Vegans/Vegetarians That Smoke

[VeganEssentials]

I figured it was about time someone posted something like that (where the hell are you, Zack?!? )

 

What we need to do is get this thing so far off topic that it no longer has anything to do with smoking. Read any good books lately?

[Vegan Joe]

That's right I'm all those things you think I am and more.

Now take you baggage and leave, and the next time you come back leave your baggage at the door.

I can't help you, only you can, and apparently all you care about is people feeling sorry for you.

I had you pegged right from the beginning when all your threads were based on sexual dysfunction.

How about talking about veganism and fitness?

What happened with your journal?

Might make you less angry, to channel your thoughts and energy into something constructive.

 

PS I do believe what I told you, and there is no one who can prove me to be wrong.

I didn't read that stuff off a cereal box or comic book.

Give some thought to what I was saying earlier it will help you if you let it.

Now take responsibility for yourself and stop trying to alienate others who are just trying to be amiable.

[Cold Fission]

http://i48.tinypic.com/sw5r1f.jpg

 

If i wasn't involved in this thread and i was from Finland this picture would totally make sense.

[Cold Fission]

http://i48.tinypic.com/f0rg9x.jpg

[Cold Fission]

http://i47.tinypic.com/wk4ec9.jpg

[beforewisdom]

I figured it was about time someone posted something like that (where the hell are you, Zack?!? )

 

What we need to do is get this thing so far off topic that it no longer has anything to do with smoking. Read any good books lately?

 

I just finished the China Study.

 

I think it is worth of criticism, but I am surprised by:

 

- the criticisms coming from people who are not scientists, who claim to be scientists but who do not have the same credentials as Dr. Campbell, who are not involved in the same research as Dr. C or who have not read the same things.

 

- the critics who claim "he is an undercover AR activist" when in the book Dr. C states that he doesn't have a problem with animal experiments, has used them and did not go vegetarian until after his work on the china study convinced him to do so.

[DaN]

lol at the gif

 

lol at the attempt to change subject

 

I recently read the first novel of the Star Wars; Old republic series, called Darth Bane.

 

A great science fiction book, made even better if you are a Star Wars fan, which I unashamedly admit I am.

 

Before Wisdom, what is the jist of the China Study?

[beforewisdom]

The gist:

 

1. Cardiovascular disease and cancer are the top killers of Americans

2. The China Study was the largest and most sophisticated population nutrition studyin history. Some Chinese eat like Americans, some don't.

3. The Chinese who don't eat like Americans live off of plants and an inconsequential amount of animal products. About 4 oz of meat a day. Enough for a thin sandwhich of coldcuts.

4. The Chinese who don't like Americans only get a tiny fraction of our top diseases.

5. The Chinese who do eat like Americans die of the same diseases we do.

6. There has been substantial evidence for about 60 years that meat, milk and eggs gives us more disease

7. This evidence is suppressed out of cultural bias and large sums of money operating via public and private partnerships.

8. People who want to be healthy should live off of a plant based diet of whole plant foods that are mostly unrefined, low fat and high fiber.

 

1 - 8 are not earth shattering ideas. These things have been said by many people for many years but the author of the book was the chief scientist of The China Study who has been a researcher literally for 50 years and is one of the top researchers in the country. He went near vegan as a result of his work, not before it. He isn't an AR activist. He conducted studies on animals and states in his book that he thinks such experiments have their place.

 

Bottom line: sometimes it is not what is said, it is *who* says it. Dr. Campbell saying these things makes life very uncomfortable for people profiting from the status quo. He can't be brushed off as a hippie or another MD with a diet book.

[Vegan Joe]

The gist:

 

1. Cardiovascular disease and cancer are the top killers of Americans

2. The China Study was the largest and most sophisticated population nutrition studyin history. Some Chinese eat like Americans, some don't.

3. The Chinese who don't eat like Americans live off of plants and an inconsequential amount of animal products. About 4 oz of meat a day. Enough for a thin sandwhich of coldcuts.

4. The Chinese who don't like Americans only get a tiny fraction of our top diseases.

5. The Chinese who do eat like Americans die of the same diseases we do.

6. There has been substantial evidence for about 60 years that meat, milk and eggs gives us more disease

7. This evidence is suppressed out of cultural bias and large sums of money operating via public and private partnerships.

8. People who want to be healthy should live off of a plant based diet of whole plant foods that are mostly unrefined, low fat and high fiber.

 

1 - 8 are not earth shattering ideas. These things have been said by many people for many years but the author of the book was the chief scientist of The China Study who has been a researcher literally for 50 years and is one of the top researchers in the country. He went near vegan as a result of his work, not before it. He isn't an AR activist. He conducted studies on animals and states in his book that he thinks such experiments have their place.

 

Bottom line: sometimes it is not what is said, it is *who* says it. Dr. Campbell saying these things makes life very uncomfortable for people profiting from the status quo. He can't be brushed off as a hippie or another MD with a diet book.

 

HaHaHa

[Ryofire]

Well at least you guys have a good sense of humor. I'll give you that.

[Kenxvx]

I figured it was about time someone posted something like that (where the hell are you, Zack?!? )

 

What we need to do is get this thing so far off topic that it no longer has anything to do with smoking. Read any good books lately?

 

I just finished the China Study.

 

I think it is worth of criticism, but I am surprised by:

 

- the criticisms coming from people who are not scientists, who claim to be scientists but who do not have the same credentials as Dr. Campbell, who are not involved in the same research as Dr. C or who have not read the same things.

 

- the critics who claim "he is an undercover AR activist" when in the book Dr. C states that he doesn't have a problem with animal experiments, has used them and did not go vegetarian until after his work on the china study convinced him to do so.

 

Interesting bit about T. Colin Campbell is that when he did his first study in Indonesia (a much smaller version of the China Study) his hypothesis was the exact opposite, that it was eating too little meat that caused the diseases he was seeing. Hence why I laugh when people call him an undercover AR activist.

[DaN]

Thanks for the synopsis m8.

 

On that basis I am going to buy the book off amazon and read it, then when im finished, offer to lend it to people who show an interest in my veganism.

 

What strikes me as interesting is the science behind our dietry choice, because I like to be educated in that, aswell as the moralistic reasons behind our veganism.

 

Thanks!

 

[beforewisdom]

Interesting bit about T. Colin Campbell is that when he did his first study in Indonesia (a much smaller version of the China Study) his hypothesis was the exact opposite, that it was eating too little meat that caused the diseases he was seeing. Hence why I laugh when people call him an undercover AR activist.

 

Or how he is on a first name basis with the top scientists in the food industry and government, even the ones he has harsh things to say about. He has been a nutrition researcher, literally, for 50 years. Longer than many of his critics have even been alive.

 

I think both he and Dr. Esselstyn have already lived Dr. Atkinson. My father is near their age range. The fact that these guys are touring around the country, writing, speaking etc amazes me.

[Ellie Moondog]

This thread made to look up Asbergers on webmd.

 

I get it now. Arguing with or trying to have a reasonable conversation this guy is hopeless.

 

That's rather rude...

[Ellie Moondog]

On the original topic, Ethics & Smoking (also, apparently, civil rights):

 

I have never smoked either cigarettes or weed.

 

I don't care if you do, as long as it affects ONLY YOU.

 

Unfortunately, most - not all, but most - smokers I have encountered have been rude a-holes.

 

This problem could probably be solved if smokers were required to be enclosed in plastic bubbles while smoking.

 

Personally, I have asthma because I grew up in a house where both my parents smoked. And yet, I've run 3 marathons. Not fast, but I have. I don't use my asthma as a crutch, obviously, but it is - when I let it - a source of resentment.

 

My father has emphysema. I dread the day he begins to need an oxygen tank for the rest of his life.

 

Despite their compromises (not smoking while I am in the house, etc) it has become clear that, due to the build-up of toxins in the house, I can no longer set foot in the home I grew up in - unless I want to have an asthma attack and subsequently come down with bronchitis. Literally - every time I visit = bronchitis & therefore expensive antibiotics.

 

And yet, that's not even the worst part. The worst part is the rift in our relationships. My 2 younger brothers have both been on-and-off smokers as well, and talking to them as smokers and as non-smokers is like night and day. It is an addiction like any other, and the addiction takes over the addicted person's brain, and is concerned with only its own preservation. I cannot reason with them as smokers, or with my parents, on the subject of smoking and health, because the addiction will not allow them to confront reality.

 

When they are smoking, they make all manner of justifications for their insensitive behavior, and accuse my asthma of being "in my head" (despite pulmonary function tests to the contrary).

 

When they are smoking, I have no family.

[cubby2112]

Interesting bit about T. Colin Campbell is that when he did his first study in Indonesia (a much smaller version of the China Study) his hypothesis was the exact opposite, that it was eating too little meat that caused the diseases he was seeing. Hence why I laugh when people call him an undercover AR activist.

 

Or how he is on a first name basis with the top scientists in the food industry and government, even the ones he has harsh things to say about. He has been a nutrition researcher, literally, for 50 years. Longer than many of his critics have even been alive.

 

I think both he and Dr. Esselstyn have already lived Dr. Atkinson. My father is near their age range. The fact that these guys are touring around the country, writing, speaking etc amazes me.

 

That is why I always recommend The China Study to anyone interested in reading about veganism at all. I know there are a few small issues with his reasoning, but as a whole, the book is pretty much impenetrable. Usually when I see Dr. Campbell's name pop up on some regular bodybuilding board, people say the low cholesterol "conspiracy" is around to help drug companies. They say how people who believe that are unthinking automatons and don't know how to interpret research. Then they throw up a link to Dr. Mercola, who bases at least one of his views on his mother's intuition. Enough said.

[JLat86]

I grew my own organic tobacco once, Nicotiana tabaccum and Nicotiana rustica. I don't see how that adversely affected anyone else, human or animal, in any serious way. I smoked it in a hookah and it was great actually.

 

I quit smoking since then, however, with a view towards being healthier in general.

[godisagnostic]

As long as you buy brands by companies that don't test on animals it's all good. It's not good for you but it's your life if you want to shorten it.

[Ryofire]

As long as you buy brands by companies that don't test on animals it's all good. It's not good for you but it's your life if you want to shorten it.

 

So isn't Poison Ivy or Hemlock. But are you using those.

Edited June 3, 2010 by Ryofire

[Joss]

Ryofire, it's devastating that your grandmother died from smoking - I'm sorry you went through that. It's a horrible and addictive substance that claims way too many lives. There are so many people affected by smoking - both tobacco & weed.

 

However, like veganism (albeit not in the same "health" category), smoking is a choice people have. While it's not something you respect, it shouldn't affect the way you feel about someone who does smoke. Someone who smokes isn't any less deserving nor has less compassion than someone who doesn't smoke. And smoking has nothing whatsoever to do with veganism. Compare it to some other choices....there is sexual preference (heterosexual / homosexual), there is religion (christianity / budhism) - which one makes someone vegan? None of them, of course!

 

I'm not saying that I agree with people smoking (I used to smoke but gave up about 9 years ago & won't look back) - but don't confuse the situation. It'd be great if all vegans didn't smoke - but smoking isn't non-vegan. End of story really.

 

Joss x

[Ryofire]

Ryofire, it's devastating that your grandmother died from smoking - I'm sorry you went through that. It's a horrible and addictive substance that claims way too many lives. There are so many people affected by smoking - both tobacco & weed.

 

However, like veganism (albeit not in the same "health" category), smoking is a choice people have. While it's not something you respect, it shouldn't affect the way you feel about someone who does smoke. Someone who smokes isn't any less deserving nor has less compassion than someone who doesn't smoke. And smoking has nothing whatsoever to do with veganism. Compare it to some other choices....there is sexual preference (heterosexual / homosexual), there is religion (christianity / budhism) - which one makes someone vegan? None of them, of course!

 

I'm not saying that I agree with people smoking (I used to smoke but gave up about 9 years ago & won't look back) - but don't confuse the situation. It'd be great if all vegans didn't smoke - but smoking isn't non-vegan. End of story really.

 

Joss x

 

That may be so, but how are you going to say you don't support the torture and murder of animals, but you support the torture and murder of your own species? That's kind of like saying your vegan, but yet you wear fur coats.

[katheryne]

I could never smoke after finding about about Philip Morris. It really freaked me out.

[Ryofire]

That's right I'm all those things you think I am and more.

Now take you baggage and leave, and the next time you come back leave your baggage at the door.

I can't help you, only you can, and apparently all you care about is people feeling sorry for you.

I had you pegged right from the beginning when all your threads were based on sexual dysfunction.

How about talking about veganism and fitness?

What happened with your journal?

Might make you less angry, to channel your thoughts and energy into something constructive.

 

PS I do believe what I told you, and there is no one who can prove me to be wrong.

I didn't read that stuff off a cereal box or comic book.

Give some thought to what I was saying earlier it will help you if you let it.

Now take responsibility for yourself and stop trying to alienate others who are just trying to be amiable.

 

I know this is late commenting back on this, but how about you stop trying to alienate me and mind your own damn buisness. If you don't like my threads, then don't read or comment on them your always talking about how you always have the choice to do things. And guess what, you can choose to not read or comment on my threads. You're not going to get rid of me I'm staying right here on this forum, if you don't like it then piss off asshole.

Edited June 16, 2010 by Ryofire

[medman]

This thread makes no sense to me at all. I am very confused at this point.

[apriltrainer]

Personally I think not smoking sets a good example to non-vegans. I live in a Latino neighborhood called Pilsen here in Chicago. Across the street from me are the only um...non latino people on my block( bunch of young twenty somethings in one apartment. ) who are out to save the poor brown people. Makes me gag. Really. But that's another post. They walk around with holier than thou attitudes on their single speed bikes while thumbing their noses at my cheapie bike I got at the used store. Smoke all the time outside their porch and invite their bewildered neighbors to anarchist meetings. (Yeah, I got a flyer) . And on almost every corner is a tamale stand....

 

Once while I was jogging past a tamale stand, I spotted a few of the hipsters telling people they were killing animals and participating in the capitalist system that was keeping brown people down.

 

I just don't think that's the way to go about it...

 

Telling them they are killing animals while smoking in their faces. Okay..only one person from their group was smoking but still- just a bad,bad example.

 

Let's just say the message didn't go through....

 

Now...I don't even plan on telling people I abstain from meat. But almost everyday...like today when I went out for a run, a woman stopped me.

 

She asked me(as have others) what exercises I do and what I eat.

 

You think non-vegans are going to go up to skinny 20-something smokers and ask that? Doubt it.

 

Anyways...the woman said if it worked for me she wanted to try.

 

So I'm workin it. I'm workin it.