Is there a limit on how much you can strengthen your bones?

[Couture547]

Yes and they don't have access to automobiles either, they have to walk to get there. meaning they get much more exercise than the average westerner who is waited on hand and foot, and sits behind a desk.

No I think the more you learn and the more you read you will see that the word out on the street is exercise is pivital to good health reguardless of what you eat. With one exception and that is you have such a poor nutritional diet that you succumb to diseases.

 

Yes exericse is improtant for any diet as is diet is important for any exericse routine. Bad diet is benefited by exercise, but so is a healthy diet. Exercise can't replace what is gained from a health diet like a healthy diet can't do what exercise can. they go together like a horse and carriage. But i think we've all seen enough world class athletes wear down and end up dieing at a very young age where most the people i know that lived very long like my greart aunt didn't really exercise that much at all but eat everything in small amounts

[Vegan Joe]

Yes exericse is improtant for any diet as is diet is important for any exericse routine. Bad diet is benefited by exercise, but so is a healthy diet. Exercise can't replace what is gained from a health diet like a healthy diet can't do what exercise can. they go together like a horse and carriage. But i think we've all seen enough world class athletes wear down and end up dieing at a very young age where most the people i know that lived very long like my greart aunt didn't really exercise that much at all but eat everything in small amounts

For the average person exercise will over a persons life have greater benifits than not eating hamburger, as omnis has been proving for years.

Would you please figure out how to get the quotes correct. Thanks

Edited August 7, 2009 by Vegan Joe

[Couture547]

For the average person exercise will over a persons life have greater benifits than not eating hamburger.

Would you please figure out how to get the quotes correct. Thanks

 

 

Disagree strongly. Most the diseases in the west are from excess not underdoing. Exercise is allways a good idea like they say never a bad idea to do the right thing, but what do people die from now more then ever before? Cancer/ heart disease/ diabeties ect. Exercises helps but if your a walking heart attack it's best to look at what your doing in the kitchen. Plus obesity is huge which contributes to these as well and is mostly about diet unless of course your young with great genetics or are a endurance athlete

[Vegan Joe]

Westerners who have good exercise programs facilitating good weight aren't the ones in the hospital. Being overweight has very little to do with diet. it's mostly about total caloric intake, and not enough exercise.

Omnis continue to prove these facts.

 

Would you please figure out how to get the quotes correct. Thanks

[Couture547]

Westerners who have good exercise programs facilitating good weight aren't the ones in the hospital. Being overweight has very little to do with diet. it's mostly about total caloric intake, and not enough exercise.

 

Would you please figure out how to get the quotes correct. Thanks

 

 

Calorie intake and diet are the same thing. Show me a person that can eat compete sad and keep there calories in check without depriving themselves. Being overweight is mostly to do with diet. Never met anyone eatting a healthy diet that is obese and see people daily that train extremely hard in grappling that are over 25 percent bf and a couple over 40 percent.

[Vegan Joe]

Calorie intake and diet are the same thing.

Being on a vegan diet has nothing to do the amount of your caloric intake.

Hense fat and skinny Vegan.

 

Show me a person that can eat compete sad and keep there calories in check without depriving themselves.

There are all kinds of people. You seem to want to streotype them all.

 

Being overweight is mostly to do with diet.

No being over weight has only to do with eating more calories then your body consumes.

 

Never met anyone eatting a healthy diet that is obese and see people daily that train extremely hard in grappling that are over 25 percent bf and a couple over 40 percent.

Apparently your traveling in the wrong circle of people. Once again you want to sterotype all people to fit into your little neat formular. Well sorry to say it's not as simple and straight forward as you would like to believe.

 

PS Thanks for fixing that.

[Couture547]

Calorie intake and diet are the same thing.

Being on a vegan diet has nothing to do the amount of your caloric intake.

Hense fat and skinny Vegan.

 

Show me a person that can eat compete sad and keep there calories in check without depriving themselves.

There are all kinds of people. You seem to want to streotype them all.

 

Being overweight is mostly to do with diet.

No being over weight has only to do with eating more calories then your body consumes.

 

Never met anyone eatting a healthy diet that is obese and see people daily that train extremely hard in grappling that are over 25 percent bf and a couple over 40 percent.

Apparently your traveling in the wrong circle of people. Once again you want to sterotype all people to fit into your little neat formular. Well sorry to say it's not as simple and straight forward as you would like to believe.

 

PS Thanks for fixing that.

 

 

Your definition of a healthy diet and mine are probably two totally different things. Being vegan tells what you don't eat not what you do, so you can be on a vegan diet that is crap. And yes i've never seen or heard about a obese person on a really healthy diet. and if they say they are then there lieing. No point in going around in circles here becasue everyone that knows anything knows you need both proper diet(not just proper calories) and exercise for optimal health

[Vegan Joe]

Calorie intake and diet are the same thing.

Being on a vegan diet has nothing to do the amount of your caloric intake.

Hense fat and skinny Vegan.

 

Show me a person that can eat compete sad and keep there calories in check without depriving themselves.

There are all kinds of people. You seem to want to streotype them all.

 

Being overweight is mostly to do with diet.

No being over weight has only to do with eating more calories then your body consumes.

 

Never met anyone eatting a healthy diet that is obese and see people daily that train extremely hard in grappling that are over 25 percent bf and a couple over 40 percent.

Apparently your traveling in the wrong circle of people. Once again you want to sterotype all people to fit into your little neat formular. Well sorry to say it's not as simple and straight forward as you would like to believe.

 

PS Thanks for fixing that.

 

 

Your definition of a healthy diet and mine are probably two totally different things. Being vegan tells what you don't eat not what you do, so you can be on a vegan diet that is crap. And yes i've never seen or heard about a obese person on a really healthy diet. and if they say they are then there lieing. No point in going around in circles here becasue everyone that knows anything knows you need both proper diet(not just proper calories) and exercise for optimal health

Ever admit that you were wrong?

I have a hard time doing that too.

[Couture547]

Not at all, in fact i'd love to be wrong on this one, so i can eat whatever i want and not think about nutrition. But i've yet to see something on this post were i'm wrong. my stance Exercise and diet are needed for ideal health and there's no substitute for either, but i do belive that for health and longevtiy very moderate exercise is needed and certainly there's no need to lift weight to live long. every day activity like people have been doing forever will do the trick. But you can tell yourself whatever you like to try and justifily your poor eatting habits

[Vegan Joe]

Not at all, in fact i'd love to be wrong on this one, so i can eat whatever i want and not think about nutrition. But i've yet to see something on this post were i'm wrong. my stance Exercise and diet are needed for ideal health and there's no substitute for either, but i do belive that for health and longevtiy very moderate exercise is needed and certainly there's no need to lift weight to live long. every day activity like people have been doing forever will do the trick. But you can tell yourself whatever you like to try and justifily your poor eatting habits

 

Dude you're in denial,

Not to mention, you think you're a know it all.

You don't want to hear what other people are saying.

It no doubt stems from some self esteem issues you have.

Here is just one point that you are wrong about.

 

 

Calorie intake and diet are the same thing.

These are two different things, which I tried to explain to you. But you don't want to see, or hear the truth, because it would mean that you are wrong.

 

Very sad

[Couture547]

Not at all, in fact i'd love to be wrong on this one, so i can eat whatever i want and not think about nutrition. But i've yet to see something on this post were i'm wrong. my stance Exercise and diet are needed for ideal health and there's no substitute for either, but i do belive that for health and longevtiy very moderate exercise is needed and certainly there's no need to lift weight to live long. every day activity like people have been doing forever will do the trick. But you can tell yourself whatever you like to try and justifily your poor eatting habits

 

Dude you're in denial,

Not to mention, you think you're a know it all.

You don't want to hear what other people are saying.

It no doubt stems from some self esteem issues you have.

Here is just one point that you are wrong about.

 

 

Calorie intake and diet are the same thing.

These are two different things, which I tried to explain to you. But you don't want to see, or hear the truth, because it would mean that you are wrong.

 

Very sad

 

 

Calorie intake is 1 major factor that makes up a diet, so where am i wrong? You can get 2K from organic whole foods or you can get 2 K from Mcd's but on the crap food you get very little nutrients therefore weak bones down the road

[Vegan Joe]

Calorie intake and diet are the same thing.

These are two different things, which I tried to explain to you. But you don't want to see, or hear the truth, because it would mean that you are wrong.

 

Very sad :roll

 

 

Calorie intake is 1 major factor that makes up a diet, so where am i wrong? You can get 2K from organic whole foods or you can get 2 K from Mcd's but on the crap food you get very little nutrients therefore weak bones down the road

 

Dude it's a flatout incorrect statement. Go sell it to the fat lady, and come back when you not afraid to face the truth.

[Couture547]

Dude it's a flatout incorrect statement. Go sell it to the fat lady, and come back when you not afraid to face the truth.

 

 

 

and where is the incorrect statement? that junk food has little to no nutrients? and that little nutrients in the diet have a bad effect on bone health? or that you can get 2K from health food or junk food?

[Vegan Joe]

I know your serious, so I'm just going to leave it alone.

I'm going to go laugh myself to sleep.

Thanks Couture547

[Couture547]

Sounds goood, i'll try to laugh with you not at you. Before you respond back go educate yourself a bit, go read something like The China Study where they have real studies with evidence instead of saying stuff like It's a fact that lifting weight on a bad diet is better for bone health then a perfect diet with no lifting or whatever it was that you said. You have nothing backing any of your statements besides that weights are good and exercise is good, No shit. i'm done arguing with someone that is clueless. Good night!

[Vegan Joe]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_it_all

 

Know-it-all

 

A know-it-all or know-all is either someone who has a large amount of knowledge or someone who professes to have a large amount of knowledge, but who actually knows very little at all ...

 

Lloyd makes no such distinction, although he notes that ironically, Know-It-Alls can sometimes know what they are talking about, and simply have such a brusque style of communication that people are unwilling to listen. He characterizes Know-It-Alls as superficially domineering and controlling, but insecure underneath. The outward focus on the inferiority of their fellows is intended to mask the inner sense of their own weaknesses in knowledge, skills, and competence. ...

 

Lloyd observes that getting a point across to a Know-It-All can sometimes be difficult, and require much repetition, because such people are more interested in what they themselves are saying than in listening to others.

[Couture547]

Pot calling the kettle black, how does irony taste?

[a2thej2008]

Im going to have to go with Couture on this one, saying that a poor diet and weight training would be better than, a great diet without it? really? I mean come on really?

 

But if its a fact show me a study and i may become a believer

 

 

~AJ

[socalfusions]

Thanks for the fast responses. So a raw vegan diet in addition to weight bearing exercises would be the best way to increase bone strength? When I see athletes, particularly in MMA such as Fedor Emelianenko, I'm amazed at his ability to dominate in every aspect of the sport but one of his biggest weaknesses is broken bones and cuts to his skin. He is a carnivore which naturally is a highly acidic lifestyle and perhaps could attribute to his weakened bone strength? I sometimes ponder what he could acheive with a vegan diet.

 

 

Big fan of Fedor here. no he's not a carnivore at all, He eats a ton of potatoes and a bunch of plant foods, but also eats animal foods. The main reason he breaks his hands is becasue his ground and pound is so hard much more so then other fighters and the way he punches some times he hits with the small to knuncles

 

Ya I meant to say omnivore woops Exactly his unorthodox striking is the reason why he breaks his hand bones so frequently in addition to his relentlessness. I assume since Fedor probably has one of the most rigorous weight bearing exercise routines along with his other workouts that he has pretty solid bone strength although I hear he eats pretty care free like his fight with Crocop he ate bacon, eggs, and sausage the day before the fight. So pretty much if Fedor breaks bones does that mean anyone else would to if they were competing at his level and fought with his style?

 

Another interesting thing I came across after I read VeganJoe's article on beet root juice increasing stamina viewtopic.php?f=46&t=18859 was that Fedors favorite food is Borsch which contains beets as a main ingredient. Could this be one of his secret weapons that allows him to NEVER gas in a fight?

[Couture547]

Ya I meant to say omnivore woops Exactly his unorthodox striking is the reason why he breaks his hand bones so frequently in addition to his relentlessness. I assume since Fedor probably has one of the most rigorous weight bearing exercise routines along with his other workouts that he has pretty solid bone strength although I hear he eats pretty care free like his fight with Crocop he ate bacon, eggs, and sausage the day before the fight. So pretty much if Fedor breaks bones does that mean anyone else would to if they were competing at his level and fought with his style?

 

Another interesting thing I came across after I read VeganJoe's article on beet root juice increasing stamina viewtopic.php?f=46&t=18859 was that Fedors favorite food is Borsch which contains beets as a main ingredient. Could this be one of his secret weapons that allows him to NEVER gas in a fight?

 

This comes down to what i was talking about Diet being more important far bone health the exericse. Exercise is huge, but diet is even more important. I'd imgaine if he eat better it would only help

[Vegan Joe]

1 MMA artist doen't not prove any argument.

But Omnis as a whole make a perfect argument.

I suppose we agree that an average omni diet is of poor quality.

In this group as a whole those who have a good workout/exercise diet will fare better than the rest.

And will still fare better if the rest have a great diet but are sedentary.

You are not going to build good bone health unless you exercise.

It has been studied and stated before that on average Vegan have lower bone density. It has been atytributed to the fact that vegans tend to weigh less, but I also condend that many vegan are like the average omni in that exercise is not that important. Also vegan tend to weigh less is because they are nore concious of what they eat than the average omni.

[Vegan Joe]

http://www.naturalnews.com/010528.html

 

Postmenopausal women are especially prone to osteoporosis because they lack estrogen. Most women know this and begin to take calcium supplements to ward off the debilitating disease. Calcium supplements are important, but according to Kathy Keeton's book, Longevity, they are not enough. Not only does your body need magnesium and other nutrients to assimilate calcium into your bones, it also needs strength training to retain calcium. Keeton quotes nutritional biochemist Dr. Neil S. Orenstein: "Without consideration of these effects, no amount of calcium supplementation will prevent osteoporosis."

 

Numerous studies demonstrate strength training's ability to increase bone mass, especially spinal bone mass. According to Keeton, a research study by Ontario's McMaster University found that a year-long strength training program increased the spinal bone mass of postmenopausal women by nine percent. Furthermore, women who do not participate in strength training actually experience a decrease in bone density.

 

In Prescription Alternatives, Professor Earl Mindell and Virginia Hopkins detail these findings: "In a recent study on bone density and exercise, older women who did high-intensity weight training two days per week for a year were able to increase their bone density by one percent, while a control group of women who did not exercise had a bone density decrease of 1.8 to 2.5 percent. The women who exercised also had improved muscle strength and better balance, while both decreased in the non-exercising group."

 

Increased bone density, improved muscle strength, better balance -- these three things will dramatically improve your later years and increase your longevity. Only these health improvements can help prevent a bad fall, which is often a turning point in an elderly person's life. One bad spill can result in a broken hip, an injury that can lead to an elderly person's immobility and dependence on others. Only strength training can provide these benefits

[Vegan Joe]

Just published today.

 

I've also hear that vegan could have shone lower BMD due to the fact that Vegan as a whole tend to weigh less. Hense less stress on their skeletal frame. Also about the English study on fractures I read that what was not taken into account was that Vegans tend to be more active. Like comparing a vegan who broke his wrist from falling off his bike verses an omni sitting on his couch.

 

Just one more example that why weight bearing exercise is paramount.

 

Your health: Vegan diets are a bone of contention

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/painter/2009-08-09-yourhealth10_N.htm

 

Are vegan diets bad to the bone?

There's no reason they have to be. But "it's a question that comes up a lot" as more people consider a diet free of all animal products, including the dairy foods that are part of other vegetarian diets, says Virginia Messina, a vegan and registered dietitian in Bellingham, Wash.

 

And it's a question that made for some confusing headlines recently. Just as the American Dietetic Association declared that "appropriately planned" vegetarian and vegan diets could be healthful at all stages of life, researchers in Australia and Vietnam reported that vegetarians and especially vegans had less dense bones than omnivores.

 

The bone study got much more attention than the ADA's position paper, despite the fact that the researchers found no proof that the modest bone differences would translate into more fractures.

 

Picking the right foods

 

It was another frustrating example of mainstream "bias against the nutritional benefits of a vegan diet," Messina wrote in a blog post. Yet she and other experts concede that there is reason to be concerned about the bones of some vegans, especially still-growing teens. It's not that vegans can't get enough bone-building calcium in their diets. With enough leafy green vegetables, nuts, beans and fortified foods ranging from tofu to orange juice, vegans can get recommended amounts (1,300 milligrams daily for teens, 1,000 mg for adults under age 50 and 1,200 mg for older adults).

 

"But there is evidence that a greater number of vegans have low calcium intakes," says Messina, who helped write previous ADA position papers.

 

Those vegans may well pay a price in broken bones, says Reed Mangels, a vegan registered dietitian who helped write the new ADA report. In a study of bone fracture risk, vegans in the United Kingdom did break significantly more bones than omnivores or vegetarians if they also consumed less than 500 mg of calcium a day, she says.

 

It's not clear how many vegans are that low on calcium. Vegans remain a small, little-studied group: 1.3% of adults reported vegan diets in a survey this spring by Harris Interactive; 3% reported vegetarian diets — they never eat meat, poultry or seafood but might eat eggs and dairy products.

 

Less protein shouldn't mean less calcium

 

One common belief among vegans is that they need less calcium because they eat less protein, and high-protein diets are known to speed up bone loss. But Mangels says: "Even if you are eating a relatively low amount of protein, you still need calcium to build strong bones." Vitamin D, which most Americans get from fortified milk, also is crucial and is in many products acceptable to vegans.

 

Of course, many omnivores don't get enough calcium or vitamin D either, says Felicia Cosman, clinical director of the National Osteoporosis Foundation. Dairy products are great sources of both nutrients, she adds, but other foods and supplements are just fine. Exercise, body size and genetics also play roles in bone health, she notes.

 

While vegans might need to think a bit more about calcium and vitamin D sources, they've got fiber, fruits and vegetables covered and can reap many health benefits, Messina says. "I think that most people really just don't understand that all diets have strengths and weaknesses."