What Is A More Compelling/Insightful/Morally Justifiable Job

[socalfusions]

1) Living a lifestyle that participates in professional Mixed Martial Arts and devotes oneself to showing that a passionate vegan lifestyle can compete at and dominate at the highest pinnacle of combat sports while inspiring others to acknowledge and think differently about their current train of thought about the ethics of animal rights in general.

 

2) Committing your life to the professional and covert rescue of live farm animals and sea animals around the world with theatrics and deception that will create a legend never before seen and which will create a dramatic example to shake people out of apathy while also becoming the worlds first true literal super hero.

[MartinVegartin]

I would say that both will require a high level of skill, determination and cunning.

 

The first one could result in injuries to you. The second could result in having to face legal action. The second one would also need a lot of oganisation and logistical planning.

 

Both could influence people to try to emulate your achievements and to think about their own actions. The second one could alienate people if not done carefully. I think both could help to further the cause. Both are laudable ambitions.

 

I would go for the one that is easier for you to achieve.

[Ducati]

People only like super heroes if they are fictional. Anytime you here about someone acting like a hero in real life, most people think they are a moron or glory hound.

 

I actually like super villains myself. Why not become a super villain that produces a virus that stops humans from reproducing:)

[socalfusions]

I would say that both will require a high level of skill, determination and cunning.

 

The first one could result in injuries to you. The second could result in having to face legal action. The second one would also need a lot of oganisation and logistical planning.

 

Both could influence people to try to emulate your achievements and to think about their own actions. The second one could alienate people if not done carefully. I think both could help to further the cause. Both are laudable ambitions.

 

I would go for the one that is easier for you to achieve.

 

I agree with everything you said, the first one although potentially very inspirational seems to be more for personal gain in terms of proving something to yourself and people while not directly changing the world for the better while the second seems to directly change the world while confronting a real world issue similar to a crime against humanity such as the holocaust but in this case, sentient animals. I would second that it would need a great deal of organization and logistical planning considering that it is a crime to do what many animal rescuers do today although many of them that you see in prison have taken part in arson and other destructive practices to ensure the most economic damage. Would you agree that this is the right course of action, to ensure that people profit the least from the exploitation of animals via property damage but making sure you don't harm any living being? People surely don't see that as an honorable cause when they see burning buildings and trucks on fire but honestly it is effective. Would batman cause property damage on a consistent basis to accomplish his goal? I guess he sure blows stuff up in the movie but I'm uncertain if he does that to survive and avoid the authorities at all costs or he agrees to that train of thought. Thanks for your thoughtful input.

 

People only like super heroes if they are fictional. Anytime you here about someone acting like a hero in real life, most people think they are a moron or glory hound.

 

I actually like super villains myself. Why not become a super villain that produces a virus that stops humans from reproducing:)

 

I guess I can understand where you're coming from since there really have been zero bona fide, professional and active superheroes that have been witnessed by the public beside those who have done it for the "5 minutes of fame." That is actually an incredible idea since irresponsible human beings (the vast majority of planet earth) are the #1 cause of mother natures current predicaments. The question is would you really be considered a super villain since you're actually doing the planet a favor?

[Cold Fission]

If we rescued animals from death row i bet the media would label us terrorists.I think they already do lol.

 

Being both would be the best.cage fighter by day, rescuing animals by night.

[Duncan_Idaho]

MMA fighter - that gets the mainstream media to promote you and you can really influence people without having to change their perception matrix to make them understand something.

The Zorro/Batman thing is nobler and maybe more satisfying and maybe more rewarding but it would achieve less for the very cause and more for you. It may develop you better as a person too.

If I may, I'd add a subdivision of the Zorro thing - create a secret sect which will influence politicians and even the people who influence the politicians:P Another subdivision - promote the vegan lifestyle. But you'd need MMA fighters to do so

Anyway, Morihei Weshiba turned vegetarian towards the end of his life. He is said to have spoken the language of the animals too. And he was Japan's best fighter in his time.

[MartinVegartin]

Would you agree that this is the right course of action, to ensure that people profit the least from the exploitation of animals via property damage but making sure you don't harm any living being? People surely don't see that as an honorable cause when they see burning buildings and trucks on fire but honestly it is effective. Would batman cause property damage on a consistent basis to accomplish his goal? I guess he sure blows stuff up in the movie but I'm uncertain if he does that to survive and avoid the authorities at all costs or he agrees to that train of thought.

 

I am unsure if causing damage is a good move. When it comes to fighting for human rights, I think people will approve of more things done to achieve the aims. Fighting for human freedom sometimes involves killing. When two countries are at war there is usually little objection to killing the enemy. It could be said that we are at war with abusers. But we are not fighting for our country or our people. We are campaigning for other species. Most humans don't care what happens to other species. Most humans would condemn acts of violence or property damage in the pursuit of AR. For that reason alone, never mind the moral one, violence shouldn't be used.

 

In war time, commandos can raid the enemy's land, kill lots of the enemy and do great damage. But they have a safe haven to return to. And they return as heroes. There is no safe haven for AR activists. And no hero's return.

 

I think, but am not sure, that doing as little damage as possible would be the best course of action. Some damage in freeing lab or farm animals would be unavoidable but it should be kept to a minimum and only done to doors and cages to free the prisoners.

 

One thing that every AR activist should practise is parkour. Experienced practitioners can do seemingly gravity defying leaps and climbs. Have a look on youtube for a video called:

Russian Ninjas, Russian Climbing Ninja, Parkour in Latvia .

No one would be able to catch them. It lasts for 8 minutes and 24 seconds. They will have scouted the area and did practice runs but that is what anyone should do. AR activists should know the area they intend to operate in and look for the best places to get in and out, and the best escape routes.

 

The first couple of minutes of the video is boring but then it explodes into non-stop action. I am the one wearing the frogman suit.

[Ducati]

Does anyone have contact with aliens? I always felt that if an alien power came and threatened humans with the same "mercy" humans show to animals, maybe humans would wise up. Or, the aliens could just eat all the humans then leave. I would be happy with that option as well.

[socalfusions]

If we rescued animals from death row i bet the media would label us terrorists.I think they already do lol.

 

Being both would be the best.cage fighter by day, rescuing animals by night.

 

Yes I believe that AR activists that actively break into property to rescue animals are considered terrorists in the United States, however it might only be for those who cause severe arson or destruction of property. That would be hard to be a successful mma fighter that trained almost daily then sneak out at night to rescue animals unless you took days off.

 

MMA fighter - that gets the mainstream media to promote you and you can really influence people without having to change their perception matrix to make them understand something.

The Zorro/Batman thing is nobler and maybe more satisfying and maybe more rewarding but it would achieve less for the very cause and more for you. It may develop you better as a person too.

If I may, I'd add a subdivision of the Zorro thing - create a secret sect which will influence politicians and even the people who influence the politicians:P Another subdivision - promote the vegan lifestyle. But you'd need MMA fighters to do so

Anyway, Morihei Weshiba turned vegetarian towards the end of his life. He is said to have spoken the language of the animals too. And he was Japan's best fighter in his time.

 

It would surely be easier to influence people with a profession that is socially acceptable, the thing about politicians is that they are incredibly corrupt unfortunately and considering that many of their decisions are based off of profit I don't see it being an easy feat, but it's a great idea nonetheless. Morihei Weshiba is an interesting figure, pretty awesome that he founded Aikido

 

Would you agree that this is the right course of action, to ensure that people profit the least from the exploitation of animals via property damage but making sure you don't harm any living being? People surely don't see that as an honorable cause when they see burning buildings and trucks on fire but honestly it is effective. Would batman cause property damage on a consistent basis to accomplish his goal? I guess he sure blows stuff up in the movie but I'm uncertain if he does that to survive and avoid the authorities at all costs or he agrees to that train of thought.

 

I am unsure if causing damage is a good move. When it comes to fighting for human rights, I think people will approve of more things done to achieve the aims. Fighting for human freedom sometimes involves killing. When two countries are at war there is usually little objection to killing the enemy. It could be said that we are at war with abusers. But we are not fighting for our country or our people. We are campaigning for other species. Most humans don't care what happens to other species. Most humans would condemn acts of violence or property damage in the pursuit of AR. For that reason alone, never mind the moral one, violence shouldn't be used.

 

In war time, commandos can raid the enemy's land, kill lots of the enemy and do great damage. But they have a safe haven to return to. And they return as heroes. There is no safe haven for AR activists. And no hero's return.

 

I think, but am not sure, that doing as little damage as possible would be the best course of action. Some damage in freeing lab or farm animals would be unavoidable but it should be kept to a minimum and only done to doors and cages to free the prisoners.

 

One thing that every AR activist should practise is parkour. Experienced practitioners can do seemingly gravity defying leaps and climbs. Have a look on youtube for a video called:

Russian Ninjas, Russian Climbing Ninja, Parkour in Latvia .

No one would be able to catch them. It lasts for 8 minutes and 24 seconds. They will have scouted the area and did practice runs but that is what anyone should do. AR activists should know the area they intend to operate in and look for the best places to get in and out, and the best escape routes.

 

The first couple of minutes of the video is boring but then it explodes into non-stop action. I am the one wearing the frogman suit.

 

Gratitude for your incredible feedback, I absolutely agree to your thoughts on everything. It is truly sad how humanity can accept casualties in war but not on sentient beings because of discrimination. I believe that the majority of the population doesn't care about how the animals that they consume are treated, but when they see companion animals or those with higher intelligences such as dolphins and whales they have a change of heart. It is probably true that people would look down upon destruction of property as they don't care to see the true purpose behind it, I'd have to also say it's not going to do anything positive in the scenario that you're trying to inspire people and push animal rescue into being socially acceptable.

 

Wow! I was completely unfamiliar that parkour was what that activity was. I had seen it many times and always figured it was just a random thing but you're absolutely right that it would be crucial for making escapes. I can't picture 99% of authorities being able to perform feats such as those. That would be an almost guaranteed way of creating the highest chance of escaping considering you knew the local area. Thank you for the video, I did some parkour around my house right after I watched it, very inspirational stuff.

 

Does anyone have contact with aliens? I always felt that if an alien power came and threatened humans with the same "mercy" humans show to animals, maybe humans would wise up. Or, the aliens could just eat all the humans then leave. I would be happy with that option as well.

 

You know this has been a very common thought on my mind regarding a higher intelligence determining that human beings would need a reminder of how evil some of the things we do really are. This would surely make us think twice, most likely changing the way we do things immediately though if faced with the threat of eradication.

[Duncan_Idaho]

WOH!!! This parcour thing rocks! I'll be doing it soon I guess! Thanx for inspiring me

[VeganEssentials]

Yes I believe that AR activists that actively break into property to rescue animals are considered terrorists in the United States, however it might only be for those who cause severe arson or destruction of property.

 

Nope. Check into the famous "SHAC 7" about that one. They were imprisoned and are now labeled as "terrorists" from here on out for doing such subversive things as...get ready for it... protesting and sending black faxes to companies to mess up their machines.

 

These days, if you're going to go the liberation route, just be aware that in the USA, you're going to get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If you're caught doing ANYTHING that can be deemed a "terrorist act", be prepared to spend a few years behind bars, lose your voting rights, be under scrutiny ANY time you travel, be listed as a convicted felon, and all that good stuff. Gone are the days when people would just get a fine and criminal property damaged charges - the game has been different for many years now, and it's definitely not in favor of those who seek animal liberation.

 

The Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act changed the game and basically gives the government the ability to label and prosecute you as a terrorist for interfering with animal agribusiness, vivisection, etc. One of those great post 9-11 things that were shuttled in during the last administration, and when presented with the option to repeal it, our current leader chose to keep it in place. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss....

 

Didn't help with those folks from the ELF who REALLY helped bring this one down on everyone. Their "brilliant" notion of setting fire to Hummers at dealerships as a form of protest was pretty much the icing on the cake to make a case against the dreaded "Eco-Terrorists" as the FBI likes to refer to anyone who engages in any form of protest for the animals or the planet. Yep, nothing quite like doing plenty of environmental damage to make your point - it was about as good of a move as if someone had liberated a mink farm and then killed the animals they'd set free.

[MartinVegartin]

VeganEssentials is correct about the new anti-terrorist laws. We have the same draconian legislation here. But the new Con-LibDem government has hinted that it might repeal some of them. They have asked people to vote for the laws that should be scrapped. If it is not just a public relations exercise it should make some welcome changes and enable AR campaigners to campaign without being arrested.

 

People who attack the enemy often cause trouble for others. The French Resistance attacks on the nazis often resulted in dozens of innocent men and women being executed in reprisals. You have to weigh up the possible consequences of your actions and decide if they help or hinder the cause.

 

I've started a new thread about parkour with the titles of some good instruction videos. It's in the General Fitness/Other Sports section.

[Cold Fission]

These days, if you're going to go the liberation route, just be aware that in the USA, you're going to get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If you're caught doing ANYTHING that can be deemed a "terrorist act", be prepared to spend a few years behind bars, lose your voting rights, be under scrutiny ANY time you travel, be listed as a convicted felon, and all that good stuff.

Rule 1:Don't get caught.

 

Rule 2:If you are captured by the enemy make sure you are carrying 1 of these at all times to take your own life before they can.

 

http://i.imagehost.org/0870/hammer.jpg

[Ducati]

In my opinion, you will turn more people vegan by showing them what is in it for them.

 

I think protesting has its place, but it has to be peaceful. Standing in front a fur store or a KFC is a waste of time. I know because I did this and saw very little success. You might be there for months before you stop one person from buying a fur coat and save 50 animals over the course of their life, or they may decide to go to Arby's instead. If you spend that much time teaching people about the health benefits of a plant-based diet, you will have much greater success and save many more animals.

 

If someone turns to a plant-based diet for health, will they stop exploiting animals in other ways? No always, but because you stopped them from eating animals, you are saving hundreds a year. They might go to a zoo or wear leather, but they might also open their mind to animal suffering. My sister who went on a plant-based diet about a year ago told me the other day that she understands the suffering of it now. Most people who consume animal products don't want to hear about it and want to remain ignorant. But, if they have no need to defend your actions, they become open to other ideas. They even seek out ideas that support their new decisions. Someone who switches to a plant-based diet and then learns about the animal suffering and becomes a vegan is easier then trying to guilt them into stop buying fur or buying from KFC. Guilt passes quickly, but selfishness is enduring. Exploit their selfishness.

 

I think most the people here already understand the value of health and fitness, and for those of you, like me, who have lost a significant amount of weight, the people around you also see the value. I think the better shape we are in, the better example we are. Maybe even take it one step further and become a certified PT and nutritionist. People love to listen to people with certifications. Even if it only took you a week to get that certification.

 

I would love to see a vegan with common sense take a position like Jillian Michaels. She drives me insane. Most PT would be sued for doing the things she is doing.

[Duncan_Idaho]

Um, what VeganEssentials said.

And: Most of the underground organizations - far right, etc are controlled by the secret services and used for their purposes should opportunity present itself. That applies to AR movements too. Before you commit yourself to any cause, make absolutely sure that you are not just a pawn in a bigger game.

This is a good link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

This one too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ajax

Rescuing animals is a noble cause in all cases though. It just sucks when competitive laboratories use AR activists to fight the competition. Anyway, I doubt the saved animals care about the reasons why they were saved

[socalfusions]

Yes I believe that AR activists that actively break into property to rescue animals are considered terrorists in the United States, however it might only be for those who cause severe arson or destruction of property.

 

Nope. Check into the famous "SHAC 7" about that one. They were imprisoned and are now labeled as "terrorists" from here on out for doing such subversive things as...get ready for it... protesting and sending black faxes to companies to mess up their machines.

 

These days, if you're going to go the liberation route, just be aware that in the USA, you're going to get prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. If you're caught doing ANYTHING that can be deemed a "terrorist act", be prepared to spend a few years behind bars, lose your voting rights, be under scrutiny ANY time you travel, be listed as a convicted felon, and all that good stuff. Gone are the days when people would just get a fine and criminal property damaged charges - the game has been different for many years now, and it's definitely not in favor of those who seek animal liberation.

 

The Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act changed the game and basically gives the government the ability to label and prosecute you as a terrorist for interfering with animal agribusiness, vivisection, etc. One of those great post 9-11 things that were shuttled in during the last administration, and when presented with the option to repeal it, our current leader chose to keep it in place. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss....

 

Didn't help with those folks from the ELF who REALLY helped bring this one down on everyone. Their "brilliant" notion of setting fire to Hummers at dealerships as a form of protest was pretty much the icing on the cake to make a case against the dreaded "Eco-Terrorists" as the FBI likes to refer to anyone who engages in any form of protest for the animals or the planet. Yep, nothing quite like doing plenty of environmental damage to make your point - it was about as good of a move as if someone had liberated a mink farm and then killed the animals they'd set free.

 

Thats astounding that they were convicted for what they did. I wasn't aware of this case but that really does show how ridiculous Americas stand on the matter is. You'd assume that a president whos ancestors have gone through similar discrimination that many production animals are today doesn't see eye to eye on it.

 

Were the actions of the ELF the turning point for the AETA? I certainly could see how it would put any green liberation movement in a bad light. It's unfortunate that many of the liberation movement people can't see how ineffective those types of strategies are, directly and indirectly.

 

VeganEssentials is correct about the new anti-terrorist laws. We have the same draconian legislation here. But the new Con-LibDem government has hinted that it might repeal some of them. They have asked people to vote for the laws that should be scrapped. If it is not just a public relations exercise it should make some welcome changes and enable AR campaigners to campaign without being arrested.

 

People who attack the enemy often cause trouble for others. The French Resistance attacks on the nazis often resulted in dozens of innocent men and women being executed in reprisals. You have to weigh up the possible consequences of your actions and decide if they help or hinder the cause.

 

I've started a new thread about parkour with the titles of some good instruction videos. It's in the General Fitness/Other Sports section.

 

It's too bad that america doesn't give you the option to have a say on the matter. I was in contact with a woman from australia who actively fought to abolish animals as property and went on frequent animal rescues, the thing is that it's pretty much legal there as long as you don't cause property damage. Is there a large majority of those who fight for animal liberation where you live?

 

Yeah it seems like a lot of people who are fighting for the greater good forget to weigh the consequences of their actions such as the ELF people that veganessentials mentioned because otherwise it could have possibly been a legitimized movement.

 

I'll be sure to stop by that thread

 

 

 

Rule 1:Don't get caught.

 

Rule 2:If you are captured by the enemy make sure you are carrying 1 of these at all times to take your own life before they can.

 

http://i.imagehost.org/0870/hammer.jpg

 

This would definitely have to be the highest priority of anyone who took part in the liberation of animals seeing as how consequences are life altering.

 

Something that's been on my mind is how those who engage in animal liberation are caught in the first place? Poor planning, no intel, counter intel, no escape routes, etc.? You'd think someone would gear up to the teeth with gadgets and getaway vehicles/technology to avoid going to jail for multiple years.

 

In my opinion, you will turn more people vegan by showing them what is in it for them.

 

I think protesting has its place, but it has to be peaceful. Standing in front a fur store or a KFC is a waste of time. I know because I did this and saw very little success. You might be there for months before you stop one person from buying a fur coat and save 50 animals over the course of their life, or they may decide to go to Arby's instead. If you spend that much time teaching people about the health benefits of a plant-based diet, you will have much greater success and save many more animals.

 

If someone turns to a plant-based diet for health, will they stop exploiting animals in other ways? No always, but because you stopped them from eating animals, you are saving hundreds a year. They might go to a zoo or wear leather, but they might also open their mind to animal suffering. My sister who went on a plant-based diet about a year ago told me the other day that she understands the suffering of it now. Most people who consume animal products don't want to hear about it and want to remain ignorant. But, if they have no need to defend your actions, they become open to other ideas. They even seek out ideas that support their new decisions. Someone who switches to a plant-based diet and then learns about the animal suffering and becomes a vegan is easier then trying to guilt them into stop buying fur or buying from KFC. Guilt passes quickly, but selfishness is enduring. Exploit their selfishness.

 

I think most the people here already understand the value of health and fitness, and for those of you, like me, who have lost a significant amount of weight, the people around you also see the value. I think the better shape we are in, the better example we are. Maybe even take it one step further and become a certified PT and nutritionist. People love to listen to people with certifications. Even if it only took you a week to get that certification.

 

I would love to see a vegan with common sense take a position like Jillian Michaels. She drives me insane. Most PT would be sued for doing the things she is doing.

 

I'd certainly agree that protesting like you said is not nearly as effective as opening peoples eyes to the nutrition side of it through teaching the benefits of a plant based diet. In fact I went vegan in the first place from a cd on nutrition where it explained the lo-down on factory farmed animals.

 

I would also love to see a vegan take jilian michaels place considering the goal of that show is to lose weight .

 

Um, what VeganEssentials said.

And: Most of the underground organizations - far right, etc are controlled by the secret services and used for their purposes should opportunity present itself. That applies to AR movements too. Before you commit yourself to any cause, make absolutely sure that you are not just a pawn in a bigger game.

This is a good link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio

This one too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_ajax

Rescuing animals is a noble cause in all cases though. It just sucks when competitive laboratories use AR activists to fight the competition. Anyway, I doubt the saved animals care about the reasons why they were saved

 

That's a good point, I wouldn't want to be fighting for the benefit of the thing I'm trying to fight against in the first place.

[VeganEssentials]

Thats astounding that they were convicted for what they did. I wasn't aware of this case but that really does show how ridiculous Americas stand on the matter is. You'd assume that a president whos ancestors have gone through similar discrimination that many production animals are today doesn't see eye to eye on it.

 

Were the actions of the ELF the turning point for the AETA? I certainly could see how it would put any green liberation movement in a bad light. It's unfortunate that many of the liberation movement people can't see how ineffective those types of strategies are, directly and indirectly.

 

Yep, most people don't have any idea about the AETA and how it was pushed through amidst all the post-9/11 stuff, and how sad it is that the current president chose to overlook his chance to help repeal it.

 

The hype surrounding the ELF's actions came VERY close to the time when the AETA went through - many speculate that their trashing and burning tactics were pretty much the final straw as to why the gov't decided to go full-bore in making anyone who is involved in liberation a full-blown terrorist. It may just be sheer coincidence, but there's been talk for years that the ELF had a pretty heavy hand in pushing things through against the liberation movements. And, it was convenient for the gov't to simply bundle us all together even if the AR side thinks some of the ELF tactics are nutty, and vice-versa.

 

For now, being involved in the liberation aspect is some pretty risky stuff. I just always like to give people fair warning about the possible outcomes from being involved, because it's some pretty heavy stuff that can happen if you get caught!

[MartinVegartin]

It's too bad that america doesn't give you the option to have a say on the matter. I was in contact with a woman from australia who actively fought to abolish animals as property and went on frequent animal rescues, the thing is that it's pretty much legal there as long as you don't cause property damage. Is there a large majority of those who fight for animal liberation where you live?

 

There is not as much activity now in the UK after so many people have been arrested - sometimes on false charges - under the anti-terrorist and anti-harassment legislation. The laws are so worded that many formerly legal activities can be construed as being threatening or harassement.