Dr. Furnham cures type 2 diabetes, but drug comapny objects

[beforewisdom]

Basically: Drug company blocks article about how patients cured diabetes through diet and lifestyle and were able to discontinue their diabetes drugs. Joel Fuhrman MD has cured hundreds of people of diabetes using diet and lifestyle. The American Diabetic Association wanted him to write about his work -- but then objected because their sponsor, Eli Lilly drug company, might feel threatened by an MD promoting a cure which could destroy the market

[pazios2002]

yeah he has been telling that story for a while. I would imagine that other vegan doctors have run into the same problems. I find I make out better with his diet then with say Barnard's. My fasting sugar was high 112 with a barnard approach, and about 89 with the furhman approach. That is not to say that I dont add in grain based carbs, it is just to say that I it probably only represents 15 to 20 percent of my diet. I find it works for me.

[medman]

That must be the biggest POS "journal" if they're run on a drug company's dime. Using diet/weight loss/exercise to get diabetics off their medication is not news at all, it's every doctor's ultimate goal. This is one of the reasons peer-reviewed journals are the only credible ones...despite what some conspiracy theorists might think, they're not owned by drug companies.

[xjohanx]

That must be the biggest POS "journal" if they're run on a drug company's dime. Using diet/weight loss/exercise to get diabetics off their medication is not news at all, it's every doctor's ultimate goal. This is one of the reasons peer-reviewed journals are the only credible ones...despite what some conspiracy theorists might think, they're not owned by drug companies.

 

Yeah. Only problem is that when you tell a T2D person to excersise they look at you as if you were retarded.

Lot's of people can "cure" T2D with excersise and weight loss (what kind of diet is not very important) but you would never see great results in a study with such an intervention because people don't want to change. Taking pills is a lot easier.

Fuhrman might have helped a few people but that's persons who have already decided to get healthier, eat better, excersise more etc. So his results are awesome but not very impressive in the great scheme (or whatever the expression is).

[Ducati]

Half of my family members are diabetic or borderline. Not one of them has ever been told by any doctor to try a change in lifestyle. They are told to monitor their blood sugar and take insulin. The Doctors can make a lot more money by prescribing drugs than by prescribing a cure.

 

Diet is very very important in weight loss. People who eat high fat diets with low nutrition will not lose weight. People who eat healthy diets will lose weight and they have more energy to be more active.

[medman]

Ducati, it is a completely different story regarding whether someone is truly insulin-dependent or not. Lifestyle changes have a far greater impact on type 2 than type 1.

 

Also, I really don't know where this kind of bullshit comes from, but doctors don't make money from what they prescribe. Prescribing insulin does not make them any more money than discussing lifestyle changes.

[beforewisdom]

Diet is very very important in weight loss. People who eat high fat diets with low nutrition will not lose weight. People who eat healthy diets will lose weight and they have more energy to be more active.

 

Losing weight is simply a matter of taking in less energy ( calories ) then you use.

 

If you eat high fat or low nutrition food, but don't take in enough calories, you can still lose weight.

 

It is also possible to gain weight eating healthy food, you just take in more energy(calories) than you use.

 

Weight loss isn't always the same as health.

[Ducati]

Ducati, it is a completely different story regarding whether someone is truly insulin-dependent or not. Lifestyle changes have a far greater impact on type 2 than type 1.

 

Also, I really don't know where this kind of bullshit comes from, but doctors don't make money from what they prescribe. Prescribing insulin does not make them any more money than discussing lifestyle changes.

 

 

Medman,

 

Here is an article explaining that "bullshit". http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0815/is_n185_v19/ai_15852403/

 

And there are hundreds of cases of insulin dependent Type II diabetics who have cured themselves with lifestyle change. And there have been hundreds of cases of Type I diabetics significantly reducing their insulin dependence from lifestyle change. I highly recommend you read the China Study.

 

BeforeWisdom,

 

I used to believe that "Energy in < Energy out" line for a long time. I was fat for most of my life despite tracking my calories and working out extensively. When I switched to a high carb/low fat mostly raw diet, it was the first time in my life I lost weight and kept it off. I eat more calories than I did when I was heavy, and I exercise less. Weightloss is not nearly as simple as counting calories. Yes, you can lose weight by restricting calories, but only a person who doesn't understand nutrition would recommend this. The old adage of "Diet & Exercise" is a complete and total oxymoron. How, can someone restrict their calorie intake, then, exert more energy to lose weight? You can do one or the other, but not both. Not unless you change the diet to one with more nutrition.

 

The 5 macro nutrients are like the gas in the car. The hundreds of micro nutrients are like the tread on the tires, the oil in the engine, the airfilter, the spark-plug gap, the engine computer, etc. etc. Sure the gas will make the car run, but to get it to run efficiently, there are hundreds of little things that need to work properly.

 

I never said you couldn't gain weight from healthy foods. I said "People who eat a healthy diet will lose weight". A healthy diet involves proper nutrition and moderation. Overeating any food is not healthy.

[medman]

Ducati,

 

I find you a little patronizing. The article you linked is on how some companies are trying to bribe doctors and pharmacists to use their products, which is not even legal here in Canada (and by the looks of it, nor is it in the US). To assert that this is a practice the majority of professionals engage in is downright insulting. Also, to recommend the China study as though it's something I haven't read is even more patronizing. I realize you may not know my background, but I've been veg for 10+ years, have an undergrad degree in physiology and have finished 2 years of med school, so I'm fairly up to date on things health-related.

 

And when did I ever say diet and lifestyle can't improve the condition of diabetics? I said it has a far greater impact ton type 2 vs type 1, which is true.

 

I stick by my statement that it's bullshit to think doctors get paid to prescribe things. The payment is for seeing the patient, the prescription (lifestyle change, medication, or even nothing at all) doesn't factor into the billing system at all. Pretending all doctors are getting under-the-table payment from pharmaceutical companies is downright insane.

[xjohanx]

I used to believe that "Energy in < Energy out" line for a long time. I was fat for most of my life despite tracking my calories and working out extensively. When I switched to a high carb/low fat mostly raw diet, it was the first time in my life I lost weight and kept it off. I eat more calories than I did when I was heavy, and I exercise less. Weightloss is not nearly as simple as counting calories. Yes, you can lose weight by restricting calories, but only a person who doesn't understand nutrition would recommend this. The old adage of "Diet & Exercise" is a complete and total oxymoron. How, can someone restrict their calorie intake, then, exert more energy to lose weight? You can do one or the other, but not both. Not unless you change the diet to one with more nutrition.

 

Instead of actually arguing too much with you I'm just going to ask you to provide a source for this statement. Anecdotes schmanecdotes, all low-carbers claim the same bullshit you do. "I eat more calories now but because my insulin is low I lost weight anyway". BS. Please post some studies or something other than your fairytale if you want to be taken seriously.

 

The 5 macro nutrients are like the gas in the car. The hundreds of micro nutrients are like the tread on the tires, the oil in the engine, the airfilter, the spark-plug gap, the engine computer, etc. etc. Sure the gas will make the car run, but to get it to run efficiently, there are hundreds of little things that need to work properly.

 

I'm curious to know what the 5 macros are. Is alcohol one of them? Awesome. I think we all can agree that vitamins and minerals are needed to run efficiently but there is no proof that non-essential micronutrients play any role in this really. So "hundreds"? Not really.

 

I never said you couldn't gain weight from healthy foods. I said "People who eat a healthy diet will lose weight". A healthy diet involves proper nutrition and moderation. Overeating any food is not healthy.

 

You might twist your words around to not look totally crazy but your statements are not correct.

 

People who eat high fat diets with low nutrition will not lose weight

 

Atkins, Low carb high fat, Protein power etc are all diets that are high fat and people lose weight on them.

[Ducati]

Ducati,

 

I find you a little patronizing. The article you linked is on how some companies are trying to bribe doctors and pharmacists to use their products, which is not even legal here in Canada (and by the looks of it, nor is it in the US). To assert that this is a practice the majority of professionals engage in is downright insulting. Also, to recommend the China study as though it's something I haven't read is even more patronizing. I realize you may not know my background, but I've been veg for 10+ years, have an undergrad degree in physiology and have finished 2 years of med school, so I'm fairly up to date on things health-related.

 

And when did I ever say diet and lifestyle can't improve the condition of diabetics? I said it has a far greater impact ton type 2 vs type 1, which is true.

 

I stick by my statement that it's bullshit to think doctors get paid to prescribe things. The payment is for seeing the patient, the prescription (lifestyle change, medication, or even nothing at all) doesn't factor into the billing system at all. Pretending all doctors are getting under-the-table payment from pharmaceutical companies is downright insane.

 

 

Hey Medman,

 

Yeah, it was patronizing. Just like your post to me calling something bullshit. Like how it feels?

Edited June 16, 2010 by Ducati

[Ducati]

 

Instead of actually arguing too much with you I'm just going to ask you to provide a source for this statement. Anecdotes schmanecdotes, all low-carbers claim the same bullshit you do. "I eat more calories now but because my insulin is low I lost weight anyway". BS. Please post some studies or something other than your fairytale if you want to be taken seriously.

 

Read some of Dr. McDougalls studies.

 

 

 

I'm curious to know what the 5 macros are. Is alcohol one of them? Awesome. I think we all can agree that vitamins and minerals are needed to run efficiently but there is no proof that non-essential micronutrients play any role in this really. So "hundreds"? Not really.

 

Carbs, Protein, Fat, Water, and Oxygen. No evidence? You mean B12 deficiency is a myth? Anemia? Magnesium?

 

 

You might twist your words around to not look totally crazy but your statements are not correct.

 

Proof?

 

Atkins, Low carb high fat, Protein power etc are all diets that are high fat and people lose weight on them.

 

You can lose weight by dehydrating yourself, or not eating at all. Doesn't mean it is healthy and it doesn't mean they will keep weight off. People who do low carb fad diets are highly unlikely to keep the weight off.

[medman]

Hey Medman,

 

Yeah, it was patronizing. Just like your post to me calling something bullshit. Like how it feels?

 

I called out bullshit because I saw it. What prescriptions patients take (if anything) after visiting a doctor does not affect how he/she gets paid. The implication you then made by linking that article is that doctors on the whole are being paid under the table by pharmaceutical companies. That's as ludicrous as asserting that all cops are being paid under the table by the mob. I'm sure the occasional one is (on both accounts), but it is truly a tiny minority.

 

Trying intentionally to piss me off for calling you out on your bullshit...I can see why you might get defensive if you felt I was trying to attack you personally (which I was not). But there's simply no way you can back up the claim that doctors benefit from keeping patients on insulin. It's in every doctor's interest to try to get patients off/to reduce their insulin, but usually it's the patient who is unwilling to make any lifestyle changes.

 

Also: In before xjohanx points out oxygen and water aren't macronutrients.

[Ducati]

By most definitions, oxygen and water are macronutrients. Just because your book doesn't include them, doesn't make them not macronutrients.

 

# A nutrient is a chemical that an organism needs to live and grow or a substance used in an organism's metabolism which must be taken in from its environment.Whitney, Elanor and Sharon Rolfes. 2005. Understanding Nutrition, 10th edition, p 6. Thomson-Wadsworth. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macronutrient

 

# the elements required in large amounts by all living things

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/macronutrient

 

# An element required in large proportion by plants and other life forms for survival and growth. Macronutrients include Nitrogen (N), Potassium (K), and Phosphorous (P).

www.alken-murray.com/glossarybug2.html

 

# An essential nutrient required in a relative large amount.

www.jimmythomas.com/training/fitnessterms.htm

 

# A major chemical element essential for normal growth and development. In tissue culture media, macronutrients are those required in concentrations above 0.5 millimole/litre.

www.bioportal.gc.ca/English/View.asp

 

# One of the nutrients that are required daily in large amounts and that are thought of in quantities of ounces and grams. They include carbohydrates, protein, lipids, and water.

www.bodybuilding.com/fun/sportnutrition9.htm

 

# macronutrients - Nutrients needed by organisms in relatively large quantities.

https://www.soils.org/lessons/young-scientist-soil-glossary

 

 

 

As far as kickbacks are concerned:

 

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article25696.htm

http://lcmedia.typepad.com/pharmola/2009/03/feds-to-doctors-stop-illegal-kickbacks-or-face-.html

http://www.thedcasite.com/chemotherapy_kickbacks.html

http://www.nj.com/business/index.ssf/2010/01/johnsonjohnson_accused_of_payi.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/04/health/policy/04doctors.html

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/city_region/breaking_news/2007/09/bristolmyers_sq.html

http://painmedicinenews.com/index.asp?show=swatch&issue_id=575&section_id=83&article_id=14207

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/23832049/detail.html

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2010/mar/08/doctors-lawyers-kickbacks-case-nets-another-guilty/

http://www.fiercehealthcare.com/story/insurers-give-doctors-kickbacks-prescribing-generic-drugs/2008-10-31

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37645205/

http://onlinehealthnews.org/2010/05/cincinnati-hospital-fined-100-million-for-doctor-kickbacks/

http://www.nationalreviewofmedicine.com/issue/2005/02_28/2_practice_management_04.html

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=799&dat=19890501&id=0ikLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=m1EDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6286,2973393

 

I could post thousands of articles.

 

And why is it in a doctor's interest to get someone off insulin? If they remain diabetic, they will require more future treatment and mean more money for the doctors. Doctors have no incentive to cure problems, only treat them.

 

Almost every type II diabetic, or individual with hyper tension, high cholesterol, or any medical problem that could be fixed by lifestyle change has told me that their doctors prescribe them drugs and have never indicated that they could cure their condition through lifestyle change. Once in a great while do I meet someone who had health problems and was advised by a doctor to change their lifestyle. I know a lot of doctors and I work with a lot of doctors. I wouldn't take medical advise from all but one.

 

You have a completely different system in Canada. Your system is patient based. Our system is profit based.

[xjohanx]

Read some of Dr. McDougalls studies.

 

You need to show me which one(s) because I can't find any that's related to this topic. I think he only published like one or two studies. I'm waiting for the new one on RA though. He also has some "comments" published but I highly doubt that's what you're talking about.

Just to repeat myself. Please provide me with some actual studies backing up what you're saying, not just a name of a guy you think have published studies that would prove your point (when in fact the person have not done so).

 

Carbs, Protein, Fat, Water, and Oxygen. No evidence? You mean B12 deficiency is a myth? Anemia? Magnesium?

 

When talking about nutrition the macros are carbs, fat and protein. But sure I guess by some definitions water and oxygen can be called macros to.

If you re-read what I posted you'll see that I agreed that minerals and vitamins are essential and needed for life. B12, iron and magnesium are all within those categories. However I think we have discovered around 89 metals (far from all are essential) and I think there's 13 vitamins. So what I was saying is that "hundreds" of micronutrients isn't correct.

 

You can lose weight by dehydrating yourself, or not eating at all. Doesn't mean it is healthy and it doesn't mean they will keep weight off. People who do low carb fad diets are highly unlikely to keep the weight off.

 

Why argue against something that no one is saying. I'm not claiming high fat diets to be a healthy way to lose weight and neither is anyone else. You said a person wouldn't lose weight if he/she ate high fat and that's not true. And if you would be intrested in fact you would know that several studies show similar results regarding weight loss maintenance on prudent and low carb diets. Fiction is more fun though, I know.

[medman]

Everyone likes a good story about doctors getting bribed, but I still have trouble believing it is a large portion of them. I agree that your system is built differently, but the goal of every doctor is to make their patient well. I have trouble believing American doctors wouldn't recommend lifestyle changes to their diabetic patients...it is the foundation of diabetes management here in Canada. While I realize the American system is more profit-motivated, the American doctors I have encountered all seemed of equal integrity to the ones here. Here in Canada, if a doctor was ever found to be taking money under the table, or to be neglecting to give lifestyle advice to diabetic patients, they would be officially reprimanded by the College of Physicians and Surgeons with either a fine or suspension (or revoking of their license if they were taking significant bribes), and their name would be printed in the back of the Canadian Medical Association's journal along with a description of their violations and punishment.

 

We run a pretty tight ship up here.