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Addai
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I'm hoping someone can explain the argument against consuming honey for me. And please, I don't care for the idea that "it's an animal product, so vegans don't eat it, period" idea. That's mindless indoctrination. Sorry if that sounded rude, I just wanted to get it out of the way, as I'm really interested in the rationale.

 

I'd also like to preface this with that I admit before hand that I'm on this, I am an ignoramus. So if you call me an ignorant fool, I'm just going to agree with you.

 

Anyways, It's something I've never understood. My sister, who has been a committed vegan for years, told me that we take the honey from the bees, and seeing as that's food for them, they die. I've google'd around and not seen that argument, but rather the only one I have seen is that during the actual collection of the honey some bees may be inadvertently killed by the bee keeper.

 

And here's my perhaps ignorant take on all this. If it's my sisters argument...well honestly, where I live, and the honey I get, all the bee's will die when winter comes. Only the queen survives the winter. And if it's the latter, then some bee's are inadvertently killed by the bee keeper, than I can live with that for two reasons: one, I can't drive to work with out killing a few bee's with my car, and two, the bee's still win out. As I understand it, where we put up ideal living conditions for bee's to do that which they do naturally, bee populations RISE. They go up, it strengthens bee populations (and look at problems we have with the disappearance of the honey bee).

 

So...I just I don't know what the argument is against consuming it. I'm very possibly just totally missing something. Oh, and one other thing, I've heard that it's bug vomit, and frankly it doesn't bother me.

Edited by Addai
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The point is that bees are not ours to be turned into slaves to produce a product that we steal. Many of these beings are not only killed, and smoked out of their own homes, which does not exactly feel good I am sure, or they wouldnt fly away when the smoke came, but they are also tested on and used as items and not living beings.

It is food for them they are hard at work producing, and for thier " children". And when things die by our doing, simply because we want something they have, well that aint right, and it aint vegan.

By your thoughts then there is also no reason to not wear or use silk, even though the worms producing said silk are boiled alive so they do not break the thread.

I am damn sure this came off as with attitude, I do not intend it to be, it just is what it is man.

But in the end you are to do what you do, I hope this has somehow answered your question. When I first started this vegan trip I had the same question, I didnt care about honey, but then I found out the answer, and aint used it since.

As a dude named Tom I refuse to have anything to do with any business that kills for profit, so thats my trip.

And as for the car thing, its intent bud, you dont get in intending to kill, and you are not making profit from it neither.

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The point is that bees are not ours to be turned into slaves to produce a product that we steal. Many of these beings are not only killed, and smoked out of their own homes, which does not exactly feel good I am sure, or they wouldnt fly away when the smoke came, but they are also tested on and used as items and not living beings.

It is food for them they are hard at work producing, and for thier " children". And when things die by our doing, simply because we want something they have, well that aint right, and it aint vegan.

By your thoughts then there is also no reason to not wear or use silk, even though the worms producing said silk are boiled alive so they do not break the thread.

I am damn sure this came off as with attitude, I do not intend it to be, it just is what it is man.

But in the end you are to do what you do, I hope this has somehow answered your question. When I first started this vegan trip I had the same question, I didnt care about honey, but then I found out the answer, and aint used it since.

As a dude named Tom I refuse to have anything to do with any business that kills for profit, so thats my trip.

And as for the car thing, its intent bud, you dont get in intending to kill, and you are not making profit from it neither.

 

It's cool man, and I just want to argue it and play devils advocate, so excuse me if I too sound like I'm putting attitude in anywhere, because I mean all respect.

 

Now, that said, bee's certainly do this on their own accord. Slaves are forced. Bee's are free. They are provided the *ideal* conditions to produce honey in, and where these places exist, bee populations have shown to strengthen. Where these places don't exist, bee's produce honey anyways. I don't really see how bee's are honestly dying from this. They produce honey all year, they THRIVE, and come winter they ALL die, except the queen. I just don't really get how the bee's are losing out here.

 

To the intent thing...the beekeepers I've known don't intend to kill bee's. In fact, it's in their best interest that the bee's thrive, which they do so where we provide the perfect conditions for them.

 

As for smoke and testing, I've never heard about either of those, and perhaps you can elaborate for me.

 

Again I'm just trying to understand it, because it seems to me the bee's are doing what they naturally do, and they're dying every winter like they naturally die, and I'm killing more bee's each day in my car than the beekeeper is who is actually strengthening the bee population.

 

P.S.

I'm also a dude named Tom.

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Great site, thank you!

 

I'm still seeing an indoctrination problem though. For instance, I eat a completely vegan diet (save for my honey who's fate is in serious limbo), and I do care about the welfare of animals. First and foremost for me is health, but were that taken out of the equation I still would be eating vegan. I also buy no animal products, and no products tested on animals. I've rescued dogs from the track, I support animals rights groups, and so on. I advocate most of the things vegans commonly do.

 

But according to that site, I'm not a vegan if I eat honey, which I see a real problem with in terms of marketing. Just a quick note, I actually had not consumed honey in years just because I had no use for it, so I never really considered this when making my switch to veganism. However, I've taken up drinking tea again, so I bought some honey for it.

 

Frankly, I'm not sure I care about bugs. If my house were infested, I would tent it and gas the place without hesitation. I doubt many vegans would hesitate. I understand that in THAT case you have a serious problem that could really affect your livelihood, so it cannot be compared with the honey, but what I'm driving at is that I wouldn't particularly care, and I wonder how many honestly would?

 

I kill SO many bugs with my car. And I hear you on the intent part, but we're all in great shape, and I bet most of us could bike if we REALLY wanted to go hardcore. But know what, when a mosquito lands on me I swat it without much remorse, I'll kill wasps if they're in my house (bee's I really try to save), and I don't know where I'm going with this.

 

I have no intelligent argument I just wonder where you draw the line. For me it might be bugs. According to that site we should be Jainists to be vegan, to sweep the ground before us with a broom so that we might not step on a bug.

 

 

 

Every Vegan I know I have seen cold blooded kill a mosquito. And I FULLY appreciate how different that is from SPONSORING bug-abuse by purchasing honey. I am not comparing the two. But what I am saying, is that if you can kill a bug without remorse, which I'm going to take a long shot and say most of us can, does that really make you that much better than the guy buying honey? You're still killing tons of bugs with your car, you're stepping on them, you're swatting them. But you don't support it with MONEY. I mean, we're only talking a matter of degree at this point aren't we?

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry that was so long, so nonsensical, and basically a totally idiotic unintelligent ramble with no legitimate point to be made.

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The whole killing things with the car is moot, its all intent. If you intend to end a life then negitive karma you are making, if kill by accident then the universe sees no harm.

Bottom line, dont kill shit man, and the bees are not free, biology dictates that once the hive is set, this is where they must stay. It is the way of the world.

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The only problem I have with people eating honey and still calling themselves vegan is that people assume that honey is vegan. Just like pesco-vegetarians or people who eat chicken and claims that they are vegetarian. I can't even count the number of times that I've been on a restaurant or away for dinner and got honey despite me explaining the term vegan 50 times. Addai, you're simply a vegan who eats honey. No one is 100% vegan, it's an ideal.

Personally I do not kill bugs or eat their byproducts but at least half of my friends who call themselves vegan eats candy with beeswax and E120 (crushed female cactus lice coloring) and there is no point in arguing with it really. What bugs me out (no pun) is when someone takes a piece of candy with beeswak and says that it's vegan. So eat your honey, but don't say that it's vegan.

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Often there is a problem with these kinds of debates because there are 3 themes. Firstly there is the discussion of what is right or wrong, and then there is the discussion of what is practical in this society, and then there is the discussion of what veganism actually means. These things are not necessarily linked, and I think it is what contributes to the confusion surrounding such things as honey.

 

Someone wants to be vegan, for whatever reason, they find out that honey is not vegan, yet they want to consume it. They still want to be called a "vegan", and consume honey, and as they think they have a valid reason to eat it, either they think it is ethical, or impractical to avoid, they don't see why they should lose their title.

 

However, from my perspective, I don't see why it matters what you call yourself. It is a fact that honey isn't vegan, but if you want to consume it, then I don't see why it matters what label you may have for yourself. Why is it important to be called a vegan? Personally, that is not the reason why I do things, or avoid things (to be called a vegan). I decide for myself what I think is right or wrong, other people attribute the word vegan to me. Things being labeled "vegan" is not enough for me to know whether or not I think it is ethical to purchase, there are things beyond that for me. So me being referred to as a "vegan" is what other people would choose to do, and I use the word because it is simple and gives a rough indication to people what I am about, but it's not a limit to me, nor is it a rule book.

 

If you think it is right to eat honey, then why would you mind what others call you (or don't call you)? From what I understand, your life would not be affected in any way by not calling yourself a vegan, you'd still do exactly the same as you would be now. The fact that some food is not labeled as vegan since it has honey in it should not make that much of a difference to you, since so few things are labeled as vegan anyway (even if they are vegan), so you're still having to check ingredients on a lot of products.

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Why not just avoid it since the alternative is just as good (or better) anyhow? I'm talking about agave nectar...plus it's relatively cheap, readily available (I get mine at Winco of all places) and doesn't have that annoying problem crystallizing that honey does.

I'm not making the blanket statement of it's not vegan, don't eat it...but since you are on the fence enough to question it in the first place obviously you aren't convinced of that either. I also like tea, but with a little lemon and agave nectar. Try it!

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the poor bees have to work a lot to produce honey,then people steal it from them,and kill some of them,just to satisfy a caprice,that's not good.

and i know this has nothing to do with the moral aspect,but i like bees,i think they are lovely

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I think the only question that you have to consider is whether bees have the ability to suffer, and therefore have the ability to be self interested. If you think that they are advanced enough to have interests on some level, probably not a good idea to eat their food. I am not convinced they really have the ability to suffer, but I am not sure, so I do not eat the fruits of their labour. Same thing with clams or mussles, I am not convinced they are advanced enough to consciously experience pain, but would rather be safe than sorry. I have been vegan for 12 years and find the details or nitpicking fruitless. Do the best you can, and personally, if you are an animal rights activist that eats honey, you're still vegan in my book.

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I dont kill bugs, in fact I had a serous flip on on a very close vegan friend ( you know who you are ) for killing a spider when I was in the house. I want nothing to do with that kinda karma or pathetic fear.

 

Great site, thank you!

 

I'm still seeing an indoctrination problem though. For instance, I eat a completely vegan diet (save for my honey who's fate is in serious limbo), and I do care about the welfare of animals. First and foremost for me is health, but were that taken out of the equation I still would be eating vegan. I also buy no animal products, and no products tested on animals. I've rescued dogs from the track, I support animals rights groups, and so on. I advocate most of the things vegans commonly do.

 

But according to that site, I'm not a vegan if I eat honey, which I see a real problem with in terms of marketing. Just a quick note, I actually had not consumed honey in years just because I had no use for it, so I never really considered this when making my switch to veganism. However, I've taken up drinking tea again, so I bought some honey for it.

 

Frankly, I'm not sure I care about bugs. If my house were infested, I would tent it and gas the place without hesitation. I doubt many vegans would hesitate. I understand that in THAT case you have a serious problem that could really affect your livelihood, so it cannot be compared with the honey, but what I'm driving at is that I wouldn't particularly care, and I wonder how many honestly would?

 

I kill SO many bugs with my car. And I hear you on the intent part, but we're all in great shape, and I bet most of us could bike if we REALLY wanted to go hardcore. But know what, when a mosquito lands on me I swat it without much remorse, I'll kill wasps if they're in my house (bee's I really try to save), and I don't know where I'm going with this.

 

I have no intelligent argument I just wonder where you draw the line. For me it might be bugs. According to that site we should be Jainists to be vegan, to sweep the ground before us with a broom so that we might not step on a bug.

 

 

 

Every Vegan I know I have seen cold blooded kill a mosquito. And I FULLY appreciate how different that is from SPONSORING bug-abuse by purchasing honey. I am not comparing the two. But what I am saying, is that if you can kill a bug without remorse, which I'm going to take a long shot and say most of us can, does that really make you that much better than the guy buying honey? You're still killing tons of bugs with your car, you're stepping on them, you're swatting them. But you don't support it with MONEY. I mean, we're only talking a matter of degree at this point aren't we?

 

 

 

 

I'm sorry that was so long, so nonsensical, and basically a totally idiotic unintelligent ramble with no legitimate point to be made.

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If you are going to consume something that bees produce you might as well at least consume dairy. It's a problem of consistency. Why would you eschew one animal product but consume another?

 

Well, not really. Bee's aren't slaves, they aren't being coerced, they're doing what they naturally do and we're just harvesting it. Every single bee in the state I live, and I buy local honey, has two things true about it: one, it will produce honey irrelevant of human activity and two, it will die by winter. I wouldn't compare that to what the dairy industry does. I also believe it could be done in a completely symbiotic way in which both we and the bee's benefit, and I believe that there are some places (rare) where this exists. Where bee's are provided an ideal habitat, where there populations strengthen (and remember in some areas of the country the decline of the honey bee is a serious problem, maybe this could help?), and we get delicious honey. It also does not have the health or environmental ramifications of the dairy industry, though I figured we were sticking to the moral side of the argument.

 

And we do all kill bugs with our car, and if intent is your problem, we still all swat bugs (well, most of us...though I bet even the most ardent among has has crushed a mosquito). Last year I had an ant problem. I killed hundreds, if not thousands of ants. Every vegan I have known has cold blooded killed a bug at some point that I've been with them.

 

As for titles, I think it's pretty silly to say that because of honey someone isn't a vegan. Someone who doesn't touch meat, doesn't touch dairy, or any animal products, advocates veganism, supports animal rights groups, and so on--you really want to risk alienating that person because they eat honey? I just feel like that might be counterproductive. If that were me, and someone asked, I'd say vegan for simplicities sake. Explaining the semantics of a technicality would be tiresome.

 

 

 

 

Anyways, once I finish the honey I have, I won't be buying any more, and I really just wanted to rant my stupidity and play devils advocate to hear what you all had to say. Thank you guys for humoring me, I read dozens of excellent points, many of which I did not know or had not considered.

 

On a related note, could someone recommend me something delicious with which to sweeten my tea, for that is, I fear, the only reason this thread really exists...

 

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I like to put sugar in my tea

 

I think that the whole notion of titles is tiresome, because someone will always come along and say that something a person does isn't vegan, even if their intent is to be as vegan as they can be, they ultimately will do something, by existing in modern society, which is detrimental to animals. Buying honey is a deliberate act, which some may say is different to driving a car which will cause the deaths of many insects and other animals. It is different to an extent, not because of the intent, but because for most people it is pretty much necessary to use a vehicle, or at least public transport, to get from place to place in their life. There isn't much of an alternative. It's much harder, in fact almost impossible for some people, to remove cars from their life than it is to remove honey. Removing honey is so simple, you just don't eat it, you don't even need to replace it, but you can replace it easily as well.

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