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Squat & Overhead Press Technique


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I started this thread because there have been alot of training myths posted on this website over the past week.

I've been absent recently. Can you fill me in?

I don't mean to sound rude, but I'm not going to go back, do a search, find, and post the links to those thread discussions. Its to time consuming.
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In the squat video it looks like he's using some momentum to bounce back up.

Bouncing out of the hole using the stretchreflex of the muscles is essential to recover from a heavy clean, so it makes excellent sense that he would train the squat that way.

 

It seems like that movement may be dangerous and/or poor technique.

To me it seems like he is an excellent squatter .

 

4X4, i like your avatar .

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the best squat i've ever seen on the internet:

http://www.team-andro.com/wkmvideos/Kniebeugen.mpeg

That's an extreme over statement. It looks like he is slightly braking parallel which is fine for a powerlifter, but it definately wasn't a Full Squat.
the lifts posted by 4x4 are ok for powerlifters/strongman though i guess.
How is a video of a Full Squat ok for a powerlifter when a powerlifting squat is a parallel squat??
and overhead presses should probably look more like this:

http://www.team-andro.com/wkmvideos/Frontdruecken.mpeg

The bar doesn't look like its touching his clavicle. That might be the full ROM he is capable of, but I wouldn't use that video as an example of proper form for a Press.
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the depth of the squat is not the only criterion for a good technique. there are some people who are simply not able to go all the way down, at least not while keeping a good form. i prefer to keep a tight back and don't go for a full squat instead of just trying to go all the way down no matter how much your back rounds and how much swinging you're using by bouncing when coming up again. beside that i don't see much sense in that bouncing at the lowest point when you train as a bodybuilder cause it takes the work of the quads - the muscle you actually want to train. olimpic lifters may need that, for a powerlifter it could be a way to train beside their normal squatting.

 

concerning "my" videos:

squat: you see a perfect hip movement there, at the same time his upper body is held upright, his back is tight, the positive phase is explosive, the negative could be a bit slower but that's not a must.

press: he keeps a prefect tension on body and muscle all the time. same here, it's not a must to let the bar rest on your shoulders. some people do, some not. but doing presses by using mostly your legs and a lot of swinging it's just uneffective in my eyes, at least if you want to train your shoulders.

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In the squat video it looks like he's using some momentum to bounce back up.

Bouncing out of the hole using the stretchreflex of the muscles is essential to recover from a heavy clean, so it makes excellent sense that he would train the squat that way.

 

It seems like that movement may be dangerous and/or poor technique.

To me it seems like he is an excellent squatter .

 

4X4, i like your avatar .

Excellent. I'm still learning.

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the depth of the squat is not the only criterion for a good technique. there are some people who are simply not able to go all the way down, at least not while keeping a good form. i prefer to keep a tight back and don't go for a full squat instead of just trying to go all the way down no matter how much your back rounds and how much swinging you're using by bouncing when coming up again. beside that i don't see much sense in that bouncing at the lowest point when you train as a bodybuilder cause it takes the work of the quads - the muscle you actually want to train. olimpic lifters may need that, for a powerlifter it could be a way to train beside their normal squatting.

 

concerning "my" videos:

squat: you see a perfect hip movement there, at the same time his upper body is held upright, his back is tight, the positive phase is explosive, the negative could be a bit slower but that's not a must.

press: he keeps a prefect tension on body and muscle all the time. same here, it's not a must to let the bar rest on your shoulders. some people do, some not. but doing presses by using mostly your legs and a lot of swinging it's just uneffective in my eyes, at least if you want to train your shoulders.

I'm not a bodybuilder so we have different goals. I used to do parallel squats. Parallel squats put more pressure on the knees than full squats because the weight transfers onto the hips once you decend below parallel. I don't want to have the knees of a 80 year old when I'm 40. When I started dong full squats my quads, hams, and calves blew up. I used to have chicken legs. Now chicks dig my legs.

 

When I do full squats, my hamstrings touch the back of my calves and I don't bounce. Using the legs while pressing is effective for a boxer or martial artists. You are learning how to coordinate using the upper and lowerbody simultaneously and explosively, which is what you should be doing when you are throwing a punch using proper technique.

 

Push Jerks and Push presses are explosive movements that are better suited for developing punching power than a strict press.

 

You may already know the aforementioned, however some people reading this thread may not.

 

Edit: Most people can squat deeper, but they are too LAZY or don't have the patient to learn how to do it. Its an excuse. Power Jerks and Push Presses are not ineffective for strength training. Ineffective for what?? You can use more weight, therefore your shoulders get stronger. You get more bag for your buck squatting deep and heavy as far as developing quad, ham, and glute strength and mass. Full Squat 20 reppers for 6 weeks and see how big your legs get. Most guys don't squat deep because of ego.

Edited by Anonymous
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the depth of the squat is not the only criterion for a good technique.

 

True, true.

 

there are some people who are simply not able to go all the way down, at least not while keeping a good form.

 

I don't think that it's necessarily that people CAN'T go lower, but that it takes form adjustments for some to do it. If I high-bar squat, I can definitely go lower than low-bar positioning. Here's my link to my old high-bar deep squat form from my first PL competition -

 

http://www.musclebuddies.org/rsquat.mpg

 

I had lots of high-level PL'ers shaking their heads, saying "If he didn't go so deep, he'd lift more weight!" I eventually found that I just flat-out stopped making progress with high-bar squats so I moved to low-bar and that changed things and moved my progression up. But, of course, I can't hit the same depth, not because it's not possible, but because one type of squat lends itself to greater depth and the other to moving more weight in a different way.

 

i prefer to keep a tight back and don't go for a full squat instead of just trying to go all the way down no matter how much your back rounds and how much swinging you're using by bouncing when coming up again. beside that i don't see much sense in that bouncing at the lowest point when you train as a bodybuilder cause it takes the work of the quads - the muscle you actually want to train. olimpic lifters may need that, for a powerlifter it could be a way to train beside their normal squatting. [/img]

 

Believe me, with high-bar deep squats, you're not feeling any actual bounce out of the hole despite the appearance. It's WAY harder to get back up from a deep squat with a fast descent and the appearance of bounce than it is for me when doing a just-to-parallel dead-stop-on-the-pins low bar squat. Like many people say, every inch below parallel you go adds 20-40 lbs. as comparted to just hitting parallel, so it's always tougher when going deep than it is even when being more slow and controlled and not going as low. Besides, if you REALLY used a true "bounce", you'd blow out your knees in no time. It's more of simply not wasting time in the hole and being ready to rise once you know you've hit it as deep as you want to go, because any extra time spent will throw your form off and screw the lift up.

 

squat: you see a perfect hip movement there, at the same time his upper body is held upright, his back is tight, the positive phase is explosive, the negative could be a bit slower but that's not a must.

 

I don't think the clip is of a bad squat by any means, but I honestly think that he's letting his torso get more forward lean than necessary before pushing his hips back to the proper position. It looks like he's getting ready to do a good morning early on, then the hips shoot back a bit later than I'd normally expect. That's just my take on it.

 

but doing presses by using mostly your legs and a lot of swinging it's just uneffective in my eyes, at least if you want to train your shoulders.

 

Ah, the words of someone who's never tried a push press routine before A push-press or jerk is nothing like a regular press in application. I average 40-60 lbs. more on overhead pressing with leg drive than I do without, because it's a completely different animal. The push takes off some of the stress of the intial press, but once you clear about 6-9" or so, there's little to no more advantage from the leg drive if you're going heavy (unless you simultaneously dip under the bar on the catch in jerk fashion). Using push presses often HELP your strict press get better because you're A) building more core stability in handling heavier weights, B) strengthening your shoulders with overloaded weights beyond your strict press from a few inches off the shoulders to lockout, and C) overloading your triceps to handle heavier weights at lockout. It has many different functions for using leg drive, and again, much of it carries over to strict pressing as once you hit big numbers with leg drive, dropping down to strict press weights feel like you're handling a fraction of the poundages that you had done before. Denouncing push pressing is like saying that in powerlifting, using things like bands and chains don't have an application - they take a normal movement and add different increases or decreases of stresses at different points, all of which can translate to bigger numbers overall.

 

Again, not saying that there aren't many ways to do a lift, but training doesn't have to be all strict by-the-book movements to have great applications for gains in size and strength. Some of the biggest, strongest people in bodybuilding, powerlifting and strongman use what we deem as "bad form" on lifts in the textbook sense, yet they're bull-strong and are as larege as houses. Sometimes, what seems to be unorthodox can be some of the best ways to get large and strong, even if common opinion says otherwise

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I still think this is the pinnacle of beautiful squatting.

 

 

May not be rock-bottom, but man, Coan glides like he's on rails whether he's squatting 60 or 600 lbs.

Great vid. When asked how it felt to squat 900lbs, Coan said "same as 500lbs, but better concentration".

 

xPhilx - that's definitely one of the lightest squats I've seen posted on the internet. Nice find.

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Like many people say, every inch below parallel you go adds 20-40 lbs. as comparted to just hitting parallel....
VE, is this scientific fact or is it the personal experience of deep squatters.
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the depth of the squat is not the only criterion for a good technique.

 

True, true.

 

 

there are some people who are simply not able to go all the way down, at least not while keeping a good form.

 

I don't think that it's necessarily that people CAN'T go lower, but that it takes form adjustments for some to do it. If I high-bar squat, I can definitely go lower than low-bar positioning. Here's my link to my old high-bar deep squat form from my first PL competition -

 

http://www.musclebuddies.org/rsquat.mpg

 

I had lots of high-level PL'ers shaking their heads, saying "If he didn't go so deep, he'd lift more weight!" I eventually found that I just flat-out stopped making progress with high-bar squats so I moved to low-bar and that changed things and moved my progression up. But, of course, I can't hit the same depth, not because it's not possible, but because one type of squat lends itself to greater depth and the other to moving more weight in a different way.

 

nice one!

and i totally agree with you in all points here. i just don't like the high bar position and wouldn't recommend it to someone. and i neither heard a good squatter recommend it to someone.

 

i prefer to keep a tight back and don't go for a full squat instead of just trying to go all the way down no matter how much your back rounds and how much swinging you're using by bouncing when coming up again. beside that i don't see much sense in that bouncing at the lowest point when you train as a bodybuilder cause it takes the work of the quads - the muscle you actually want to train. olimpic lifters may need that, for a powerlifter it could be a way to train beside their normal squatting.

 

 

Believe me, with high-bar deep squats, you're not feeling any actual bounce out of the hole despite the appearance. It's WAY harder to get back up from a deep squat with a fast descent and the appearance of bounce than it is for me when doing a just-to-parallel dead-stop-on-the-pins low bar squat. Like many people say, every inch below parallel you go adds 20-40 lbs. as comparted to just hitting parallel, so it's always tougher when going deep than it is even when being more slow and controlled and not going as low. Besides, if you REALLY used a true "bounce", you'd blow out your knees in no time. It's more of simply not wasting time in the hole and being ready to rise once you know you've hit it as deep as you want to go, because any extra time spent will throw your form off and screw the lift up.

 

i never wanted to say that a full squat brings "bouncing" with it. all i said was that the squatter in the video 4x4 posted is doing it and that i don't see any sense i that. maybe he is not and i only think i see him doing it, maybe i'm wrong. nobody is perfect.

and again i agree with everything you said.

 

squat: you see a perfect hip movement there, at the same time his upper body is held upright, his back is tight, the positive phase is explosive, the negative could be a bit slower but that's not a must.

 

I don't think the clip is of a bad squat by any means, but I honestly think that he's letting his torso get more forward lean than necessary before pushing his hips back to the proper position. It looks like he's getting ready to do a good morning early on, then the hips shoot back a bit later than I'd normally expect. That's just my take on it.

 

to be honest, i don't see what you're talking about. in my eyes he is not leaning forward, he just pushes his hips backwards and then goes down and comes up again by pushing his hips forward again. that's it.

btw that's how i do squats, too. do you think that there is anything totally wrong with squatting like this?

 

 

but doing presses by using mostly your legs and a lot of swinging it's just uneffective in my eyes, at least if you want to train your shoulders.

 

Ah, the words of someone who's never tried a push press routine before A push-press or jerk is nothing like a regular press in application. I average 40-60 lbs. more on overhead pressing with leg drive than I do without, because it's a completely different animal. The push takes off some of the stress of the intial press, but once you clear about 6-9" or so, there's little to no more advantage from the leg drive if you're going heavy (unless you simultaneously dip under the bar on the catch in jerk fashion). Using push presses often HELP your strict press get better because you're A) building more core stability in handling heavier weights, B) strengthening your shoulders with overloaded weights beyond your strict press from a few inches off the shoulders to lockout, and C) overloading your triceps to handle heavier weights at lockout. It has many different functions for using leg drive, and again, much of it carries over to strict pressing as once you hit big numbers with leg drive, dropping down to strict press weights feel like you're handling a fraction of the poundages that you had done before. Denouncing push pressing is like saying that in powerlifting, using things like bands and chains don't have an application - they take a normal movement and add different increases or decreases of stresses at different points, all of which can translate to bigger numbers overall.

 

Again, not saying that there aren't many ways to do a lift, but training doesn't have to be all strict by-the-book movements to have great applications for gains in size and strength. Some of the biggest, strongest people in bodybuilding, powerlifting and strongman use what we deem as "bad form" on lifts in the textbook sense, yet they're bull-strong and are as larege as houses. Sometimes, what seems to be unorthodox can be some of the best ways to get large and strong, even if common opinion says otherwise

 

i got your point here but still think that i would never do a overhead press like this. but at least i know now why it's not completely wrong to do it like that, thanks.

 

I still think this is the pinnacle of beautiful squatting.

 

 

May not be rock-bottom, but man, Coan glides like he's on rails whether he's squatting 60 or 600 lbs.

 

i like his "drive". looks good to me, too.

 

xPhilx - that's definitely one of the lightest squats I've seen posted on the internet. Nice find.

 

i can't follow your argumentation here. what are you trying to say?

 

 

@4x4: yes, i know what a full squat is, thanks.

i don't get what you're trying to say with that "third world squat" pic. i know that this position is much more natural for your knees than a parallel position if that was your intention. but that doesn't make it healthier for your rounded back when you're having 400lbs on it.

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i just don't like the high bar position and wouldn't recommend it to someone. and i neither heard a good squatter recommend it to someone.

I squat high-bar and low bar, but mainly high. Not saying I'm a good squatter though.

 

xPhilx - that's definitely one of the lightest squats I've seen posted on the internet. Nice find.

 

i can't follow your argumentation here. what are you trying to say?

I'm saying that with increased weight comes truth. You can theorise about the optimal way to move weight but heavy weights will test those theories. The style displayed in the video simply wouldn't be replicated if he added 200kg (looks like he maybe has 40kg on the bar there).

 

It's by no means a bad squat, but it's clearly a light weight example squat. I also don't see that it is so much deeper than the other squat videos posted, it is only just below parallel to my eyes (which is fine).

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i just don't like the high bar position and wouldn't recommend it to someone. and i neither heard a good squatter recommend it to someone.

I squat high-bar and low bar, but mainly high. Not saying I'm a good squatter though.

 

your numbers say you are.

do you have a video of yourself from the side squatting with the high bar position? i'm always willing to learn.

 

xPhilx - that's definitely one of the lightest squats I've seen posted on the internet. Nice find.

 

i can't follow your argumentation here. what are you trying to say?

I'm saying that with increased weight comes truth. You can theorise about the optimal way to move weight but heavy weights will test those theories. The style displayed in the video simply wouldn't be replicated if he added 200kg (looks like he maybe has 40kg on the bar there).

 

It's by no means a bad squat, but it's clearly a light weight example squat. I also don't see that it is so much deeper than the other squat videos posted, it is only just below parallel to my eyes (which is fine).

 

that video was obviously made for showing a good technique. i don't think that he could 200kg that way, too but in my eyes that video shows perfectly how a squat should like as far as the movement of the body is concerned (hips, chest, etc.).

 

i never said that this squat is deeper than other ones or something like that. i actually don't even care how deep squats are as long they're below parallel and performed with a good form.

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I learned something from this thread. I figured out why I've been having difficulty getting out of the hole lately. I've been pausing at the bottom to long instead of ascending as soon as the back of my thighs touch my calves.

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Like many people say, every inch below parallel you go adds 20-40 lbs. as comparted to just hitting parallel....
VE, is this scientific fact or is it the personal experience of deep squatters.

 

Personal experience from some of the best squatters out there, plus it's a common statement among many of the top trainers who work with strength athletes. Don't know if someone's ever found a way to prove it scientifically, but if you want to find out, narrow your stance a bit and try going down until you can't go any lower. That usually puts things into perspective

 

I think it was 415 or 425 in my video clip above, which was a hard-fought max at the time (I think I hit 440 rock-bottom as my max). Once I went low-bar, widened my stance a bit and would go about 1" below parallel instead of 6 or more inches below, I was hitting my old max for multiple sets of doubles in a matter of weeks.

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