beforewisdom Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 This is not all that new. Vegans, as a group, tend not follow the advice to get vitamin b-12, tend not to get adequate omega 3 fatty acids, and tend not to get enough folic acid ( aka eating green leafy vegetables other than lettuce ). These nutrients are responsible from keeping the arteries from getting injured, which makes them sticky, which lets cholesterol plaque build up on them. You may have seen the recent headlines that vegans may have an increased risk of heart disease: Vegan diet may present heart disease risk It starts off saying, “Strict vegetarians, known as vegans, may be at an increased risk of developing conditions that can lead to heart attacks and strokes, according to a new study.” The “study” referred to is this paper: Li D. Chemistry behind Vegetarianism. J Agric Food Chem. 2011 Feb 9;59(3):777-84. It is not actually a study, but a review paper citing studies that are already well know. There’s basically nothing new here other than to say that vegetarians need to make sure they get enough B12 and omega-3. The paper ends by saying, “All of the above issues may be associated with an increased thrombotic and atherosclerotic risk in vegetarians, especially vegans. However, meat eaters have a cluster of thrombotic and atherosclerotic risk factors higher [emphasis added] than those of both ovo-lacto-vegetarians and vegans.” Ginny Messina has written a more in-depth article about the paper: A healthy vegan diet reduces heart disease risk Fromhttp://jacknorrisrd.com/?p=1707 It is an hour long, but it could be the most valuable hour of your year. Dr. Michael Greger produced an excellent, easy to understand video about how the nutrients mentioned at the top of this post work to prevent heart disease and how vegans who choose not make sure they get them can get cardiovascular disease despite having vegan diets http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/88A0lWQOiGI/hqdefault.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I eat nuts, seeds, a multitude of different vegetables, and take a multi. Looks like I'm in the clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 I eat nuts, seeds, a multitude of different vegetables, and take a multi. Looks like I'm in the clear. You might not be. Many nuts and seeds have a lot of omega 6, which tends to diminish the benefits of omega 3. Many vegetables lack significant amounts of folic acid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 Dr. Michael Greger is balled, fat, has glasses and "time" runs his life instead of his energy. I don't listen to PHD idiots that can't see how B12 is easily made by bacteria that are part of the human body. It is made in a part of the intestines where it will never be absorbed. - Dr. Greger is an MD, you aren't - Dr Greger reads the nutrition journals, all of them, all year long and you don't. - Being bald is independent of lifestyle. Often, needing glasses is too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 12, 2011 Author Share Posted February 12, 2011 Are you Dr. Greger? No, I am not. I am not an idiot that copies garbage information from the internet and falsely claim I know how it is produced. I actually know. Would you care to share that with us? I think most people into fitness and nutrition have met athletic people who through an accident of fortunate circumstances look very good, but do not know the science behind how they got that way. People who like to read also occasionally meet people who are well versed in the science, but who personally do not care to apply it to look as buff as they can. To brush off what Dr. Greger has to say because he is a few pounds overweight makes you opinions ( not you ) look literally ignorant. No offense or disrespect meant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duncan_Idaho Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 When you think about B12, don't you also think about all the nutrients and aspects of out bodies that we have not yet 'discovered'? I'm sure the Indian yogas who live over 100 years don't take B12. Indeed, many of them are not strictly vegan but some are.Lol, now I sound anti-scientific And I'm not. Just I have written articles about supplements too so... I know not to trust the overestimated harms associated with not taking certain products and not to underestimate the potential benefits of taking some products.Apart from that it's a personal choice whether to take something or not. The question is like whether the Earth is round or flat. Both sides used to be convinced they were right. But if I have seen Earth from above, I cannot refrain myself from saying it is round, at least to you, my dear vegans whom I respect and love. Who knows, it might turn out to be flat. Or maybe I'm the guy saying it's flat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen_Horse Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I don't listen to PHD idiots that can't see how B12 is easily made by bacteria that are part of the human body. It turns out that, yes, 8+ years of research DOES make a PhD more educated than you in this subject, whether you like it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lobsteriffic Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I don't listen to PHD idiots that can't see how B12 is easily made by bacteria that are part of the human body. It turns out that, yes, 8+ years of research DOES make a PhD more educated than you in this subject, whether you like it or not. Ha, glad some people think this. Otherwise I'd be a bit saddened that I just wasted 9 years of my life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blessings45 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 I eat nuts, seeds, a multitude of different vegetables, and take a multi. Looks like I'm in the clear. You might not be. Many nuts and seeds have a lot of omega 6, which tends to diminish the benefits of omega 3. Many vegetables lack significant amounts of folic acid. beforewisdom, Is there a thread here or separate website you know of that outlines the best and 'worst' nuts to consume, in regards to Omega 3/6 ratios? The information I'm finding is confusing me just a bit. Can nuts then, even the 'better' nuts with more acceptable ratios, be harmful if eaten in larger amounts? Thanks,K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 (edited) When you think about B12, don't you also think about all the nutrients and aspects of out bodies that we have not yet 'discovered'? I'm not an RD nor a medical researcher so my thought is that since I don't know the subject I would ask someone who does. You might find this post on Jack Norris' blog interesting in that regard as he briefly deals with that issue in regards to a voiceferous ex-vegan who makes the same point you do http://jacknorrisrd.com/?p=1656 I'm sure the Indian yogas who live over 100 years don't take B12. Indeed, many of them are not strictly vegan but some are. Indian yogis have never been vegan. Vegan diets are only now making their way into India via the animal rights movement. Traditional Hindu vegetarian diets in the south include milk products which have b-12. Not all yogis have been or are vegetarian. Edited February 13, 2011 by beforewisdom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 I don't listen to PHD idiots that can't see how B12 is easily made by bacteria that are part of the human body. It turns out that, yes, 8+ years of research DOES make a PhD more educated than you in this subject, whether you like it or not. Only on VBBF is that a radical idea. By the way, Dr. Michael Greger holds an MD, not a PhD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Is there a thread here or separate website you know of that outlines the best and 'worst' nuts to consume, in regards to Omega 3/6 ratios? The information I'm finding is confusing me just a bit. Can nuts then, even the 'better' nuts with more acceptable ratios, be harmful if eaten in larger amounts? The best vegan source of omega 3s is ground flax seeds, either color. At this time researchers think some people need an additional DHA/EPA supplement and some do not. There are various vegan brands. 5 English walnuts a day will give you adequate omega 3 fatty acids. Some other vegan foods, including soy have some omega 3s in them, but these are the best. Vegans tend to get too much omega 6 from the oils they choose, eating backed goods, eating fried foods out and eating packaged foods.........which use oils high in omega 6. When cooking at home use olive oil or canola oil if you have to use oil at all. Unless you are eating large amounts of nuts and seeds ( over 2- 3 ounces ) you probably don't need to worry about your consumption of other nuts and seeds. Watch the whole Dr. Greger video, even if he does wear glasses and is bald, he still has some good things to say Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Dr. Greger talks like an idiot. Like he is trying to be funny. Those type of people always have their head up their ass; like they can't be themselves...always in that "high school" mentality. Health is a serious business just like driving a car. That is the closest thing you have had to a legitimate point in this thread. There are some smart people who also have a sense of humor and who enjoy being funny. The trouble is that many people are superficial and will not look past the surface, but will make conclusions both about a person as well as what they are saying based on mannerisms. Back when Dr. Greger made those videos he was working for no one and was free to indulge himself. Now that he works for the HSUS he has toned down a lot. An ignorant person is a person that does not know something and claims they know. What I say is far from ignorant. Stomach fat can only be gained by eating refined sugars. He gives people advice while popping down cookies...really? What a hypocrite! I agree with your quoted statement in bold. I think you should review it and I would like to add that ignorant people don't know that they don't know. BTW, how do you know that he eats cookies or refined sugar? Have you met the man and spent time with him? I also seem to remember that you were banned from veganfitness.net for frequently posting scatological humor. Some people consider that idiotic. By your own reasoning that would mean you shouldn't be taken seriously either. People do waste 10 years in school. They may not see it right away but eventually they will see that they dropped 150+ grand on education that could of easily been self-taught at the public library! How do you figure that? University libraries have more books than public libraries generally do. Right off the bat someone who goes to college has access to more information. In addition, someone who goes to college gets pointed towards text books that don't exist either in university or public libraries.University students also have their studies guided by professors who have spent decades studying a subject. When you go to a public library, an uneducated person is left to chance in regards to picking up a book with out of date, incomplete or wrong information versus picking up a book with quality information. I seem to remember you mentioning a few years ago that you were a teenager living at home. I highly encourage you to go to college if you can. It will have many long lasting benefits for you. While there take science classes, but also squeeze in some philosophy of science classes, particularly epistemology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeganEssentials Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Oh, Beforewisdom, I feel for you. Did you happen to miss all that fun 80/10/10, "protein myth" and b-12 talk that just went on recently in the bodybuilding section? Some people live in a false reality where anything that challenges their concept of fact is a threat, and they won't hear anything else. I've come to realize this board has more such people than I ever knew, and the logical ones are now in the minority. Though, having reasonable science-based conversations were fun while they lasted, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blessings45 Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 Is there a thread here or separate website you know of that outlines the best and 'worst' nuts to consume, in regards to Omega 3/6 ratios? The information I'm finding is confusing me just a bit. Can nuts then, even the 'better' nuts with more acceptable ratios, be harmful if eaten in larger amounts? The best vegan source of omega 3s is ground flax seeds, either color. At this time researchers think some people need an additional DHA/EPA supplement and some do not. There are various vegan brands. 5 English walnuts a day will give you adequate omega 3 fatty acids. Some other vegan foods, including soy have some omega 3s in them, but these are the best. Vegans tend to get too much omega 6 from the oils they choose, eating backed goods, eating fried foods out and eating packaged foods.........which use oils high in omega 6. When cooking at home use olive oil or canola oil if you have to use oil at all. Unless you are eating large amounts of nuts and seeds ( over 2- 3 ounces ) you probably don't need to worry about your consumption of other nuts and seeds. Watch the whole Dr. Greger video, even if he does wear glasses and is bald, he still has some good things to say Thank you. I do have problems trusting the near-sighted, but I managed to find the videos very informative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 I do have problems trusting the near-sighted, but I managed to find the videos very informative. I'm unsure about the being bald thing, but I know I don't trust people with beards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen_Horse Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 ....having reasonable science-based conversations were fun while they lasted, eh?I would love that as well, but whatever would we discuss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeganEssentials Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 We could discuss beforewisdom's lack of trust for those with beards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goob Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 How can anyone say Dr Greger is overweight? He isn't fit but he is nowhere near overweight. He is probably right around his "ideal weight" with a body fat percentage of a non-athletic person. He isn't an athlete, he's a doctor, so he should look like a doctor not an athlete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fallen_Horse Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 He could be overweight, it's hard to tell. But how it's not important how much someone weighs. Many people know what to eat to be slim, but they don't have the desire or willpower to do it. It doesn't mean you don't listen to what they have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 14, 2011 Author Share Posted February 14, 2011 Dr. Greger. When a person tries to "act" like something that they're not; its annoying! Be yourself! even if you gotta tell someone to eff off. Dr. Greger was being himself in that video, a man with a sense of humor who likes to make lectures about nutrition fun. I didn't feel threatened at all. I simple didn't state my complete theory and thats why it didn't make sense to "outside" viewers. Your theory? Who are you "2097"? A few posts up you stated that you thought a person could get the same education going to a public library as someone who attended a university and PhD program. We know what Dr. Greger's name is. We know he has an MD. We know what colleges he attended. Having been to his lectures and having his DVDs I even know what journal articles he is read. Would it be unfair to expect something similar from you? Your real name? Your education? Your experience in the field of nutrition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeganEssentials Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 Thats not a sense of humor in his videos. Thats trying to be something that he is not. Natural humor is funny. Fake humor is lame. Perhaps that's just his style of humor - not everyone has the same style or sense of humor, and if Dr. Greger wants to put a few lame jokes into something, that's his decision. Whether or not you find his style of humor funny or not doesn't have any bearing on the overall message he's trying to get across. I am the guy that intercorrelate's the tests that have been done by people with an education because people with an education only study "single" fields and don't notice how everything intercorrelate's with everything. Diet with habits. As in how Dr. Greger promotes a vegan diet as a means to try and avoid preventable illness and disease by intercorrelating good dietary habits with good health? Seems to me he's doing exactly what you said, just that you have some sort of grudge against him because of his jokes and appearance, which means nothing overall. It's like those people that walk with their shoes in the house; isn't it better to take off your shoes instead of dirtying the house which makes the person clean it up later. Prevent instead of cause and then cure. Again, you may want to actually do more research into who Dr. Greger is and how he promotes the vegan diet. He isn't just saying "Go vegan once your body is screwed up and needs fixing", he does advocate a vegan diet as a preventative measure as well. I think you're making a lot of assumptions based on things that have nothing to do with his message, which is quite confusing to me. Who cares what someone looks like or what kind of humor they try to interject when it's about the overall message of veganism for health, not how beautifully it is showcased in a perfect presentation? Hell, my hair is a mess right now, but that doesn't mean I can't perform my job correctly.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeganEssentials Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 But, again, how do you know that's not how he normally is? I've met Dr. Greger before on a few occasions, and he can be a pretty goofy guy who does tend to joke around and he isn't always serious. Maybe someone will find his approach to be interesting to them while they might find a dry approach that's purely fire-and-brimstone "go vegan or get sick and die" a turn-off. Not everything needs to be done in alarmist fashion without a hint of entertainment. You're only viewing it from your own point of irritation by assuming that Dr. Greger is merely putting on an act, when I think you'd be seeing that he's not that different when you meet him. And, once more, what does any of it have to do with getting the message out for going vegan for health reasons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Thats not a sense of humor in his videos. Thats trying to be something that he is not. Natural humor is funny. Fake humor is lame. Aren't you being a hypocrite ? When you started posting to veganfitness.net you kept making poo jokes until you got kicked off the forum. How is your bathroom humor any more "being yourself" than Dr. Greger changing the modulation of his voice and gesturing a lot? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beforewisdom Posted February 15, 2011 Author Share Posted February 15, 2011 Hell, my hair is a mess right now, but that doesn't mean I can't perform my job correctly.... Actually, you filled an order for me last week after stepping out of the shower and it went to an address in Asia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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