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Thanks Vege. Tell me what you use on your salad/lettuce for "dressing"? I just can't get down a bunch of lettuce without something on it. Any suggestions?

 

Really? I enjoy eating ingredients one by one: I eat plain lettuce, then I cut pepper adn eat it, then I have tomato, etc...

So, basically, no dressing needed.

But, I know interesting dressing made from thinly blended soaked sunflowers seeds, lemon juice and dill. You can add some salt, but it is not according to 811...

I know many 811 people just blend a tomato with something like orange, mango, dates, etc and then use it as a dressing.

Are you a member of "30 bananas a day" community? Go there and you will find bunch of answers and people willing to answer your questions about 811

http://www.30bananasaday.com

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Don't know if I can keep going with this. Still really miserable, headaches, dizzy and sick feeling. Couldn't sleep. Had to get up and eat something in the middle of the night. Got up to 2000-2200 cals yesterday. About a 1000 more than I had been doing. Cut out the flax oil yesterday too. Tried to get through my leg workout this morning and could only do some of it, 5 sets each of ball squat, leg ext., leg curl, butterfly squats and deadlifts, all much lighter weights and could not do my usual lunges. No cardio either. If this goes on another day I think I am going to have to throw in the towel.

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Don't know if I can keep going with this. Still really miserable, headaches, dizzy and sick feeling. Couldn't sleep. Had to get up and eat something in the middle of the night. Got up to 2000-2200 cals yesterday. About a 1000 more than I had been doing. Cut out the flax oil yesterday too. Tried to get through my leg workout this morning and could only do some of it, 5 sets each of ball squat, leg ext., leg curl, butterfly squats and deadlifts, all much lighter weights and could not do my usual lunges. No cardio either. If this goes on another day I think I am going to have to throw in the towel.

I didn't have those symptoms on 811, although I heard everybody has it, and they say it is "detox"... How about not doing the 811 all the way at once? Maybe you could have fruity breakfast and lunch, and then have some steamed potato, carrots, parsley root, sweet potato, etc. in the evening, along with some fats? I know a natural doctor here and she actually recommends this way of eating, at least in the beginning of a raw food journey. She says, it is good that we have some cooked food in the evening to put us to sleep.

If you feel so crapy, I think you should stop. I can't give you much advice further, since I didn't have "detox" symptoms at all, when on this diet. I actually felt energized all the time and started to do sports for the first time in my life. That is when I stared to do push ups, pull ups, etc. and soon after that I was in the gym for the first time. The only thing I didn't like is that I became very thin, but I will try to do 811 again in a month or two, trying to keep my weight normal. We'll see how this will turn ut. I'll definitely post here my experience.

Don't do it if you don't feel good at all. Maybe it is not the right time. I don't know what your diet looked like before 811 (any junk food in large quantities?). Some suggest fasting before going 811... But I don't think that would do you good now, since you feel hungry and depressed. Maybe give it another try in couple of months again?

All best!

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I think I am just going to focus on whole foods right now. As Jack LaLanne said it "if man made it don't eat it". although I am going to stay away from fats. I do like that whole foods in general seem to regular appetite and keep me from binge eating. I am also going to work on eating an adequate number of calories. I think the low cals have hindered my progress and also set me up to overeat on days.

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The 80/10/10 diet gave me tremendous energy for my work outs. I was on it for like 2 months. I got up, ate 2 melons, then 15 minutes later I was on the bar doing pull ups and rotations around it for about 30 mins, then I jogged for 5 kms (about 3 miles), then I came back, showered, ate fruit (water melons, pears, grapes) and I was feeling wonderful. Then I did martial arts in the evening.

I am currently not on it because the summer is over and with it my supply of fresh fruit and vegetables (coming from our family farm). I cannot afford to regularly buy so much fruit and I have too many V6s and Italian cars (from the 90ies) in my head right now but with some luck I'll be back to the 80/10/10 diet way before the summer comes (driving a V6 of course!). However, I am trying to stay as close as possible to fruitarianism. I'm not sure if I'm going to quit the tribulus tea though (or tea in general)

So the 80/10/10 diet has worked for me:)

The sweeter the fruit, the better. Pears, melons, water melons, grapes, bananas, pomegranates (godly taste!), figs, peaches and fruit like that worked good for me combined with rich salads and some nuts. Apples are delicious and very rich in vitamins but in my experience they cannot be relied upon to satisfy hunger.

As to the dressing of the salads, you could put some lemon juice (freshly squeezed) and nuts, maybe some avocado (although I'm not sure if Dr Graham recommends avocado).

The only disadvantage is that you pee more often and that is not very compatible with a sedentary life but the consequences of a sedentary life are incompatible with good health so that is not so bad.

Congratulations for the courage to try it, Paige:) The beginning is really hard, sometimes impossible at once. Don't give up. Work on it step by step. We really were not born with stoves on our backs.

Good luck and all the best to you:)

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I am glad to hear that so many people have had good results on 811. I really want to go there but clearly it must be a slower transition. I think one of the major problems is that I just can not get down the amount of food required to sustain on this plan. I was surprised since veganism was a really easy transition for me, and going straight from being a meat eater. No transition required. I would just love the energy and strength that this program promises because I have not achieved the energy, leanness, or health that I expected from a vegan diet.

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B12 deficiency was first discovered in people eating a meat based diet.

 

B12 is also produced in our small intestine. The main problem people run into is a lack of absorption. B12 is bacterially produced and is widely abundant. When one's digestive system is healthy b12 is not an issue.

 

B12 deficiency has also been reversed by fasting. Purely consuming water and resting, people were able to regain sufficient b12 levels.

 

I have not found or been shown evidence that vegans are in inherently in danger of becoming deficient in b12. It smells like a protein myth.

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B12 deficiency was first discovered in people eating a meat based diet.

 

B12 is also produced in our small intestine. The main problem people run into is a lack of absorption. B12 is bacterially produced and is widely abundant. When one's digestive system is healthy b12 is not an issue.

 

http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/int

 

B12 deficiency has also been reversed by fasting. Purely consuming water and resting, people were able to regain sufficient b12 levels.

Please link to a scientific study demonstrating this.

 

I have not found or been shown evidence that vegans are in inherently in danger of becoming deficient in b12.

Well you can't say that anymore -

http://www.ajcn.org/content/3/5/375.full.pdf+html

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20648045

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19852900

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19748244

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17357323

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17130110

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15674451

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12460231

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11785055

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I have not found or been shown evidence that vegans are in inherently in danger of becoming deficient in b12. It smells like a protein myth.

 

Uh, might want to check with Jack Norris, who unlike the "there's no problem with a lack of B-12" people, is actually a reistered dietitian and has researched this topic for the good of the vegan community. Or, someone like Vesanto Melina MS Registered Dietitian. Or, Ginny Messina MPH, RD. Or Brenda Davis, another vegan registered dietitian who would refute this. These are people who study vegan dietary habits and health for the good of the movement for veganism - they could do well enough by NOT caring about our habits, but we should appreciate that they're trying to steer us in the right direction for our own sake, not because they're getting rich off of us.

 

I don't mean to butt into this thread any longer out of any necessity other than to debunk the junk science that goes on far too often in these parts. You can choose to supplement with B-12 or not, but if you're one who does get a deficiency, you'd better pray really hard to your diety of choice that you can "fix" some of the great ailments that come with it, which aren't pretty.

 

Just advice for those who keep saying otherwise, which is wholly irresponsible. It isn't like there's an international vegan B-12 conspiracy with Monsanto pulling the strings - just take a dose every so often, and there's ZERO worry about deficiencies. If you don't, you're taking a risk in the long run - just because you might have gone a few years without caring about it does NOT mean you'll live your whole life without putting yourself at risk. Take my advice to be concerned in the long run, or don't, that's your choice.

 

I'm over trying to be a voice of reason on this board these days. There's getting to be SO much in the way of potentially harmful information being shared as if it were the true path to optimal health, it's weighing hard on my concience to be a part of anything more than simply posting my training log here. It's just not worth the stress, but yet, I hate to think of people reading this kind of stuff and thinking that it's actually true that we don't need to worry about something like B-12. With so many impressionable new vegans that come here who can fall prey to junk science and terrible misinformation, I'm doing all I can to try and show that just because someone might say "eat nothing but 3 lbs. of pineapple a day and you'll be fine", there's no real reason to believe it to be accurate just because someone else said they eat that way.

 

Oh well, let the junk science continue. I'll be busy training hard and learning to avoid some of these discussions that are far from factual in order to keep my stress levels down. It's only making me feel bad for veganism the more the junk gets spread as being optimal, it's simply a black eye on the movement in general.

 

As a final thought, do some people not find it odd that Paige mentioned how terrible she felt trying to go 80/10/10, yet all she gets are people insisting to keep with it even if she feels worse for it? It's as if nobody seems to care that someone's health can take a downturn just because they want to see their favorite diet appear as if it were flawless, even if it's at the expense of someone like Paige who may not ever find the diet to be optimal for her. Like I said earlier, the junk science does not allow for dissent, it simply creates excuses when its flaws become apparent, and puts the blame on the end user, not the program itself. (Raw) food for thought there, people.

 

And, the only "protein myth" is that of the side who continually uses failed logic to declare protein to be harmful beyond the bare minimum. Not ONCE has anyone had science to back that claim up, but my god, do some of you cling to that failed notion like it's your only reason for existing....

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VE: Don't ever give up posting, we need to hear it all and everyone should decide for themselves what works. And, I take B-12 every day, first because my studies showed that vegans may become deficient and now because it makes me feel good. Funny how our bodies talk to us that way. And thank you for caring about my health.

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This place is a magnet for people with weird ideas.

 

This.

 

I appreciate everyone who is interested in discussing nutritional science, I've really learned a lot and I love when people post studies to back up their claims, but I could do without the whackiness of some threads.

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I know that my raw food friends are not going to be happy with me but yesterday I had some brown rice and some air popped popcorn. I slept and I feel human today. I am headed out soon to train. Although it may also be that I got in 2200 cals. Not sure. I am going to give it a shot today on 80/10/10 and make sure I get in the cals. I am going to see if that works, I just didn't do it yesterday, I was just too sick. I am going to start focusing in on how my body feels on my foods instead of what makes me loss weight. That approach has not worked for me as I never feel great.

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I am not telling people what to do. It is a personal choice. However I myself am 99% convinced this b12 thing is a myth. Do you remember how back in the mid 90ies creatine was the new wonder? Most articles never forgot to mention that vegetarians (the word vegan was not very popular back then) had no way of obtaining creatine and had to definitely take supplements. I kept asking myself how all these people produced enough ATP to even lift their arms up? It turned out that creatine was biosynthesised in the body.

B12 is produced by many bacteria. It is produced in our bodies as well. We take it from interaction with the environment. if you don't live in a sterile environment (which some people in cities do) or if you go outdoors you will get b12 from the environment.

I've been vegan for a little less than 3 years and I do sports, I don't take B12 and I have absolutely no problems with my neural system whatsoever.

I respect people's choice. It is not me who decides whether they are going to take supplements or not. If you prefer to be on the safe side, sure, take the pill, forget about the issue and focus on other more important things in your life. After all, most of us don't have laboratories at home to conduct experiments.

For those of us who think that nature can't have created us dependent on supplements (assuming that nature creates us vegans), sooner or later, the truth comes out

Anyway, the 80 10 10 diet works for me.

Btw good approach, Paige. Listen to your body.

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Felt much better yesterday, although had about 400 of my cals in cooked food. But everything was good whole fruits and veggies. So this is a process for me. One thing I have learned in the last week is that I have been starving my body for a long time, trying to eat 1200cals a day, which tells me why I have problems with binge eating. 4 days at 1200cals and then eating out of control on the 5th day. Probably why I have been holding on to this extra weight. For now my goals are good whole foods, mostly raw fruits and veggies, with some cooked foods and eating enough so I can keep my energy high and my training good. I think I am going to have to learn to get adequate nutrients first before I can do a full conversion to 80/10/10. I am really glad I did this so I could learn that. Oh, and good tips on salad dressing from this thread. Made some great stuff yesterday. I really have gotten some great feedback on this thread no matter what anyone says.

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What's frustrating to many of us is that people tend to repeat the same claims over and over again, and ignore links and scientific studies that specifically debunk those oft-repeated claims.

 

I am not telling people what to do. It is a personal choice. However I myself am 99% convinced this b12 thing is a myth.

You might not specifically be telling anyone what to do (as in "YOU--don't take B12!"), but repeating myths of B12 in public forums IS attempting to influence other people to believe as you do and reach the conclusion that they don't need B12. If you truly don't want to influence what anyone else decides regarding their own B12 supplementation, you shouldn't share your opinion (including what you present as facts rather than opinion) on it.

 

B12 is produced by many bacteria.

It is actually correct that B12 is produced by bacteria.

 

It is produced in our bodies as well.

That is true as well. However, it is produced in our intestines and it's highly unlikely we can use any of it. http://www.veganhealth.org/b12/int (already posted above)

 

We take it from interaction with the environment. if you don't live in a sterile environment (which some people in cities do) or if you go outdoors you will get b12 from the environment.

This is not true. Do you have any studies showing this?

 

I've been vegan for a little less than 3 years and I do sports, I don't take B12 and I have absolutely no problems with my neural system whatsoever.

B12 deficiency can take well over 3 years to manifest. In addition, some symptoms (e.g., elevated homocysteine) are not obvious until they cause other problems.

 

In the end, people shouldn't listen to anyone who posts their opinion on a forum. Read articles and studies by people who actually have relevant qualifications. Links to such information has been provided here. They all, oddly enough, say to supplement. I haven't seen any links to studies sayiing supplementation is not recommended.

 

Again, here's a really thourough article with links to scientific studies: http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/vitaminb12

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Since we're discussing the 80/10/10 diet, I read the B12 chapter again and I will try to summarize

what this particular book says since so many people care about B12.

According to the "80/10/10 diet" vitamin B12 can be obtained from natural plant sources.

Vitamin B12 is made by bacteria. It was not discovered until 1948. In 1942 some pharmaceutical companies

started using leftover chemical weapons from WWII as pesticides and insecticides. Plants soak up vitamin B12

(among other vitamins) from the soil where the said bacteria live. As a result of the use of chemicals, the soil has been sterilized

so the plants cannot extract the B12 from the soil.

Therefore most nutritional researches encounter no vitamin B12 in plants.

Organically grown plants cultivated in an organically composted soil can contain plenty of vitamin B12.

We can also obtain it from the environment:

A hundred years ago people did not wash their food so much and some of the soil which clung to carrots, lettuce,

celery and such got eaten and it often contained B12. B12 can also be contained in the dirt which

accumulates around the stem of apples, pears, peaches, apricots, etc.

(That is what I meant about getting it from the environment. For example, I wash my fruit in the city

but when I'm on my granny's farm, I would just wipe the dirt off and eat it. Some friends of mine and

I went to the mountains on bikes this Saturday and I bought some apples from a local shop in a village -

an "industrial shop", and I just wiped them and ate them. There's some chance that I got B12 from

the area around the stem. Still, it wasn't an organic shop so who knows )

So yes, now that you made me read this again, I know more about B12:)

Moral of the story: stick to organic farming, to produce from organic soils and you'll have no B12 deficiency!

This would also explain how vegans did not die enmass from B12 deficiency before its discovery in 1948.

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Rereading an book about dietary urban folklore will only further drill in wrong information.

 

Why don't you get a copy of "Becoming Vegan" if you want to read a nutrition book? The authors are RDs who helped write the "American Dietetic Association's Position Paper On Vegetarianism". Brenda Davis RD, is also enthusiastic about raw foods and cowrote "Becoming Raw"

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Why don't you get a copy of "Becoming Vegan" if you want to read a nutrition book? Raw"

 

As Erich Fromm wrote, the question is "why", not "why not". I've made the vegetarian-vegan transition relatively easy. The carnivore-vegetarian transition was even easier. The raw transition is a bit harder because all changes of eating habits require a lifestyle change and I eat mostly home grown food and currently I don't have the money to buy all the food I eat and we can't grow fruit on our farm at this time of the year. And I'm getting a V6 at all costs:) Apart from that I know exactly how to convert to raw food. I tried it this summer and it worked. Of course, I might read the books you recommended out of curiosity and out of reading passion if I happen to have time for it. Thanx for the tip! As to my post above, I do not think "The 80/10/10" diet qualifies as an urban myth, especially the arguments I've laid out. They can be easily checked.

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This web site needs to have a warning label on it.

 

I fully agree. The fact that you can quote proven facts and scientific study via actual data and have it "discredited" by someone who claims they wish they could conduct the experiments they'd like in order to be able to prove everyone wrong who disagrees says a lot about the direction things have been heading.

 

2097, wisdom is not gained by avoiding proven facts and actual knowledge while coming up with unfounded hypotheses that have yet to hold any water for validity. Simply because you believe something to be true and something else to be false does not mean you are correct, and in relation to ignoring facts to reach such conclusions, it only shows a sincere lack of wisdom. Just wanted to share that with you, since it may have escaped you until this point

 

Like I've said before, if you want to do your own diet variations, more power to you. But trying to convince everyone your way is optimal while slamming those who disagree without any evidence to prove your points is not only silly, but irresponsible. And certainly not wise.

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VeganEssentials, all you said can be applied to your opinion as well. The fact that some studies support something does not mean that it is an established fact. The Earth was flat before the 16th century and that was a fact you could not argue with. You cannot tolerate a high carb diet and no matter how convinced I am in its virtues I will not try to tell you that your body is wrong or that the way you take carbs is wrong. Maybe it simply doesn't work with you. I've read studies that soy is good and that soy is bad. Which ones are true? All scientific research is dependent on the circumstances under which it was conducted. Therefore most research on pubmed.org says 'Mice show such reactions when treated with XXX in YYY conditions". Science does not jump to generalized conclusions. Popular science does. So just lay out your facts and the people will draw conclusions from them.

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@VeganEssentials

 

Again, wisdom is not the same thing as knowledge.

 

I don't think you or Duncan Idaho have a clue about either.

 

I'm guessing that both of you guys are at most in your early 20s,have not completed your educations yet and have not finished growing up on an intellectual level yet. In other words, I think you guys will grow out of it.

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