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Really sick and tired of making no progress.....


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I wasn't going to post this but I am really at the end of my tether. I entered a gym for the first time in my life toward the end of 2006 and started working with a personal trainer, my intention being to lose weight and gain muscle. The PT told me I 'would struggle' to gain muscle on a vegan diet and after the last session I had with him, I mentioned that I was pleased with the progress I had made and he replied 'Just think of the gains you would see if you ate meat'. Feeling disillusioned I started doing bodyweight only exercises after reading that weights weren't needed to build muscle.

 

I have had some ups and downs over the years, but here we are in July 2009 and my physique resembles the middle picture in jj4479's progress pics here:

 

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=18392

 

 

I had wished that I would have at least 'fitness model' body by now, but I have nothing of the sort. I feel like it is going to be impossible to lose my gut and get a six pack and have already been researching doctors to perform liposuction.

 

I really don't know what else I can do, I have always felt completely confused and bewildered when it comes to working out meal plans as there seems to be so much conflicting information out there. I feel like giving up, I really do.

 

Can anyone relate or give me advice? I really do feel like crap at the minute.

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You have lost some body fat, and that is great. Now to get to your second goal. I have to say most trainers out there are bullshit. Go to a 24 Hour Fitness or other chain athletic club, you are likely to find a 22 year old with no experience. Their main job is to sell you on the club, the club's supplement lines, and get in your pocket. Now, there are some great trainers who work in these facilities, but they are few and far between. I have found good trainers to be a god send. I owe a lot to good advice from trainers over the years who have really helped me with physique through learning diet, and getting good training advice.

 

The key to getting where you want to be is consistency. Consistent diet and training. Start with your baseline. What is your current weight, body fat percentage, diet, workout routine, and goal? From there you can make a plan to get where you want to go.

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I know vegans can make great gains every time I visit this website.

 

The Vegan Brothers in Iron inspire me every day.

 

That being said, you CAN achieve your goals! I'm an ectomorph, meaning that I gain muscle very slowly, but have no problem losing fat. I've been told the best way to train my body is to just go for strength. Now, I don't know what kind of body you have, because even ectos can have stubborn body fat!

 

My advice to you would be to change your routine, just for a few weeks. The body plateaus very easily, and if you go from doing a bodyweight routine to a weight training routine, your muscles will be shocked and will start to grow, and of course more muscle = less body fat.

 

Try doing compound exercises, and mix in some bodyweight exercises too. Pull-ups and dips are amazing and you should definitely keep those in your routine. Try doing some barbell squats, dead-lifts, bench-presses, military presses, and other things. Diet is also important, so always make sure you eat right

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Thanks for all the helpful suggestions. I just can't believe I have been training for so long and got nowhere. The diet side of things is probably where I am going wrong, but there is so much conflicting information out there it makes my head spin. If only there was some book written by vegans for vegans with regard to a bodybuilding diet it would be a dream come true. Maybe one day someone will write it? Until then I fear I will just get more and more frustrated.

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The diet side of things is probably where I am going wrong, but there is so much conflicting information out there it makes my head spin. If only there was some book written by vegans for vegans with regard to a bodybuilding diet it would be a dream come true. Maybe one day someone will write it? Until then I fear I will just get more and more frustrated.
Even if you were to survey all of the successful vegan bodybuilders on this site, their diets would vary fairly widely. There are definitely some basic rules, but beyond that people's bodies are different and react better to some methods over others. If you're not happy with how you're been progressing, change it up. For example you've read that bodyweight exercises are all that's necessary... but if it's not working go back to weighted exercises. Same goes for diet. Experiment and see what feels right.
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Are you training as hard as you could be though?

 

I don't know if you are or aren't, but at the end of the day you get out what you put in, so if you not giving it your all in training - at least some of the time - then your results will be limited to an extent.

 

Do you just lift weights? I'd recommend cross-training to help shift the fat, some form of cardio, circuit training etc.

 

Depends how much you want it at the end of the day.

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I have done just about everything I can think of to lose weight; jogging, running, eating a restricted calorie diet, as many press ups, chin ups, dips and ab exercises that I physically can do. Diet wise, I have tried everything I can think of, but get so confused at what to eat with the amount of conflicting information out there. I just can't seem to get anywhere. Maybe my body just wasn't meant to be in shape or I have a certain genetic make up that prohibits muscle growth or weight loss?

 

So frustrating!

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Maybe my body just wasn't meant to be in shape or I have a certain genetic make up that prohibits muscle growth or weight loss?
Sorry for the harsh words, but bullshit. EVERYONE can lose excess weight, it's just a matter of burning more than you take in. It's a slow process and it completely sucks because food tastes so good, but your genes can't violate the laws of thermodynamics. Your body needs to pull energy from somewhere and if it can't get enough from food it comes from your fat stores or muscles.

 

Muscle growth on the other hand is a bit more difficult. Everyone should be able to make considerable gains in strength and bulk, but beyond that there is a genetic component. Some people are just naturally more muscular and the rest of us are struggling to keep up. There's still progress to be made but it can be slow and seem impossible at times.

 

You can do it, you just have to lay out what you've tried so far and determine what makes sense going forward.

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Also, have you asked yourself if you are truly doing ALL that you can?

 

If you are working with a trainer; I don't doubt you are working your ass off in your workouts. That I believe.

 

But are you doing everything you possibly can?

 

If I want to get rid of the fat on my ass... do you know how much cardio I have to do?

 

2 hours a day 6 days a week. Yep. You read it right.

 

I remember reading of a fitness competitor who had to do 3 HOURS of cardio a day and eat no more than 600 - 800 calories because she had an extremely underactive thyroid and this was the only way she would see results.

 

In other instances, there are guys who can't see any muscle gain unless they are eating over 5,000 calories a day.

 

So I challenge you to ask yourself.... do you TRULY feel you are doing everything you can?

 

Maybe you are a hard gainer. Maybe your not doing enough cardio. Maybe your not eating enough protein. But have you TRULY tried everything? Have you tried taking out most of your processed meats and eating cleaner?

 

Sometimes I feel that what we truly yearn for... is for the answers to be EASIER.

 

I mean... how jealous am I of a 23 year old that can shed the same amount of bodyfat as me on 20 minutes of cardio a day? EXTREMELY jealous. But it's condusive to how bad I want it. I do what it takes because that is how bad I want it.

 

Maybe you ARE doing everything you possibly can... but if not, ask yourself some hard questions... how BAD do you want it?

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Thank you for your concern everyone, but I feel I truly have done everything I can, worked my ass off, probably even done *too much* exercise at some points. I have read the Body For Life Book, The Abs Diet, all manner of things from sites such as this but have got pretty much nowhere.

 

I couldn't say exactly how many grams of protein I eat a day, but I consume plenty of seeds, tofu, seitan, beans, rice and fake meats and I am sure I get more than enough protein.

 

I simply don't feel that gaining a decent body is possible for me , I think it must be something to do with my genetic make up that restricts me, it seems impossible for me to lose the last bit of body fat and to build muscle.

 

veggieprincess, yes I truly believe over the last few years I have truly done everything I could do, I could pay 200 dollars to access your routine and diet plan, but I doubt you could give me anything new. I wonder whether you are actually just trying to sell your routine to me or really wanting to offer me helpful advice?

 

If one day someone comes out with a definitive guide to creating a great body through a vegan diet then I will buy it, but so far nobody has. I think a lot of people on forums such as this do a *great disservice* to veganism by keeping these exercise and dietary secrets to themselves. Clearly there are methods that work, but they are nigh on impossible for people like me to access and we are left to burrow through endless rhetoric to try and find the truth.

 

Why the hell aren't the 'vegan bodybuilders' helping others to develop killer physiques and thus promoting veganism rather than just keeping it all to themselves?

 

Sorry, but I am becoming very disillusioned and I don't think I should blanme myself, as I have exercised my ass off.

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I feel your pain. I have been at it for approximately 20 years w/ nothing really to show for it. I have gained and lost 20 pounds or more many times, but always end up where I started. The gain was usually half muscle and half fat. Whe n I dieted off the fat the muscle would go w/ it. But I enjoy working out and the search for the "holy grail" is kind of fun.

 

You might find some answers here:

 

http://www.ironaddicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9696&highlight=skinny-fat

 

search "skinny-fat", hardgainer, and ectomorph on that site. There is a ton of info.

 

or here:

 

http://www.higher-faster-sports.com/skinnyfatecto2.html

 

I made as good, if not better gains, w/ bodyweight training than weights, so I would say either can work. I am currently experimenting w/ VRT/DVR training. My results so far are promising.

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Seitan Man, are you an ectomorph? I am. It's very frustrating being a vegan ectomorph because people with our body types have a horrible time gaining muscle on meaty diets, nevermind vegan ones.

 

There are some key points to remember as an ecto..

 

1. Eat every 2-3 hours. Eat high calorie foods like nuts, and get lots of protein from brown rice, beans, tempeh, and other wholesome sources. 1 gram per pound of bodyweight should be enough, maybe even more.

 

2. Feel free to eat carbs. Ectos burn carbs for energy. I literally have to eat RIGHT before a workout something starchy and full of carbs whether it be pasta, white rice, dates, bananas, or something along those lines or I feel weak and get shaky during my workout.

 

3. Limit your caffeine intake. It'll make you burn calories faster and you do not want that.

 

4. Don't weight train more than 45 minutes a session. Split up your days and do a lot of heavy, compound lifting. 3-4 days a week should be plenty. Do this while cutting body fat too to limit muscle loss. Do power moves like bench presses and squats.

 

5. Get plenty of sleep. We're talking 10 hours a night, maybe even more. Growth hormone is released during sleep.

 

6. If you can afford to buy supplements, then take them. Try creatine and protein shakes to increase your amino acid intake.

 

7. Sometimes the time of day you work out helps. I work out at night, and after I get home I eat as much as I possibly can. I pig right out, and I relax. My body has an elevated metabolism at that point, so I choose to take it easy to avoid burning excess calories.

 

Most of the time, ectomorphs spend too much time in the gym and end up compromising their results. That's why I suggested to lift for no more than 45 minutes because after that you're burning too much energy, and your body will have a tougher time to recover. Ectos have long recovery times, hence why I mentioned to eat a lot and get lots of sleep.

 

I've spent many hours researching this information on sites like T-Nation, bodybuilding.com, and other things. I hope that some of it helps you.

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Seitan Man, are you an ectomorph? I am. It's very frustrating being a vegan ectomorph because people with our body types have a horrible time gaining muscle on meaty diets, nevermind vegan ones.

 

There are some key points to remember as an ecto..

 

1. Eat every 2-3 hours. Eat high calorie foods like nuts, and get lots of protein from brown rice, beans, tempeh, and other wholesome sources. 1 gram per pound of bodyweight should be enough, maybe even more.

 

2. Feel free to eat carbs. Ectos burn carbs for energy. I literally have to eat RIGHT before a workout something starchy and full of carbs whether it be pasta, white rice, dates, bananas, or something along those lines or I feel weak and get shaky during my workout.

 

3. Limit your caffeine intake. It'll make you burn calories faster and you do not want that.

 

4. Don't weight train more than 45 minutes a session. Split up your days and do a lot of heavy, compound lifting. 3-4 days a week should be plenty. Do this while cutting body fat too to limit muscle loss. Do power moves like bench presses and squats.

 

5. Get plenty of sleep. We're talking 10 hours a night, maybe even more. Growth hormone is released during sleep.

 

6. If you can afford to buy supplements, then take them. Try creatine and protein shakes to increase your amino acid intake.

 

7. Sometimes the time of day you work out helps. I work out at night, and after I get home I eat as much as I possibly can. I pig right out, and I relax. My body has an elevated metabolism at that point, so I choose to take it easy to avoid burning excess calories.

 

Most of the time, ectomorphs spend too much time in the gym and end up compromising their results. That's why I suggested to lift for no more than 45 minutes because after that you're burning too much energy, and your body will have a tougher time to recover. Ectos have long recovery times, hence why I mentioned to eat a lot and get lots of sleep.

 

I've spent many hours researching this information on sites like T-Nation, bodybuilding.com, and other things. I hope that some of it helps you.

 

Thanks Marcina, although that is pretty much what I have done. I couldn't sleep for 10 hours though, I would feel terrible the next day.

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Why the hell aren't the 'vegan bodybuilders' helping others to develop killer physiques and thus promoting veganism rather than just keeping it all to themselves?

Pretty much all the guys on this site use a gym, lift weights. If you were receptive to what they had to say I don't think you'd have decided bodyweight only exercises were the way to go.

 

I don't think working hard is enough either, you have to learn to be effective. I don't want to always bring it back to being strong, but if you are struggling to gain size I think trying to get stronger is a good starting point. Did you learn how to do the big exercises effectively? How did you get on with those?

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I actually started off from day one by working with a personal trainer. I literally had never set foot in a gym before and he showed me about proper lifting, form and everything else. I found when I started to do bodyweight exercises my strength increased dramtically, although due to having a small frame, I always knew that would put me at a disadvantage compared with some 6'3" guy in terms of strength. I stopped working with the trainer as he was very dismissive of the vegan diet and told me that I would struggle to build a decent body without animal protein.

 

Why are bodyweight exercises so inferior to weights btw? Don't gymnasts develop great physiques without lifting weights? A far as a workout routine goes, there are zillions of books out there dedicated to that subject, it is just trying to adapt bodybuilding meal plans for a vegan diet is so complicated and there is no way to get a straight answer about diet, usually all I get is codescending remarks and aggression.

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I actually started off from day one by working with a personal trainer. I literally had never set foot in a gym before and he showed me about proper lifting, form and everything else. I found when I started to do bodyweight exercises my strength increased dramtically, although due to having a small frame, I always knew that would put me at a disadvantage compared with some 6'3" guy in terms of strength. I stopped working with the trainer as he was very dismissive of the vegan diet and told me that I would struggle to build a decent body without animal protein.

 

Why are bodyweight exercises so inferior to weights btw? Don't gymnasts develop great physiques without lifting weights? A far as a workout routine goes, there are zillions of books out there dedicated to that subject, it is just trying to adapt bodybuilding meal plans for a vegan diet is so complicated and there is no way to get a straight answer about diet, usually all I get is codescending remarks and aggression.

There's nothing wrong with bodyweight exercises, and some of the top gymnasts in the world have impressive physiques (although I believe many train with weights). However weightlifting is the tried and tested easiest way to build muscle. If you are struggling, why take the hardest routes? I guarantee you I can teach you to squat and deadlift before I could teach you the pommel horse and iron cross.

 

Why does the PT who told you that you would struggle without animal protein carry so much more clout for you than the vegans who tell you wont? Especially when those vegans are managing to build muscle themselves.

 

Bodybuilding meal plans are overkill. It is in the magazines' and websites' interest to make things appear complicated so that they can offer the solution. Things aren't complicated.

 

In my experience most hardgainers just don't know how to lift heavy weights. Their technique wouldn't allow it, so talk of whether their genetics would is pointless.

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Gymnasts work out about 5-8 hours a day. Do that and your bodyweight routine might work.

You have to see the problem in doing only bodyweight excersise. If you want to loose fat and succeed you will loose bodyweight and by that acctually decease the weight you are lifting, which is the opposite of what you should do. Also, how do you acctually fatigue your legs on bodyweight excersises, seems impossible to me. There are a lot of disagreements when it comes to the perfect volume of a set to build muscle, but mostly it ranges in between 3-16 reps. No one will ever say 40 reps is the best way to go, at least not with a straight face. And my guess is that some of your excersises will be pretty high rep as your strength develops.

Now honestly, we are here to help you. But if you want a real fitness body you're going to need a real fitness routine and a real fitness diet. VeggiePrincess has chosen to become a professional trainer and being a member here might put her in a tight spot since this is a free forum, but I get the feeling you are somehow talking down to her. I did not get the impression that she's trying to sell her services to you, I think she's only trying to help you.

 

If one day someone comes out with a definitive guide to creating a great body through a vegan diet

There will never be a book like that for vegans, or for omnis, vegetarians, carnivores or whatever. It is simply asking too much. Since the bodyweight routine isn't giving you the results you want, would you consider switching to free weights?

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A lot of folks have found the book very helpful and it's advice really helped them change themselves. So what is your background in nutrition you seem to have quite an understanding yet don't know how to put it all together for your purposes?

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I don't really like gyms to be honest and was actually thinking of creating my own 'weights' by filling plastic water jugs with sand etc. Surely chin ups and tricep dips are good exercises for bulding up biceps and triceps though?

 

I know enough about nutrition to stay healthy, but this is what my typical meal plan for a day would be:

 

Breakfast: Museli or oatmeal with banana, soy milk, pumpkin seeds. Maybe beans on toast. Cereal bar.

 

Mid morning: Couscous or mixed bean salad, maybe some fruit.

 

Lunch: Large salad with either tofu or fake meat, sometimes falafel. Soy yoghurt. Sometimes wholemeal bread based sandwiches.

 

Dinner: Could be seitan and noodles, veggie burgers and mixed veg, lentil casserole. Sometimes rice and beans.

 

Late night snack: Fruit or a few pieces of soy meat, with hummus.

 

During the day I drink nettle tea, sometimes green tea or normal tea with soy milk.

 

 

I do about 30 mins cardio a day, sometimes more depending on how tired I am after work.

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okay, so just for sh*@ts and giggles I threw your diet into a software program just to see what your ratios are in a typical day. Now I have no idea the quantity that you are eating of these items, so I had to guestimate. I picked the higher protein items too like the seitan, veggie meats, tofu... and I went middle of the road on the carbs, assuming that your not weighing and measuring the items... so I figured a couple cups of noodles when you had seitan and noodles, maybe 1 1/2 cups of couscous... again, just going middle of the road, not too much, not too little.

 

Here is what I came up with:

 

2219 calories

64 grams fat

340 carbs

115 grams sugar

101 grams protein

 

Ratio breakdown: Approximately 58% carbs, 17% protein, 25% fat

 

So, in your opinion... you are doing everything you can for your nutrition??

 

Lets compare these ratios to what Lean and Green said that his body requires to build muscle. In the protein thread, he states that he needs nearly 400 grams of protein when he is in a building phase. Even if we were to up the protein grams significantly... that's still about 2 1/2 times to 3 times more than you are currently eating... yet you FEEL you are doing everything you can to build muscle.

 

I don't want to turn this thread into a protein debate... I simply disagree that you are doing everything you can to change your physique when it comes to your nutrition. You feel you are doing "enough"....

 

And as xjohanx said... I was a little offended at your post suggesting that I was "peddling" my services because I don't want to work with people who don't feel that I could help them. Trust me, I don't. People who feel that way tend to cause me more frustration than anything, so its usually not worth the money to me. I feel my time is better served with people who will actually do the program I give them rather than starting off thinking it won't work.

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That is a surprising break down. The diet seitan man posted doesn't seem all that fattening. I eat a similar way when I'm building, but I usually have protein shakes which puts me more on the path L&G takes. When i was seriously building I was taking in about 250g protein a day. Didn't worry about the fat too much and I tended to eat brown rice, maybe some pasta at dinner as far as carbs go. Clif bars for sure! Thanks for doing that analysis pincess, it makes me think I need to be watching what I eat while I don't have a gym membership.

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