cheese?

[NYVegan]

So I have been a vegan for a while now but have been thinking about letting myself eat some local cheese from "happy" cows.

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Do you guys find cheese wrong even if it comes from local cows that you know are healthy and happy?

[Northstar]

Wow this is going to be a can of worms.

IDK... your moral choices are for you to decide, what is right and wrong is up to you.

Obviously this community is going to say its wrong.

Personally I dont even have to begin to the ponder the ethics of said "happy cows" as the health aspects automatically rule it out for me.

[beforewisdom]

Milk is liquid meat as far as health goes. Some types of cheese can be even worse than meat in terms of cholesterol or saturated fat content.

[beforewisdom]

How do you know the cow is happy? Seriously, how do you know?

 

You don't know how the cow is treated all of the time when visitors are not around. Does it a natural diet of grass? Does it roam freely all of the time?

 

 

 

How do you know the cow is healthy?

 

Dairy cows have a natural lifespan of about 25 years. Most only live about 5 years in factory farms.

 

 

FWIW, the word "vegan" was coined by Donald Watson and his wife after WWII to mean a person who believes it is wrong to exploit animals........that is to use them for our selfish purposes. So, an animal could not suffer at all, yet using it would still not be "vegan". It sounds a bit abstract, but I can see the merit in this idea.

 

Many of the problems animals ( & people and the planet ) have, never would have happened if people had the "vegan philosophy" of just leaving animals alone, in their natural environment.

 

We never would have domesticated them or destroyed their environments.

 

Maybe someday the human race will stop breeding cows, let their genome return to normal and keep the cows left on some sort of preserve where they will live natural lives.

 

However, that is not likely to happen as long as many people feel that it isn't an infringement on the right of the animals to take them out of their natural environment and use them for milk or whatever.

 

Anyway, no personal offense to you, but if you decide to have your occasional cheese please call yourself a vegetarian rather than a "vegan".

[Vegan Joe]

http://www.daiyafoods.com

[Im Your Man]

Cows are not happy if we take their milk to make cheese. They just wanna live a normal peaceful life, feeding milk to their calves. Even if the cow would be happy, then it is sent to the slaughterhouse. Besides, cheese is not good for health, it is ten times worse than milk, because it is concentrated milk, a concentration of casein and other junk.

[vegimator]

Even happy cow dairy farms support the veal industry. In order to give milk, cows must be constantly kept pregnant. Half the time they give birth to males and they become veal since dairy farms have no use for them.

[beforewisdom]

Even happy cow dairy farms support the veal industry. In order to give milk, cows must be constantly kept pregnant. Half the time they give birth to males and they become veal since dairy farms have no use for them.

 

Best answer yet. Most powerful point, briefest answer.

[slodki]

i hate how even on vegan boards i still have to be inundated with non vegan shit.

[vegimator]

seriously.

[beforewisdom]

i hate how even on vegan boards i still have to be inundated with non vegan shit.

 

I don't feel the same way. Veganism isn't a religion where laws are set down in stone and blindly followed. The OP was asking an open minded question. If veganism is about reducing suffering ( according to a mistaken, but common view ) and you can find cheese produced without suffering, would there be a problem?

 

It started a discussion about many vegan things so the thread has been far from non-vegan. The real definition of veganism was brought up ( not exploiting animals ) and I got some good ideas for answers to similar future questions.

 

Not a bad deal

[Im Your Man]

If veganism is about reducing suffering ( according to a mistaken, but common view ) and you can find cheese produced without suffering, would there be a problem?

I thought the essence of veganism is to reduce suffering as much as possible or to eradicate it, and I still think it is. We cannot find cheese produced without any suffering at all, because it is impossible to know if the cow is happy or not, is suffering or not; therefore we need to let them live alone peacefully... the only interaction between humans and animals would be to go pet a cow in nature... and this would be at our own risks if we do it with a tiger or a rhino !

 

The real definition of veganism was brought up ( not exploiting animals )

It is not possible to exploit animals without causing suffering. So, the absence of exploiting and suffering are really the foundations of veganism and they are linked together... To avoid suffering is the major element, the reason why one person is vegan is to avoid causing suffering to animals, while avoiding exploitation is the way to avoid suffering.

[beforewisdom]

 

The real definition of veganism was brought up ( not exploiting animals )

It is not possible to exploit animals without causing suffering.

 

Exploit means to use for one's own selfish ends. It is quit possible to treat an animal well enough so that it does not suffer while it is being exploited. For example: A well cared for race horse that is eventually retired to pasture.

[Im Your Man]

 

The real definition of veganism was brought up ( not exploiting animals )

It is not possible to exploit animals without causing suffering.

 

Exploit means to use for one's own selfish ends. It is quit possible to treat an animal well enough so that it does not suffer while it is being exploited. For example: A well cared for race horse that is eventually retired to pasture.

I suggest you to review your conception of "suffering" also. It does not necessarily mean physical pain or even not just emotional or psychological suffering like being imprisoned or having his or her baby taken away. As soon as someone is exploited, there is suffering and the victim will act with words or something else, trying to be free and happy, otherwise he or she will continue to suffer from this situation... but when the victim is a non-human animal it is more difficult.

 

As you said yourself "How do you know the cow is happy? Seriously, how do you know?" , so I don't know why you don't agree with me. When they is no happiness there is suffering.

[BlueRose]

http://www.daiyafoods.com

 

+1

[BlueRose]

i hate how even on vegan boards i still have to be inundated with non vegan shit.

 

But this is the time to awesomely educate without being a douche!

 

I try not to be a douche when I educate people and am just matter of fact about my choices. I've actually inspired omnis to try my food, cut back on meat, try being vegan for while...and turned a few vegetarian.

[Cold Fission]

i hate how even on vegan boards i still have to be inundated with non vegan shit.

so true.

 

but internet is like that.

 

and to the original post, just order vegan cheese online if you crave it so bad.once you have it you will be good for a few months.

[BlueRose]

i hate how even on vegan boards i still have to be inundated with non vegan shit.

so true.

 

but internet is like that.

 

and to the original post, just order vegan cheese online if you crave it so bad.once you have it you will be good for a few months.

 

Daiya and Sheese are my favs. Try the garlic and herb Sheese cream cheese. I CANNOT live without it. Omfgs OM NOM NOM

[NYVegan]

i hate how even on vegan boards i still have to be inundated with non vegan shit.

 

But this is the time to awesomely educate without being a douche!

 

I try not to be a douche when I educate people and am just matter of fact about my choices. I've actually inspired omnis to try my food, cut back on meat, try being vegan for while...and turned a few vegetarian.

 

Thank you! education was exactly what I was looking for.

 

There was a reason I put the word "happy" in quotes in my original post.

 

For the record, I have been completely vegan ( including dairy free) for over a year now. I didn't think there would be anything wrong with me researching a different alternative to the lifestyle. In fact, if I never researched alternate lifestyles, I never would have discovered veganism to begin with!

 

And thank you for showing me the vegan cheese. I might have to bite the bullet and try it. I usually avoid fake dairy products for health and taste reasons. But if some of you like the taste, I'll try it!

[BlueRose]

Thank you! education was exactly what I was looking for.

 

Quite welcome. I figured that was the case as nothing in your post screamed "troll" to me, and I've got pretty good trolldar.

 

And thank you for showing me the vegan cheese. I might have to bite the bullet and try it. I usually avoid fake dairy products for health and taste reasons. But if some of you like the taste, I'll try it!

 

I swear by Daiya cheese and Sheese's garlic and herb cream cheese. Turning down dairy has been the hardest part about being vegan for me due to all of the yummy things that have dairy in them. But it's been very rewarding, and my body doesn't bitch about the milk protein anymore to boot.

[beforewisdom]

i hate how even on vegan boards i still have to be inundated with non vegan shit.

 

But this is the time to awesomely educate without being a douche!

 

++ 1;

[LiftNic]

I actually had the same thoughts of you when I first went vegan, only it was regarding eggs from my friends chickens she had in the backyard. "Happy" chickens. But actually they really are happy.

 

But then I thought about it, and ehhhh. I really wanted to be a true vegan. And then I really thought about what eggs were, and got kinda grossed out. Before I never gave it much thought!

 

So anyway, basically I just wanna say I get what you're saying! But like others have said, there is a vegan cheese out there (Daiya) that is SO good... it really helps if you have any cheese cravings.

 

Good luck!

[Im Your Man]

I actually had the same thoughts of you when I first went vegan, only it was regarding eggs from my friends chickens she had in the backyard. "Happy" chickens. But actually they really are happy.

1.How do you know for sure they are happy ?

 

2. What happens with the laying hens when they are no longer productive, are they killed ?

 

3. What do your friends do with the female chicks that are born from the eggs, but especially what they do with the male chicks ? In the industry most of the male chicks are killed in gaz chambers, put into a bag and crushed by a bulldozer, or in a blender and fed to their moms...

[LiftNic]

I actually had the same thoughts of you when I first went vegan, only it was regarding eggs from my friends chickens she had in the backyard. "Happy" chickens. But actually they really are happy.

1.How do you know for sure they are happy ?

 

2. What happens with the laying hens when they are no longer productive, are they killed ?

 

3. What do your friends do with the female chicks that are born from the eggs, but especially what they do with the male chicks ? In the industry most of the male chicks are killed in gaz chambers, put into a bag and crushed by a bulldozer, or in a blender and fed to their moms...

 

Ha! There are 4 of them and they just run around in her backyard! They are so cute, I love them. My friend rescues cats, puppies, whatever, and fosters them... She's a great person. So I'm not worried about her gasing her chickens! She will keep them until they pass away from old age or whatever. They are not in the "industry". I probably should have made that clear from the beginning.

[LiftNic]

I actually had the same thoughts of you when I first went vegan, only it was regarding eggs from my friends chickens she had in the backyard. "Happy" chickens. But actually they really are happy.

1.How do you know for sure they are happy ?

 

2. What happens with the laying hens when they are no longer productive, are they killed ?

 

3. What do your friends do with the female chicks that are born from the eggs, but especially what they do with the male chicks ? In the industry most of the male chicks are killed in gaz chambers, put into a bag and crushed by a bulldozer, or in a blender and fed to their moms...

 

Ha! There are 4 of them and they just run around in her backyard! They are so cute, I love them. My friend rescues cats, puppies, whatever, and fosters them... She's a great person. So I'm not worried about her gasing her chickens! She will keep them until they pass away from old age or whatever. They are not in the "industry". I probably should have made that clear from the beginning.

 

I just realized I shouldn't have laughed, since it's very obviously not funny. I was just taken back by the blender and gassing remarks, since there are only 4 of them and all they do is run around her backyard and eat her garden all day long.