Would you date a hermaphrodite?

[Guest]

And the informed/deformed thing is a nice sentiment but "deformed" maybe has negative connotations I guess...?

I'm sorry if there is a negative connotation. That was never intended.

[_raVen_]

That's an awesome sig, raVen.

 

Thanks

 

 

And the informed/deformed thing is a nice sentiment but "deformed" maybe has negative connotations I guess...?

 

Yes. The conclusion that woman with fake breasts make "deformed" decisions is presumptuous and insulting.

 

You're arguing a lot for people who agree with each other

 

 

Perhaps...

semantics?

 

Daniel, I'm sorry my illustration of judging people on appearance is not clear to you -- just disregard it.

My post was in response to your conclusion that women who get breast augmentation have made "deformed" decisions. This is what I wanted clarification on. Do you not see that that can be a sexist statement?

 

And as to your conclusion, you are coming to them based on one attribute -- a physical one -- do you not see that?

 

I don't think you are trying to be offensive; I just think, presuming to know that women who get augmentation are making deformed decisions is where you are wrong.

 

I really don't know how you would possess this knowledge, but I'm sure a lot of women would be quite suprised to know that you have discovered for them the real reason they have made personal decisions about their bodies.

 

E.T.A If Richard is right, then that would be great. And I've tried not to be offensive in my statements; so I ask that they not be taken as such.

[robert]

Thanks for clearing things up

 

And yeah, Raven, that is an awesome signature!

 

-Rob

[Guest]

Daniel, I'm sorry my illustration of judging people on appearance is not clear to you -- just disregard it.

Okay, but keep in mind that a dozen times a day people are judging each others appearance on this site. Telling someone they look great is as much a judgment as saying they look like crap. And this thread is based on making a judgment about people we would date. I'm personally not in favor of either kind of judgment, but I don't pretend praise and other positive judgments are not judgmental.

 

My post was in response to your conclusion that women who get breast augmentation have made "deformed" decisions. This is what I wanted clarification on. Do you not see that that can be a sexist statement?

I would be happy to clarify, but I wasn't asked for clarification. I feel I'm being told what I meant.

 

No, I don't believe what I wrote is sexist. Breast augmentation does not exist in a vacuum. (And I did not call breast augmentation a deformed decision, I called it a deformed desire.) Breast augmentation exists in the context of sex inequality. It is this context, not the decision of the individual woman, that I was referring to by the term "deformed". Please note that I equally believe a man's desire for women with breast augmentation is a deformed desire. It is the social matrix that encourages people to judge a woman by the size of her breast that I believe is the nexus of what I refer to as a deformed desire.

 

And as to your conclusion, you are coming to them based on one attribute -- a physical one -- do you not see that?

My conclusion is not based on any physical attribute; it is based on the cultural environment. The cultural environment is a patriarchal one, and it is through patriarchy that the physical attribute is given importance. Breast augmentation exists because of the importance society places on a woman's body as a sexual object. I think that frame of reference is the nexus of the deformed desire.

 

I don't think you are trying to be offensive; I just think, presuming to know that women who get augmentation are making deformed decisions is where you are wrong.

Given the social context, there is nothing irrational about a woman getting breast augmentation. It is a reasonable decision to make give the societal emphasis given to large breasts. I'm not questioning the decision, but I am questioning the societal pressure relating to the desire for breast augmentation. Everywhere we go and look are images of very thin women with large breasts. No woman's dscision created this environment.

 

I really don't know how you would possess this knowledge, but I'm sure a lot of women would be quite suprised to know that you have discovered for them the real reason they have made personal decisions about their bodies.

I don't claim to know the reasons why women have made the personal decision about their bodies. I also don't judge them for making that decision. I can make a judgment about society without knowing the thought of every other person in that society. I too live in this world, and I am affected by the social matrix. Social change will only come if we are willing to question and challenge the social norm.

[willpeavy]

You're arguing a lot for people who agree with each other

 

Haha!

[_raVen_]

No, I don't believe what I wrote is sexist. Breast augmentation does not exist in a vacuum. (And I did not call

breast augmentation a deformed decision, I called it a deformed desire.)

 

And yet, you put it in a vacuum with your statement that women who choose augmentation are making a decision based on a deformed desire. "Desire" -- not much better.

 

A deformed desire is still offensive as it assumes these women have been manipulated into a decision by society.

 

Women are perfectly capable of making INformed good decisions as well as bad. To make a sweeping statement, as you did, with no clarification or qualifier, that their decisions are "deformed," is with what I take issue. If you meant that one reason women get augmentation is ___, then you should have expressed that.

Further, "desire" is loaded language and connotes or presumes that there are no outside reasons beyond "compulsion," "urge," or "craving" (synonyms of desire) for choosing augmentation. This is an example of how you have contextualized augmentation into a vacuum.

 

Further, only the word "decision" is correct; it is a decision because there are a myriad of possibilities that

 

can occur for women to make this choice.

Now, just as significant, "deformed" is the word at issue. With your concern for the plight of women in society you have chosen words such as "deformed desire" to further the patriarchal language which demeans women.

 

 

 

Breast augmentation exists in the context of sex inequality.

 

Again, sweeping statement with no factual basis. There is no room in statements like these for other possibilities of cause.

 

My conclusion is not based on any physical attribute; it is based on the cultural environment. The cultural environment is a patriarchal one, and it is through patriarchy that the physical attribute is given importance.

 

You don't have to tell me about patriarchy and how it effects women nor how it affects women.

 

Breast augmentation exists because of the importane society places on a woman's body as a sexual object.

 

I don't know that to be true. How would one come to that conclusion definitively? It would be impossible. I can't

 

say whether or not breast augmentation would exist if society did not place such importance on womens' bodies, and I don't believe you can. You can wonder or consider it a possibility or as one contributing factor.

 

Given the social context, there is nothing irrational about a woman getting breast augmentation. It is a reasonable decision to make give the societal emphasis given to large breasts. I'm not questioning the decision, but I am questioning the societal pressure relating to the desire for breast augmentation. Everywhere we go and look are images of very thin women with large breasts. No woman's dscision created this environment.

 

No one said anything about irrational.

You made a sweeping statement about why women get augmentation. You nor I can make such a statement about the reason someone makes a decision, much less all women who get augmentation. Your implication that the women who choose to undergo plastic surgery are somehow unwitting victims of society is where I take issue with you.

 

I don't claim to know the reasons why women have made the personal decision about their bodies.

I also don't judge them for making that decision.

 

But you did. You stated they make it because of a deformed desire.

 

Thanks, robert

 

Jay, you're probably right: this will go nowhere.

 

Good conversation, though

[Guest]

My statement was not about women; I clearly stated that it equally applies to men. More over, it is not about individuals -- either woman or man -- but about society. You continue to ignore that we have different worldviews, and I am left wondering what is to be gained by repeatedly misrepresenting my position in order to refute it.

 

I offered informed/deformed as an alternative perspective to shallowness. I believe what I believe based on what I consider is most consistant with values. No matter how aggressively you insist I am wrong you're not going to be able to coerce me into believing differently.

 

We obviously have different perspectives. I feel it would be helpful if you enunciate your viewpoint -- instead of using all your energy attacking mine. I am not a liberal, nor am I a conservative. Please don't take your own encapsulated worldview as the standard by which all other paradigms may be judged.

[willpeavy]

I think the reason people don't like breast implants is mainly cliqueish. For example, people who are really into tattoos/piercings alternative subcultures,etc often call people who get plastic surgery "shallow." And people who are into plastic surgery often call people into tats/piercings/etc "trashy." And the whole name calling thing is really stupid. People decide get to boob jobs or whatever because they like the way it looks, and if you don't like it then too bad, not everyone has the same sense of beauty as you, so let them be.

[Guest]

I think the reason people don't like breast implants is mainly cliqueish. For example, people who are really into tattoos/piercings alternative subcultures,etc often call people who get plastic surgery "shallow." And people who are into plastic surgery often call people into tats/piercings/etc "trashy." And the whole name calling thing is really stupid. People decide get to boob jobs or whatever because they like the way it looks, and if you don't like it then too bad, not everyone has the same sense of beauty as you, so let them be.

I believe there are significant differences between tattoos and/or piercing, and breast implants.

 

I agree that calling people names is nonsense. I can't speak for others, and I'm likely in a minority here, but my position on breast implants is unrelated to cliquishness. I'm coming at this from a sexual politics frame of reference. From my point of view it isn't a matter of taste, but a matter of addressing what Sandra Bartky calls "the established order of domination." So, to me, the statement "if you don't like it then too bad" is one that supports the status quo.

 

True, each individual does have a different sense of beauty. But, how is an individuals equal worth and autonomy promoted while possibly risking her own health in order to conform to what is arguably a male-based fantasy of beauty? A person's sense of beauty may not benefit the person who holds it, but the privileged and patriarchy itself, as Anita Superson points out in the September 2005 issue of Hypatia-A Journal of Feminist Philosophy. (I borrowed the terms "deformed desires" and "informed desires" from Superson's article "Deformed Desires and Informed Desire Tests.")

 

I agree with much of what Superson says about desires that are formed by unjust social conditions -- a related term for this is hegemonic control. And I believe it is important that we question those desires in the interest of promoting equality and autonomy.

[veggymeggy]

I will admit I have skimmed parts of the thread, so I might be missing something....

but I am curious, particularly to you Raven, what the "other" things that Daniel might be excluding in his reasoning are?

Like, if breast augmentation doesn't come from societal pressure to conform to a sexual ideal, where does it come from? If the desire to have implants isn't based on that, what is it based on?

I'm assuming that we're talking about purely cosmetic surgery and not reconstructive of course.

I wouldn't hold it against someone if she has had augmentation done, as I know plenty of women who have, but I do think it's ridiculous. Every single one I know that has implants got 'em to flaunt 'em....

[VeganEssentials]

I believe there are significant differences between tattoos and/or piercing, and breast implants.

 

I can assure you that there are many people out there who get tattoos/body modification done because of vanity reasons to impress others or feel better about themselves. But, like breast augmentation, you wouldn't know the exact reason simply by looking at someone. Simply judging by observation is only a personal assumption as to what the reasons are and does not necessarily offer a true insight.

 

From my point of view it isn't a matter of taste, but a matter of addressing what Sandra Bartky calls "the established order of domination." So, to me, the statement "if you don't like it then too bad" is one that supports the status quo.

 

But, if you don't like it, does that give authority to make judgement, particularly without knowing the exact motives for the procedure having been done? If someone feels better about themselves, even if it is due to inadequacies being felt due to social image and perception of how one fits in, is the decision bad even if the person feels that their life has improved in the end? I doubt that most people who get breast augmentation jump into it without trying to accept their current situation first and live with what they naturally have, but if their reaction for the procedure genuinely makes them feel better about themselves (all society-influenced reasons aside) then what is the harm being done if it affects nobody but the person who had it done? Just playing devil's advocate here - I'm neither pro-augmentation nor con, but curious to hear why it can never seem to be a good idea to you.

 

But, how is an individuals equal worth and autonomy promoted while possibly risking her own health in order to conform to what is arguably a male-based fantasy of beauty?

 

That's under the assumption that each and every person has augmentation based only on their desire to fit a male-based fantasy of beauty and offers no other personal reasoning why someone would do such a thing. If that were the only option, it would be completely logical, but I doubt that it can encompass 100% of all people who have it done. Probably a great deal of them, but certainly not all.

 

Also, what about the fair number of people who, as mentioned before, have piercing/body modification work done? There's a health risk to that as well, and if people do it for the wrong reasons then does that negate the validity of their decisions as well? Again, we wouldn't know unless we could look into the minds of each and every person who does such things, so I think that the two groups parallel each other well in some ways such as this. We simply cannot know the exact reasons, so judging seems to be unfair.

 

A person's sense of beauty may not benefit the person who holds it, but the privileged and patriarchy itself, as Anita Superson points out in the September 2005 issue of Hypatia-A Journal of Feminist Philosophy. (I borrowed the terms "deformed desires" and "informed desires" from Superson's article "Deformed Desires and Informed Desire Tests.")

 

Again, if a person has augmentation, feels better about themselves and overcomes mental obstacles based on feelings of inferiority (all reasoning for such feelings aside as that's a different case), then how is the person not benefiting from the procedure? I can only see two possible scenarios where there is no benefit to the person - first, where health is compromised due to problems with the procedure, and second, when there is remorse for having the procedure done. If these two factors are not present, then where is the harm to the individual?

 

I agree with much of what Superson says about desires that are formed by unjust social conditions -- a related term for this is hegemonic control. And I believe it is important that we question those desires in the interest of promoting equality and autonomy.

 

The quote "Hate the game, not the player" applies well to all of this. Attacking the root is one thing, but judging those who have done it in perceived response is another, particularly if we do not know the exact reasons something was done for.

 

We could get into a whole new debate if anyone would like to discuss the reasons for bodybuilding and how the "ideal" male physique is perceived in the mainstream media. Lots of fun parallels we can talk about then!

[Jay]

I think the reason people don't like breast implants is mainly cliqueish. For example, people who are really into tattoos/piercings alternative subcultures,etc often call people who get plastic surgery "shallow." And people who are into plastic surgery often call people into tats/piercings/etc "trashy." And the whole name calling thing is really stupid. People decide get to boob jobs or whatever because they like the way it looks, and if you don't like it then too bad, not everyone has the same sense of beauty as you, so let them be.

Will, you've strawmaned people's positions into just pointless intolerance. It's a little insulting that you really think all we're talking about is whether or not it looks good.

 

The point was that someone who cares so much about looks they'd have surgery might be more likely to treat people badly who they consider to not look good.

[willpeavy]

I think the reason people don't like breast implants is mainly cliqueish. For example, people who are really into tattoos/piercings alternative subcultures,etc often call people who get plastic surgery "shallow." And people who are into plastic surgery often call people into tats/piercings/etc "trashy." And the whole name calling thing is really stupid. People decide get to boob jobs or whatever because they like the way it looks, and if you don't like it then too bad, not everyone has the same sense of beauty as you, so let them be.

Will, you've strawmaned people's positions into just pointless intolerance. It's a little insulting that you really think all we're talking about is whether or not it looks good.

 

The point was that someone who cares so much about looks they'd have surgery might be more likely to treat people badly who they consider to not look good.

 

Gimme a break... I think the whole issue is silly

[Richard]

I think VeganEssentials made a lot of good points. I think Daniel has been pretty accurate in his assumptions about cosmetic surgery, in that the vast majority of people who have it done are doing it so that they feel better about how they look in the eyes of other people. I could be wrong about that, and I'm open to individuals telling me their different reasons for cosmetic surgery. But on the whole, I would imagine that prior to the surgery they believed they were unhappy with their appearance; and this unhappiness stemmed from the fact that they percieved that other people have negative opinions about them.

 

This negative reaction may or may not have even been happening. Some people might have had actual comments from people, put downs etc. Some people might feel bad about themselves based on how they have been treated, even though nobody has given them a hard time about their looks, they are almost paranoid and assume that their looks are what people are judging them on, or that by changing their looks, people will be nicer to them. Some people might just be unhappy with their lives, and think that changing their looks is the key to feeling happier. Other people could have 2nd-hand put downs, where they hear the general comments and thoughts of 'society', IE 'women with small boobs are unattractive', and so they feel constantly like they are being put down, or feel unattractive because of this.

 

In any case, my point is that it isn't really a personal decision (unless I am missing something). If a person was the last person alive, with no other humans on the planet, would they still feel this way about themselves? Or would they think it doesn't matter because nobody can see them? In my opinion, it only makes sense that it's to do with other people seeing them. The person's decision to have the surgery seems to normally be based on wanting to be accepted, or please other people, or get attention etc.

 

Although I wouldn't get cosmetic surgery, I often feel unattractive, or feel that other people think I am unattractive. Nobody has made a negative comment about my appearance for several years, but I was bullied constantly about it through school, and my instinctive feeling about what other people think about my looks seems to have stayed the same since then, even though I get compliments now. So I can see how someone can be deluded or paranoid about their looks, and how someone can actually look okay or attractive, but still think their looks are bad. With me, I don't actually care if I look like crap or not. But other people, who put high importance on their looks, they can't stand the thought of other people thinking they look bad, and they want to do something about it.

 

The 'problem' with doing it is that it doesn't get to the root of the problem. Given that looks aren't important in fact, the surgery just paints over the problem. A person is insecure in one way or another, and has the surgery. Sure they might feel better about themselves because of the surgery, but they are actually deluded in thinking that the surgery is important (or to put it another way, they are deluded that thinking that the root of their unhappiness is their looks). There will be some people who know that the surgery doesn't actually matter, and they're just 'playing the game' IE they know that they will get better treatment from people after they look better, but they also know that this is just because other people are shallow, rather than feel like it is important to look good. This reasoning I imagine is rare, because it's unlikely that someone who thinks that looks aren't important, would evem go through all the expense, risk and hassle of surgery anyway.

 

I think that a person who is unhappy because of their looks needs to be given confidence in themselves to see that their looks aren't important one way or the other. I know lots of people who put themselves down, or feel unattractive, and try to change their appearance (not through surgery). I tell them that it just doesn't matter, and people who are judging them and saying they're ugly are just morons. I think it's healthier for someone to say "I feel ugly, but that's not what's important" rather than say "I feel ugly, it's important, I will get surgery". People should change their reaction to ugliness, rather than want change the ugliness. If they can just deal with put downs and negativity, and realise that it isn't important what they look like, then they'd be happier. After cosmetic surgery, they will still have the same opinions about looks, and keep trying in other areas presumably, whenever they feel insecure. Which is why you see people have surgery over and over again, depending on how unhappy they are (i think). If they could just get some confidence, or lose their concern for appearances, then they wouldn't feel bad and they wouldn't have the surgery.

 

I don't, however, think this issue is that important! Believe it or not. I do think it's very interesting to debate and talk about. But ultimately, if put into perspective with world issues, it isn't a big deal. Like I said before, I think generally it is a 'shallow' thing to do, in as much as, it shows great concern for appearances, but that person isn't causing other people harm by having the surgery. It's only bad when that person themselves judges other people on their appearances. It's one thing to feel ugly and change yourself because you think other people think it's important, it's quite another to think it's important to look good, therefore people who don't look good are wrong. Also, like I said, I'm open to other explanations of why someone might get cosmetic surgery, and I could be totally wrong in my opinions.

[compassionategirl]

Hmmm...I suppose then by many of your standards I would be "shallow."

 

I am not at all against plastic surgery. If I wanted fake tits simply because I thought they would look good on me, then that would be reason enough for me to get it. If I wanted a face lift to look younger, I'd get it. maybe when i am 70 i will. yes I am vain.

 

The only thing that would make me feel guilty is spending that money on me instead of using it in the fight against AR, or another noble cause, but sometimes you need to take care of yourself once in a blue moon, especially to be able to live sanely. Sorry - but I cant be swayed by considerations of reinforcing the status quo of male dominated etc etc. like some of you mention - not with regards to plastic surgery that is.

 

I am sure the above sentiments will surprise none of you.

 

Editted TO ADD: Actually, no I wouldnt get a face lift because it might look too weird - but I would certainly consider getting a less invasive "skin rejuvenating" procedure done.

 

There is nothing wrong with wanting to look good, and I wont be made to feel guilty or like an "feminist traitor" or "anti-feminist" because of it. Sorry.

Edited January 31, 2006 by compassionategirl

[Richard]

I don't think it's a good idea to say someone is shallow for whatever reason, because that suggests that it's an either or situation. Almost everyone does some things which are shallow. A person would have to be pretty shallow for me to refer to them as a shallow person. Someone can do various shallow things and not be overwhelmingly shallow in my opinion. But those things in themselves are still shallow.

 

Like uhmm... someone can eat candy. But how much candy would they have to eat before you described them as a Candy Eater? They'd have to eat candy pretty much constantly "Let me introduce you, this is Kev. He's a candy eater. He eats candy all the time".

 

I have a friend who is obsessed with his looks, puts other people down on their looks, won't date someone unless he thinks they're hot, he tells his girlfriends they need to lose weight to stay with him, he won't 'let' them wear certain clothes because it'd embarrass him, he will only buy fashionable clothes (keeps up with what's fashionable), he spends lots of money on clothes, he likes to have expensive stuff in general and thinks it's important to have cost more money, he is embarassed to be with me when I have long hair in public, he thinks money is one of the most important things in life...

 

I'd describe him as being shallow, it is one of his very strong personality traits and it comes through all the time when I talk to him.

Edited January 31, 2006 by Richard

[compassionategirl]

I'm right with you on being turned off by "cosmetic surgery" (not "reconstructive surgery"). I'm amazed at how many women on some fitness boards I'm on have had breast implants. FITNESS and "major surgery to 'correct' something that isn't even 'defective"" just don't go together in my book. Even worse, perhaps, are the video exercise instructors (I work out at home) who get implants. Karen Voight is a very respected iinstructor, but she lost some of my respect (and I couldn't workout "with her" for a while) when she went from her natuaral "A-cup" to a "D' cup.

 

It seems to me Kathyrn that losing "some" respect for somebody solely because they get breast implants is a bit...well...shallow - the very same thing that you accuse a breast implantee of being.

[compassionategirl]

 

I have a friend who ....puts other people down on their looks,

 

NOT COOL. That is just plain cruel, and I am definitely anti-cruel.

 

won't date someone unless he thinks they're hot,

 

hmm...well, I can totally understand the need to date somebody that you are attracted to. Is that so outrageous? I dont think it is by any means.

 

he tells his girlfriends they need to lose weight to stay with him,

 

Again, mean. I am anti-gratuitous meanness.

 

he won't 'let' them wear certain clothes because it'd embarrass him,

 

again, not cool.

 

he will only buy fashionable clothes (keeps up with what's fashionable),

 

again, not cool. It is okay to buy cruelty free clothes that you think look good on you, but if a name / designer brand is a requirement for no other reason than it being "designer", then yes, I agree that is superficial...

he spends lots of money on clothes, he likes to have expensive stuff in general and thinks it's important to have cost more money,

 

Consistently spending lots of money on clothes is also shallow so I agree with you on that. But I have occasionally spent lots of money on items, like for example (cruelty free) boots. Not because they were a name brand, but because I liked the way they looked on me and made me feel, and they cost what they cost. if I could have found the identical looking boot, but "no name" brand, that cost a lot less, I would gladly have bought it.

 

he is embarassed to be with me when I have long hair in public, he thinks money is one of the most important things in life...

 

Yup, very shallow. Money is certainly not the most important thing in life, but I gotta tell you that having lots of it would make me very happy and one of the first things I would do with it is open up a "Farm Sanctuary" type of place and that would buy me tremendous happiness indeed. And it would also allow me to go on the Sea Shepherd expedition to interfere with illegal Japanese whaling, etc etc you get my point. I wish money was concentrated in the hands of philanthropic people, not shallow people pursuing a designer label and expensive cars and mansions , etc etc.

 

I'd describe him as being shallow, it is one of his very strong personality traits and it comes through all the time when I talk to him.

 

Yup, I would agree with you based on the above. And I would still get cosmetic surgery if I wanted to satisfy my vain inclinations.

 

Edited January 31, 2006 by compassionategirl

[Richard]

Only dating hot people shows a concern with appearance, which is what I'm talking about. I realise that it's how almost everyone behaves, but i'd say that it is a shallow trait in anyone, that either A) they want someone hot or B) they can't get past someone's looks if they aren't hot.

 

They're either saying that someone looking good is important to them, or they're saying that regardless of how nice someone is, if they're not hot then they don't want to date them. Either way is a concern with appearance.

 

shallowness to me is concern for face value, not looking deeply into things.

[compassionategirl]

Richard, somebody can be as nice as they want, but if I am not attracted to them, then I am not attracted to them (or them not to me for that matter).

 

And yes, I would imagine some people (though by no means all) would like to date somebody to whom they are attracted to.

 

That is not to say that somebody cant "grow on you" as you get to know them and become attractive in your eyes, even though you initially didnt think so.

 

That is how I felt about my ex-boyfriend Jimmy. When I first met him, I wasnt really attracted to him. We dated and I ended up falling for him and thought he was one of the hottest guys I had ever dated. My friends disagreed but I couldnt give a flying f$#ck. Obviously beauty is a very subjective thing and in the eye of the beholder. The point though is that he did become attractive to me as I got to know him, and attraction is important to me yes.

 

My hats go off to people who can completely and utterly ignore the outer. If you can truly be with somebody to whom you are not physically attracted to in the least, then that is truly amazing, and I have total respect for you.

 

Having said that, I also couldnt date somebody who was hot but had nothing else to offer, especially no compassion for all living things. Lack of compassion = big problem for compash.

 

And I certainly would never be mean to anybody for such superficial reasons, unless you are defining not wanting a romantic relationship with them as being mean to them?

 

Hmm..i guess i want it all then. Arent I lucky that Matt seems to be the whole nine yards.

Edited January 31, 2006 by compassionategirl

[Richard]

I am almost completely alone in my views on appearances, with only about 4 people in my life I've talked to who agree with me so it's hard to put across what I am saying without appearing to be totally ridiculous, because people really don't see it at all the same way as me. I think it is sad that people think it's okay to dismiss people because of their looks yeah. I am not sure that it's 'mean' as such, because if you want a partner who is hot, then that's what you want, it isn't mean to do that, it's what you're looking for and it's not like you're attacking anyone, and not like you owe anyone anything. But in the same way, my friend who tells his girlfriends to lose weight isn't being mean, that is just his criteria for girlfriends. To me, that's all the same thing. They don't make sense to me as reasons to like someone. Likewise, I have a friend who will only date girls who don't have brown eyes. You may laugh at this, but again, it's all the same to me, it all seems kind of 'woah'. It isn't mean, but just seems to not be the point. "Hey, so uh I think we've got a great friendship, and i've been thinking about maybe..." - "Nope, you got brown eyes, sorry." To me, that's the same as any other physical reason to not date people, apart from in instances where someone is so physically repulsive that you are frightened to look at them, in which case it would be hard to date them or be around them and I would understand that more.

[compassionategirl]

Hmm...no Richard I suspect that my views expressed above will be the unpopular ones and that most people will agree with you.

 

Well, my first reaction to the "must have brown eyes" thing is that that IS odd/shallow/superficial/low or whatever word you used.

 

Hmm....is that inconsistent with my position? Dunno..just thinkin' out loud here.

 

I know that I certainly dont have specific "requirements" like that (well, maybe except for a 6 pack ), but rather "preferences."

 

What I mean by "I cant date somebody that I am not attracted to" is simply that I need there to be an attraction. Whom I find attractive, or come to find attractive via getting to know them better like my ex, is not necessarily somebody that another woman would find attractive. I am sure that most people here who are with a partner find them to be sexy, hot or attractive, no? Attraction to me doesnt come down to an eye colour, etc. It is really the whole entire package, inside and out. Know what I mean?

 

okay you have managed to make me feel like a total heartless b***tch. I know that wasnt your intention though...or was it? . well, i guess if the shoe fits natalie....

[Richard]

People generally don't agree with what I am saying, they agree with what you're saying. They either find their partner sexy from the start, or come to think of them as sexy after knowing them, but either way they require sexiness, which I don't. I don't think that wanting a sexy partner makes anyone heartless, but I would describe it as a shallow trait, even though it is common in almost everyone I meet.

[compassionategirl]

I meant most people that posted on this thread, not generally. I suspect that my sentiments above will be frowned upon here.

 

at any rate, dont really know what else to say about all this.

[Richard]

Naw I don't think so. I am pretty much expecting a verbal ass-kicking myself in fact.