A look at Epigenetic qualities. Post Yours.

[medman]

My reference to gynic and andric as potentially insulting was because of their latin roots of "gyne" meaning feminine, and "andro" meaning masculine.

 

And I stand by my list of epigenetic traits. Calling it a "genetic quality" doesn't make any distinction. If it's being expressed, it's epigenetic. The epigenome is just the portion of the genome that is transcriptionally active, i.e. the DNA is unmethylated and its histones are acetylated. That was my point. But, I'm getting the sense from your post that your genetics background isn't very formal so I'll just stop here because I don't want to start sounding like a dick, though it might already be too late for that.

[Ducati]

Ducati,

 

Choosing an overly-simplified cartoon to show the common classifications is NOT what this discussion was about - doing a pick-and-choose to find what *you* personally WANT to be offended by has little to do with the classifications and their purpose.

 

Epi-Gen made a very good point with this one statement: "Have you considered how many people reading this did not think the terms endomorph or ectomorph where offensive until you said they were?"

 

Think about that for a moment. Think about it in context to a great deal of today's world and how we've come to seem to WANT to find a reason to be offended by everything that we don't want to agree with. Then, take a moment to think about how useless it is to try and turn something innocent into a battle that needs to be waged on a simple term that is non-offensive until someone decides they feel compelled to make it offensive. And then, maybe we'll finally get back to understanding that seeking reasons to be upset (and creating scenarios deemed "offensive" when one is not clearly visible to showcase) is counter-productive to positive change.

 

Not even going to get into your other question, my vow is to not let this one get way off topic. That one's going to take it in a direction that has nothing to do with the original sentiment, and comparing what you were born as to what you choose to do for income is pretty silly.

 

I would be happy to know that more people might now consider it offensive because I mentioned it. That is because it IS offensive, derogatory, and degrading, and it might cause someone to think twice before using these terms to describe another person.

 

That cartoon is exactly what this discussion is about. That is how those classifications are portrayed.

[Im Your Man]

I kind of agree with Ducati, some people might be offensed by those classifications, and might even become depressed and commit suicide, especially the Endomorph, or Kapha, which depression is a major symptom of imbalance or, if we prefer not to classify at all: the big people, slow, inactive... but this also is a classification, and a generalization, because not all of them are inactive, some of them are way more active than other body/mind types, and no one fit in just one category, everyone has some elements of their body/personality that belongs to other categories

. BUT, is it ok to hang yourself just because of a cartoon ? I don't think so. People are looking for happiness or misery outside themselves, in society, products, or the reflection of their ego they put into each individual they come across, instead of looking inside. The seed of happiness is there within each of us and is just waiting to grow. When you feel ashamed or embarrassed in front of one person, you feel ashamed, when it happens in front of 10 persons, you feel 10 times more ashamed because you put yourself into each of these individual. There can be many other ways to feel when facing similar situation, but one's gotta developp mindfulness of the different dimensions within and outside. When someone insults you, even a stranger, you take it personal, as if this person knew who you really are. Don't take anything personal. One's gotta learn how to remain impenetrable, impervious, inaccessible, waterproof like an umbrella to those attacks. When someone comes to you with a present of joy, compliments you or just smiles at you, you may accept it, follow example of Buddha: someone comes to him full of anger, he wants to insult him, accuse him to be an ennemy of his religion, he wants to kill him, etc... why would you accept this present ? You don't want it, you close the door. Buddha says to this person: wait a minute young man, I don't want your present, your anger, keep it with you and leave.

Endomorph have qualities in the physique, like big muscles, but let's not forget the other things, which are better described with Kapha (indian version of endo) they are very down-to-earth persons, they live well in society, can easily speak to people and people will usually trust them. Kaphas can stay calm, nothing seem to bother them or it takes more to upset them, their voice generates calm and kindness.

[Ducati]

I'm Your Man,

 

I agree that happiness and confidence come from within, but in this society, one is taught to be ashamed of their body type unless it fits a certain category. This is especially true of young women. You occasionally see overweight men in leading roles in movies and tv, but rarely overweight women. If one was purely intrinsic, this would be a non-issue with them. However, most people are very extrinsic. They seek outward derived approval, religion, status, etc.

 

That is one of the keys to helping someone lose weight. If you improve their self-confidence and move their mindset from the extrinsic to the intrinsic, they will convince themselves that they are capable of helping themselves. There is no need to classify them as anything extrinsically based. Why do they need to be classified as big, overweight, endomorph, etc? Why not just teach them that they can be happy, and self-improvement originates from within? That is the basis of Buddha's teachings, is it not? Enlightenment is purely intrinsic.

 

I think it is great that so many people on this board are not personally offended by these classifications and it shows they have great self-confidence, but it is also disheartening when so many people don't see that these classifications can add to an already negative image another person might have of him or herself.

[Epi-Gen]

I can be a pretty tolerant person but... Ducati you have hi-jacked my thread. You have done it by speaking for ectomorphs and endmorphs. Now you are speaking for women as well.

 

If I was an endomorph I would be very offended that you find things that could describe me as degrading. Considering small amount of muscle that might leave me in the ecto-mesomorph range I got to say stop talking for me. I highly appreciate being skinny after growing up overweight. I could not care less if I never bulk up even if I want to be fit. If you have a problem with people having low self esteem stop empowering the words that are offensive through empowerment. Have you ever considered how long certain issues are prolonged by the activism against them through people not subject to the issues?

 

Not everyone is a Buddhist or a child. People have to want to see things in themselves. Pushing your ideas down their throat like they do not know what is best for them I doubt is the answer.

 

Being an endomorph does not mean you are big or overweight. It means you have more endodermic tissue, and MAY be prone to gaining weight and having trouble losing it COMPARED to others.

 

You brought the problems to this thread and I do not appreciate it or your demeanor. This is my last post because I want nothing to do with such an aggressive forum.

[Ducati]

I can be a pretty tolerant person but... Ducati you have hi-jacked my thread. You have done it by speaking for ectomorphs and endmorphs. Now you are speaking for women as well.

 

If I was an endomorph I would be very offended that you find things that could describe me as degrading. Considering small amount of muscle that might leave me in the ecto-mesomorph range I got to say stop talking for me. I highly appreciate being skinny after growing up overweight. I could not care less if I never bulk up even if I want to be fit. If you have a problem with people having low self esteem stop empowering the words that are offensive through empowerment. Have you ever considered how long certain issues are prolonged by the activism against them through people not subject to the issues?

 

Not everyone is a Buddhist or a child. People have to want to see things in themselves. Pushing your ideas down their throat like they do not know what is best for them I doubt is the answer.

 

Being an endomorph does not mean you are big or overweight. It means you have more endodermic tissue, and MAY be prone to gaining weight and having trouble losing it COMPARED to others.

 

You brought the problems to this thread and I do not appreciate it or your demeanor. This is my last post because I want nothing to do with such an aggressive forum.

 

My intent was not to make you mad or get you to leave. I only wish for you to see that your classifying people into categories with negative connotations can be harmful to that persons self-image.

 

"There is evidence that different physiques carry cultural stereotypes. For example, one study found that endomorphs are likely to be perceived as slow, sloppy, and lazy. Mesomorphs, in contrast, are typically stereotyped as popular and hardworking, whereas ectomorphs are often viewed as intelligent but fearful.[2] Stereotypes of mesomorphs are generally much more favorable than those of endomorphs. Stereotypes of ectomorphs are somewhat mixed."

 

I am not speaking for ectomorphs, endomorphs, or women. I am speaking for people who may have a negative body imagine because of negative stereotyping and classifications in our society.

[VeganEssentials]

http://n30cramanc3r.ohdemit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/facepalm.jpg

 

Threads around here are sinking faster than the Titanic because they go off-topic so quickly and NEVER end up being what the original discussion was about. It's seriously making me reconsider posting to anything other than my workout log from here on out.

[pazios2002]

http://n30cramanc3r.ohdemit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/facepalm.jpg

 

Threads around here are sinking faster than the Titanic because they go off-topic so quickly and NEVER end up being what the original discussion was about. It's seriously making me reconsider posting to anything other than my workout log from here on out.

 

 

Titanic Always appreciate a Picard reference.

[Baby Hercules]

-

Edited August 6, 2010 by Baby Hercules

[xCx]

http://n30cramanc3r.ohdemit.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/facepalm.jpg

 

Threads around here are sinking faster than the Titanic because they go off-topic so quickly and NEVER end up being what the original discussion was about. It's seriously making me reconsider posting to anything other than my workout log from here on out.

 

http://pedrosmind.ostrasquenoscasamos.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/DoubleFacePalm.jpg

 

It's embarrassing really.. I've moved on, mostly due to the lack of strength/power interrest on the board, but partly due to crap like this.

[VeganEssentials]

xCx, thanks for making sure to include the double-facepalm, it was definitely necessary here. It is unfortunate that most who were interested in talking strength have moved elsewhere (not a lot of us left, but a few!), I'm always happy to talk shop but I happen to suck at the O-lifts so I'd have to be the one asking you for plenty of advice

 

There's something very disheartening here about our being told what we should be offended by, as if one person's feelings of offense and insecurity speak for the entire populace. It's a really strange phenomena going on these days where it's almost as if we're being told there's something wrong with us if we don't get mad about SOMETHING on a daily basis, no matter how honestly non-offensive the topic might actually be. I just can't bite when it comes to the "let's make someone a victim in this!" mindset, so my vow is, when people start to turn a rational discussion into their personal crusade of "I'm offended about lots of stuff and you're wrong if you aren't thinking in line with my ideals", I'm ducking and running.

 

While Ducati could have posted this image and it would have lead to zero discussion:

 

http://www.brainyweightloss.com/images/3bodytypes.gif

 

...He chose to bait by finding the most far-fetched cartoon image to show variances for one reson: it appeared to validate his reasoning, while the other common images that you'll find to show the variances in types are much more subtle. And we get baited into another discussion that's no longer relevant to the original topic. It then becomes one person's personal crusade to showcase how the rest of us need to fall in line with their viewpoints, and that we're somehow completely wrong if we don't agree. I'm beginning to understand why some threads are coming up really short on people getting involved these days, as the PC Police have decided to tell the rest of us when and why we should be upset!

 

For the record, Ducati, I don't have anything against you - you seem like a good enough guy. The funny thing is, for someone who is so opposed to religion, you have a zealotry about your viewpoints that's preachier than I remember it being like when my parents would drag me to Catholic mass on Sundays as a kid!

[Ducati]

Ryan,

 

I did not make the image I posted, I pulled it from the internet. Yes, I used it because it shows the derogatory aspect of these classifications. You are showing one that shows a more respectful version which is validating your reasoning. Everything you just said to me I could flip around onto you. I see zealotry in your viewpoints as well in telling me, or anyone else, we shouldn't find these classifications offensive by calling us PC police. Many people have serious body issues in this country and these terms can certainly perpetuate the issue.

 

I am only attempting to persuade people to see these things from another persons viewpoint. These classifications might have originally been created with the goal to help people identify the way their bodies process nutrients, but that is no longer the case. The terms have been twisted into derogatory terms. The same could be said for the terms idiot, imbecile, and moron. Would you ever refer to an adult with an IQ below 25 as an idiot?

 

If you call a teenager with a body image complex an endomorph, no matter what your intent, you will be adding to that already negative body image.

[Vegan Joe]

Truth is a torch but a tremendous one. That is why we hurry past it, shielding our eyes, indeed, in fear of getting burned.

Goethe

[VeganEssentials]

One more to tie up any loose ends

 

Ryan,

 

I did not make the image I posted, I pulled it from the internet. Yes, I used it because it shows the derogatory aspect of these classifications. You are showing one that shows a more respectful version which is validating your reasoning. Everything you just said to me I could flip around onto you.

 

You're well within your right to be offended by whatever you choose. That's certainly up to you. However, insisting from the start that the classifications are only valid now for making people feel bad about their bodies was absurd, which is why everyone chimed in as nobody else on here sees it that way. Again, it's your right, I just don't know why you'd pick this of all things to find offensive in regard to giving someone self-esteem issues when it's about the least of the evils you could find with a simple glance around. Just turn on the TV and you'll find people flat-out saying "fat is ugly", while a chart is merely a chart. Can you understand why many of us don't find it offensive, and why many here feel that those who do find it offensive are likely to be offended by just about ANYTHING, including their own bathroom scales if they don't see what they want it to read?

 

I see zealotry in your viewpoints as well in telling me, or anyone else, we shouldn't find these classifications offensive by calling us PC police. Many people have serious body issues in this country and these terms can certainly perpetuate the issue.

 

Mind you, you are the one who said in so many words that those of us who WEREN'T offended by the classifications were somehow oblivious to what you deemed as fact? What started out as a new member's post to gather data for his own purposes became an issue of self-esteem and making a simple classification system into a whole slew of things that had nothing to do with the topic. And here we are. To ask, do you find the transformation pics in the gallery here offensive? I mean, I struggle to lose fat, and I see people who have done it with relative ease. Does that mean I should be inherently offended because I can't relate? Not at all. But, that's the type of will inflicted in this thread. Which, of course, makes me rather irate once someone tries to rewrite the history of why a system of classifications was created, twisting it into a tool of evil used to shake one's self-esteem to the core.

 

 

I am only attempting to persuade people to see these things from another persons viewpoint. These classifications might have originally been created with the goal to help people identify the way their bodies process nutrients, but that is no longer the case. The terms have been twisted into derogatory terms. The same could be said for the terms idiot, imbecile, and moron. Would you ever refer to an adult with an IQ below 25 as an idiot?

 

Actually, the case still is that it's used for a classification. I have the feeling you haven't spent a lot of time on bodybuilding and fitness formus over the years, but people STILL use the knowledge of their body types to help design their diet and programs, as having that knowledge can make a great deal of difference. Why that part seems invisible to you, I don't know, but you do seem to be more the glass-half-empty sort. The day that someone shouts "You *%$@! Endomorph!" at someone, it will officially be an insult. It's like saying that by calling me a male it would mean you're insulting me - language and the true meaning is more about CONTEXT than anything else, but that seems to be lost in this thread. And, as usual, I'm not going to touch your apples-to-oranges comparisions with a 10-foot-pole, as they bear little to no relevancy on the already far off topic discussion going on.

 

 

If you call a teenager with a body image complex an endomorph, no matter what your intent, you will be adding to that already negative body image.

 

Not for everyone. Again, you're taking YOUR feeling and making it a blanket statement for all who you empathize for without even knowing how anyone else would react.

 

Coming here from a guy who has suffered negative body image issues for my entire life, even when I was a morbidly obese teenager, finding that I was classified as an endomorph didn't offend me at the least. Why would it? It simply pointed out the pros and cons of my body type and showed me that I had to work within certain bounds to get the best results. I already knew I was morbidly obese - how in the heck would finding my classification make a difference in any logical sense? I would rather have known from the start as to what will yield better results for me based on what my body is more responsive to than to spend even more time in trial-and-error limbo. Of course, you can deny science if you like, but please, don't request that the rest of us do so as well.

 

Is it better if we simply ignore giving out valid information that could be helpful because it might offend someone out there? Again, you go back to the black-and-white arguments you've used before, essentially implying that if something may be positive in many ways, it's invalidated if it might not help everyone or be universally agreed on. I just can't wrap my head around it, but again, that's your choice to think that way. But, understand, you seem to be in the complete minority in that regard, as nobody appears to be able to empathize with your statements and the rest of us see value in the classification system.

 

If you want to talk negative body image and all that comes with it, I'm glad to talk more about it. I've been there, done that, and it nearly took my life from me more than once (I'll save the juicy stuff for another time, it's too good to waste in this thread), but rather than try to find a reason to feel bad at every turn and victimize myself further, I worked and worked and WORKED to turn things around. I won't contribute to the self-victimization and perpetuation that it's better to spare everyone's feelings than speak the facts in order to save a few tears. I still say, if you think that the classification system of body types is a major issue to lead to body image issues, then obviously, you must not watch television, read magazines, or leave the house much. But again, you're well within your right to get upset about the classification system. You're also within your right to be upset that the weather isn't perfect every day. Just as I'm well within my right to say that this whole thing has made a mountain out of a molehill and succeeded only in driving a new board member away by dwelling on off-topic points. Fair enough?

[Ducati]

Ryan,

 

You always seem to resort to Ad Hominem when someone doesn't agree with you. Try arguing facts.

 

"Most endomorphs tend to be inactive and even lazy."

http://www.oaklandcolleges.net/lose-the-fat/how-can-endomorphs-lose-fat-the-endomorph-diet-and-endomorph-training

 

"Specifically, mesomorphs are typically perceived as strong, brave, adventurous, physically healthy, and good-looking. Endomorphs, on the other hand, are seen as lazy, sloppy, dirty, disorganized, ugly, and stupid; ectomorphs are perceived as quiet, worrying, lonely, afraid, sad, and weak ( Brodsky, 1954; Brylinsky & Moore, 1994; Felker, 1972; Gacsaly & Borges, 1979; Harris & Smith, 1983; Johnson & Staffieri, 1971; Lerner, 1969 a, 1969 b; Lerner & Gellert, 1969; Lerner & Korn, 1972; Lerner & Schroeder, 1971; Staffieri, 1967; Wells & Siegel, 1961).

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=95247562

 

If you don't agree with me, you can just say that and be done with it. You don't have to target me personally. If you don't find something offensive that others might, then great, don't be offended. But understand that others might be and it might show them respect to be sensitive to that.

 

People don't need to be classified to make a change. They need to be understood and respected as a unique individual.

[Vegan Joe]

Ryan,

 

You always seem to resort to Ad Hominem when someone doesn't agree with you. Try arguing facts.

 

"Most endomorphs tend to be inactive and even lazy."

http://www.oaklandcolleges.net/lose-the-fat/how-can-endomorphs-lose-fat-the-endomorph-diet-and-endomorph-training

 

"Specifically, mesomorphs are typically perceived as strong, brave, adventurous, physically healthy, and good-looking. Endomorphs, on the other hand, are seen as lazy, sloppy, dirty, disorganized, ugly, and stupid; ectomorphs are perceived as quiet, worrying, lonely, afraid, sad, and weak ( Brodsky, 1954; Brylinsky & Moore, 1994; Felker, 1972; Gacsaly & Borges, 1979; Harris & Smith, 1983; Johnson & Staffieri, 1971; Lerner, 1969 a, 1969 b; Lerner & Gellert, 1969; Lerner & Korn, 1972; Lerner & Schroeder, 1971; Staffieri, 1967; Wells & Siegel, 1961).

http://www.questia.com/googleScholar.qst?docId=95247562

 

If you don't agree with me, you can just say that and be done with it. You don't have to target me personally. If you don't find something offensive that others might, then great, don't be offended. But understand that others might be and it might show them respect to be sensitive to that.

 

People don't need to be classified to make a change. They need to be understood and respected as a unique individual.

I guess we should eliminate the adjectives: fat and skinny too!

Cause this is from the same guy who would argue for prostitution irregardless of the detriment to the women involved. See Link viewtopic.php?f=25&t=21389