What average people think of Vegans... I always wonder...

[VeganEssentials]

PETA started out small too, and got bigger.

 

And look at the stunts they've had to pull for attention to get bigger. That's what I find frustrating - groups who don't want to shill for attention by using shock-and-awe methods to thrust their names in the media for attention get left behind. Oh well.

 

What sexism? You mean having women go naked rather than wear fur?

 

Many people find using naked women (in particular - PETA uses far less men in campaigns involving nudity) a bad way to get people to connect to animal rights. They don't think we need to show off naked folk just to get attention. This isn't one of my personal hot-buttons because I think if you want to get naked, go for it. Nevertheless, there are a LOT of people who think PETA's use of women is degrading and exploitative.

 

By the way, they parade naked men around too.

 

About 1/100th as much as they do women

 

The human form isn't offensive to me. I don't see why it should be.

 

I'm not offended by it, either. However, I still don't understand why it would make anyone consider going vegan.

 

Having something to compare it to helps people to understand the true horrible nature of factory farms in a way that they might not be able to without that reference point.

 

Which works well in THEORY, but when you haven't walked in those shoes yourself, you can say "oh, it isn't meant to hurt or offend", but you'll never know because YOU don't have to contend with the atrocities they're comparing it to. Easy to say when you're an outsider, tougher to deal with when you have had to suffer firsthand.

 

People need to stop living in the past and focus on the terrible things that are happening in our world RIGHT NOW.

 

Yep, because while something like the holocaust was only, say, 70 years ago and killed millions, we need to stop living in the past and just consider it a cultural event that we can use at will to make our own comparisons when it suits our objective regardless of what others who were directly affected might think. THAT really shows compassion right there

 

 

What about the pig's family, or the cow's family who are suffering the same thing? He needs to (and does, even if he doesn't admit it) realize that he is a HYPOCRITE, supporting the very holocaust he whines so much about even though he never actually even endured it. Just because he's Jewish he deserves sympathy? Forget that the majority of holocaust victims weren't even Jewish (another thread entirely).

 

Okay, you did NOT bother to note that I said the person was VEGAN, so he's a hypocrite because he's vegan AND offended by use of the holocaust as imagery in a PETA campaign? That's just plain stupid. Again, that's misanthropy right there - lack of concern for what you might do to make someone else misarable to further your own agenda. And where did I say he deserves sympathy because he's Jewish? I think he deserves sympathy because he lost relatives in concentration camps, that's what. He lost family to that tragic event, and you're telling him that he needs to "get over it". You seem like a wonderful person

 

If he's offended by PETA's use of what caused the murder of his relatives in a way he does not find a fair comparison, then that's his business, not yours to dictate WHEN he can be offended. Seems you have a sincere lack of compassion toward people that you don't agree with. And it comes full circle back to my misanthropy point. I particularly like your mention of "whining about the holocaust" as if it were simply a common Sunday-afternoon occurrence we can just bury in the past easily enough.

 

It's one thing to accuse something of being "blatantly offensive," but it's quite another to explain why, and personally I'm offended that he's so preoccupied with a past injustice while animals are being brutally murdered on a daily basis RIGHT NOW.

 

I said, the guy is VEGAN and is offended at the comparison. Please go back and re-read. You're simply using your lack of careful reading that point to argue something which is starting to sound anti-semitic to a wee extent, which isn't helping your case any. No idea why you'd say you're offended that someone would still find using the holocaust from a non-affected standpoint when it doesn't affect you in any way, shape or form.

[aryan]

Oh, boy, here come the insults. You're right, I didn't notice that you said he was vegan. But name calling isn't going to get anyone anywhere. When you're ready to discuss this civilly, let me know.

[VeganEssentials]

Never called you a name once. I said your statements in reference to the holocaust had an anti-semitic undertone to it, but that's it. Telling people that they need to "get over it", that it's old news, that it's foolish for feel empathy for someone who wasn't affected directly but lost family to it, etc. isn't exactly a non-judgemental attitude, you know. Somehow, you think it's a fine comparison for PETA to use and how we need to be concerned for the animal holocaust, but when it comes to people, well, we need to stop caring about it because it's in the past, eh? And saying that one's attitude is misanthropic is not name calling, that's simply making an observation.

 

Don't play the "you called me a name so you're not being civil" game with me - if you're going to try and take the heat off of your comments that you seem to want to avoid now by pulling that card out, let's just end this now. I'm always up for debate, but not when people won't be accountable for what they say and stand by it. I'm not surprised that you avoided going into detail on it, whether it actually is due to anti-semitism, sheer misanthropy or plain old callousness. Any way you call it, it's not pretty, and being vegan is NOT just about caring about the animals while simultaneously not caring about people, to where you don't give a f*ck if you are blatantly disrespectful or offensive.

[aryan]

Never called you a name once.

 

You should at least go back and edit your post before making a claim like this. You've made plenty of personal attacks while I have stuck to stating my opinions. I would ask that you please do the same. Unless you can do that, without attacking me personally, you are not being civil.

 

I said your statements in reference to the holocaust had an anti-semitic undertone to it, but that's it. Telling people that they need to "get over it", that it's old news, that it's foolish for feel empathy for someone who wasn't affected directly but lost family to it, etc. isn't exactly a non-judgemental attitude, you know.

 

You completely misunderstand me. Anytime a group of sentient beings, be they human or animal, is killed, it's a tragedy. But we can't become so preoccupied with the past that we forget about the injustices that are occurring right now.

 

Somehow, you think it's a fine comparison for PETA to use and how we need to be concerned for the animal holocaust, but when it comes to people, well, we need to stop caring about it because it's in the past, eh?

 

I don't think it's quite as pressing because it's not actually happening. If animals were no long being slaughtered and people were, I'd feel the same way. Of course it's more important to stop something that's actually happening than something that isn't.

 

And saying that one's attitude is misanthropic is not name calling, that's simply making an observation.

 

Your opinion has been dully noted.

 

Don't play the "you called me a name so you're not being civil" game with me - if you're going to try and take the heat off of your comments that you seem to want to avoid now by pulling that card out, let's just end this now. I'm always up for debate, but not when people won't be accountable for what they say and stand by it. I'm not surprised that you avoided going into detail on it, whether it actually is due to anti-semitism, sheer misanthropy or plain old callousness. Any way you call it, it's not pretty, and being vegan is NOT just about caring about the animals while simultaneously not caring about people, to where you don't give a f*ck if you are blatantly disrespectful or offensive.

 

For someone who talks about being blatantly disrespectful and offensive, this post and your last were extremely hostile. Don't talk to me about pulling cards out, when that's what you've been doing all along. I'm anti-semitic because I think that current injustices are more important than a past injustice, of which the majority's victims weren't even Jewish? Please.

 

It's a valid comparison and anytime a topic becomes so "touchy" that people can't even talk about it for fear of being called "anti-semitic" or "racist," that's a problem. The only reason anyone could think the comparison is trivializing the genocide is because they've already trivialized the mass slaughter of animals.

[VeganEssentials]

You've managed to skirt your issues of why it's acceptable to use the holocaust only in reference to animal slaughter while simultaneously stating that it's "old news" in regard to what happened to humans and we need to get over it. You use it when it suits YOUR agenda for comparison to animal slaughter, but if someone doesn't agree with you (possibly because it's affected their lives or those they knew/were related to), you don't give a toss. You keep trying to divert with things like "It wasn't even mostly Jews who were killed", by using it as an attempt to invalidate someone's feelings about a past event as if your statement had any bearing. And like I said, I never said YOU were anti-semitic, rather, your comments all pointed toward common anti-semite thought. When I asked you to defend your comments, you chose to railroad off in a different direction without any clarification. Then you turn it around so that I'm the bad guy for wanting you to explain. And here we are, you playing victim after making comments that some find offensive, never taking a moment to clarify anything but rather, to keep things off course as usual. I give up, this is the last moment I'm wasting on trying to get any logical reasoning for your comments.

 

But, back to the ORIGINAL topic, THIS is the kind of thing that can give people a negative view on vegans. Too many people think that we care only about animals, but we wouldn't stop for a second to help people or be kind to them in the same regard. Misanthropy is NOT something we want connected with the movement. In the vein of the last posts, I find it somewhat offensive to trivialize a past tragedy purely for media attention, ala the holocaust imagery used in a past PETA campaign. It manages to offend people on a large scale - not because it's making them question their dietary choices. MUCH moreso as it makes them question WHY a group who claims to want to help animals would seem to feel it necessary to exploit human suffering in order to draw a comparison. If a vegan wants to be miserable in regard to their relations with other humans, that's their choice, but tying that attitude in with veganism DOES reflect negatively on the movement.

 

I'm done with this one.

[aryan]

You've managed to skirt your issues of why it's acceptable to use the holocaust only in reference to animal slaughter while simultaneously stating that it's "old news" in regard to what happened to humans and we need to get over it. You use it when it suits YOUR agenda for comparison to animal slaughter, but if someone doesn't agree with you (possibly because it's affected their lives or those they knew/were related to), you don't give a toss. You keep trying to divert with things like "It wasn't even mostly Jews who were killed", by using it as an attempt to invalidate someone's feelings about a past event as if your statement had any bearing. And like I said, I never said YOU were anti-semitic, rather, your comments all pointed toward common anti-semite thought. When I asked you to defend your comments, you chose to railroad off in a different direction without any clarification. Then you turn it around so that I'm the bad guy for wanting you to explain. And here we are, you playing victim after making comments that some find offensive, never taking a moment to clarify anything but rather, to keep things off course as usual. I give up, this is the last moment I'm wasting on trying to get any logical reasoning for your comments.

 

Again, you've completely misrepresented me and my views.

 

But, back to the ORIGINAL topic, THIS is the kind of thing that can give people a negative view on vegans. Too many people think that we care only about animals, but we wouldn't stop for a second to help people or be kind to them in the same regard. Misanthropy is NOT something we want connected with the movement. In the vein of the last posts, I find it somewhat offensive to trivialize a past tragedy purely for media attention, ala the holocaust imagery used in a past PETA campaign. It manages to offend people on a large scale - not because it's making them question their dietary choices. MUCH moreso as it makes them question WHY a group who claims to want to help animals would seem to feel it necessary to exploit human suffering in order to draw a comparison. If a vegan wants to be miserable in regard to their relations with other humans, that's their choice, but tying that attitude in with veganism DOES reflect negatively on the movement.

 

I've already explained that the brochure wasn't trivializing anything, and why.

 

I'm done with this one.

 

 

Thank God for that, though I recall someone on this forum saying something along the lines of...

 

Don't play the "you called me a name so you're not being civil" game with me - if you're going to try and take the heat off of your comments that you seem to want to avoid now by pulling that card out, let's just end this now. I'm always up for debate, but not when people won't be accountable for what they say and stand by it.

 

By the way, since you refuse to be civil, I'll go ahead and tell you that you are one of the most immature, illogical, melodramatic, rude, hostile, arrogant, self-righteous, dishonest, manipulative person I've ever had the displeasure of encountering, and anyone who dedicates so much time and energy to working out must be trying to compensate for something.

 

Bye!

[Ruz]

Ohh..what a shame it's over!

No...its sad to see things get nasty on the net when probably, if you were talking face to face, things would have been different! We should al remember that when reading comments, we miss out on half smiles, sarcastic tones and a whole other range of subtle changes in the voice, and body language which help to transmit the real feelings of the speaker, or soften the harshness of what they are saying. I have personally been banned from this site before for getting into an argument which got out of control, but after having re-joined the website with a differennt nick, have found that I actually get on really well with the girl I argued with in the first place. I made a sarcastic jokey comment and of course, written downn it just didn't sound the same and so the problems started...I feel that something similar has happened here and if you two were face to face chatting over drinks, you wouldn't be wanting to rip each other's throats out at this point and would probably have come to an understanding and formed a friendship. You are obviously BOTH very intelligent and ethical people!

As regards the specific argument in this case, I happen to see both your points..especially with the PETA reference to the holocaust.

Personally, as a long time vegan I have come to a point where I feel my life is of no more importance than that of any other animal. The comparisons PETA made between the Jews and animals on intensive farms IS a very valid one in my opinion! In reality, you don't need that much intelligence at all to suffer fear and lonliness and obviously pain, and anyone who has ever been on the inside of an intensive farm will be able to accept such a comparision without problem.

However, PETA should really consult a psychologist or someone like that before using images and comparsions like that for the mass public. A new vegan, or vegeterian will often take many years to really internalize anti-speciesism (I remember myself saying "I know it's right but I just dont FEEL it yet") and although against animal cruelty, will be unable to fully accept such a comparision..for meat eaters, this comparision would and did result either as offensive or ridiculous!

As I have got older I have seen the benefit of using psychology when talking about veganism, or protesting. For example, If you go to a bullfight and start shouting insults at the people waiting to go in, all you'll do is put them on the offensive and make them think you are a lunatic because most of them have been educated by loving parents to think that their actions are right and so will see you as a crazy freak. In the same way you can show people what happens on intensive farms without saying "you're responsible for this you NAZI" which is what PETA did. Afterall, 90% weren't born to a vegan family and most of us have eaten meat at some time!

All you have to do is show them how the animals suffer, they will make the connection but the second YOU accuse them they will close their ears and their minds and you'll have lost the battle, and maybe even the war.

As an ex ALF activist, you have to understanding this way of thinking was very difficult for me to achieve, but now its as clear as day. And although I must say it is very enjoyable to insult animal abusers, you'll never get them to change in this way.

If you want someone to change you have to stop accusing and come from a point of understanding i.e. "I know you were educated to enjoy bullfights, and your family are good people, I'd just like you to think about....etc" By any standards it's hard not to get angry and the insulting is much more fun when you are confronted with animal abusers..problem is like that all you will achieve is giving all other vegans a bad name. If you wanna burn down a farm or blow up a shop do it! Personally I'm all for financial sabotage...but you need to employ different tactics when dealing directly with people..PETA need to learn this!

PETA's stunts are brilliant at attracting media attention which could be very positive, but I think at present, some of their actions are misguided and cause vegans a lot of harm and in particular, that comparision they drew between the Jews and farm animals...Who TF would understand that apart from a hardcore vegan? I haven't met a meat eater yet who hasn't been angered by that comparision, however valid it may be!

Anyway guys.. I really don't want to get into another argument here so I won't respond to ANYTHING you may say about my opinions, because this is the internet and things get blown out of proportion easily!

peace and please remember..under other circumstances you'd probably be the best of friends because you both clearly have a lot of passion about your beliefs.

[blabbate]

Your opinion has been dully noted.

I think this is unintentionally the most accurate thing you've said in this thread.