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the cartoons about islam / muhammad


Richard
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Has everyone heard about this? Cartoons were published which have upset some people who are islamic, and there have been riots etc because countries are not complying in removing the cartoons. I wondered what people think about it, and more specifically, if there are any people who are islamic, if they could explain why there is such a violent reaction, not that they themselves have given a violent reaction, as we know that it is a small percentage of people who have become violent over the situation. I have seen about 9 or so of the cartoons, and wonder why the reaction can't be:

A) Laugh at the comics

B) Not find the comics funny

C) Think the comics are stupid

 

rather than

 

D) Start attacking people, blowing stuff up and threatening kidnap

 

As I am sure other people are saying to each other, if any of my strong beliefs were made fun of in a cartoon, I would choose A,B or C, certainly not D, no matter what was said in a cartoon. With regards to the cartoons I have seen about muhammad, I think they're lame and unfunny, but not worthy of war or riots.

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Cultural guidelines prohibit the depiction of muhamed or allah.

 

As I understand it one of the cartoons in question portrayed muhamed as a terrorist.

 

I'm not sure that these riots are particularly greater in size/number than riots regarding a variety of other things.

 

Sometimes there's a straw that breaks a camel's back. The straw is just a straw, but the camel has had enough.

 

Theres some more discussion here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2092978

As well as a link to an nytimes article about the gulf between "Westerners" and "Islam"

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Cultural guidelines prohibit the depiction of muhamed or allah.

...

Sometimes there's a straw that breaks a camel's back. The straw is just a straw, but the camel has had enough.

 

Yeah, it's the cultural guidelines themselves that I don't understand. What is the outcome of somebody doing these cartoons; what has actually happened physically or 'spiritually'? If I punch someone in the face, the clear outcome is that I damaged them physically, caused pain physically. The cartoon, what's the outcome?

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Cultural guidelines prohibit the depiction of muhamed or allah.

...

Sometimes there's a straw that breaks a camel's back. The straw is just a straw, but the camel has had enough.

 

Yeah, it's the cultural guidelines themselves that I don't understand. What is the outcome of somebody doing these cartoons; what has actually happened physically or 'spiritually'? If I punch someone in the face, the clear outcome is that I damaged them physically, caused pain physically. The cartoon, what's the outcome?

 

I think the civillian death toll in Iraq was up to 100,000? The West and probably the US specifically has empowered multiple non-democratic entities - some of the most profoundy repressesive governments esp. Iran and the Sauds. (In Iran I think we've gone after multiple democratically elected leaders for being too socialist). I suspect the burgeoning anger is the fallout of 200 years of geopolitics/colonialism, 50 years of cold/war posturing, and 20 years of continued hegemony despite the fall of the Communism. But I think that addresses the camel issue more than the issue of representations of the prophet mohammed.

 

The guidelines against depiction of mohammed/worship of mohammed are because he is but a man - the prophet of Allah(God). Similarly people and animals are not to be depicted (taditionally) to prevent the creation of idols that might be worshipped in place of Allah.

 

http://www.colostate.edu/Orgs/MSA/find_more/islart.html Is one I've sued in a class before. It might help clarify a bit on the art piece.

 

Perhaps it's best to express the issue as one of cultural sensitivity. Where people who have little in the way of actual power have been continuously pressed downward, they've more or less developed a life along those lines - but now they've been poked at somewhere new, somewhere sensitive, in a place that may really be one of their only remaining sources of pride/identity (religion) since their governments aren't theirs? I don't know that I've got the answers.

 

I think it's widespread because of globalization, as we've seen the globalization of the anti-WTO movement we'll probably see the same with other popular movements.

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i hear you that these comics shouldn't induce killing, but i agree with Aaron.

 

newspapers in the U.S. sensor stuff all the time, b/c of cultural sensitivity, political reasons, etc.

 

seeing these in a newspaper gives them validity that fosters acceptance of intolerance/hatred, repression, etc. imho

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newspapers in the U.S. sensor stuff all the time, b/c of cultural sensitivity, political reasons, etc.

 

Yeah, but I don't think that's a good idea either, I think most censorship of a political / religious nature isn't good. I mainly only understand censorship regarding what is 'suitable' for children etc

 

EDIT: and censorship of stuff which is actual instructions to do harm, attack people, make bombs etc

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You have to draw a (fine) line somewhere. Richard, I agree with your last post to a point,but there are peoples in the world who just don't think like we do and they don't want to.

This is one reason they laugh when some countries (and simpleton leaders) make statements like, "They are just jealous of us!" "They wish they had our lifestyles/freedoms." Truth is they don't want them; and they want us the hell out of theirs.

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I didn't mean to imply cartoons were interference. I was attempting to explain that what is okay/right/logical to you is not to all peoples.

 

Yeah, I realise that which is the point of the thread, so I can try to understand why they think it's okay/right/logical to do what they're doing.

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Right now, I'm thinking a lot of the protest is a lot of people fed up, etc., like Aaron pointed out.

But the violent people are extremists just fueling the fires to further their agenda. These violent people are not following true Islam anyway; they are following a distortion of it to influence the young and seduce those who are desperate and tired.

 

I understand the Danish publications desires to express free speech, but we are in a time when things are so volatile that it is irresponsible to publish such things which can ignite this type of violence. I think the higher responsibility *at the moment* is to not agree that these publications are "wrong" but to agree to not publish them at this time. I think it's more important to build bridges by working toward our similarities and common goals instead of insulting eachother. As much as I hate it, we have to sacrifice sometimes because the collective good (safety in this case) supersedes the individual right (the publication).

Now when would be an okay time TO publish these things?? I don't know, but I'm sure the answer lies somewhere in education.

 

Am I rambling?

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newspapers in the U.S. sensor stuff all the time, b/c of cultural sensitivity, political reasons, etc.

 

Yeah, but I don't think that's a good idea either, I think most censorship of a political / religious nature isn't good. I mainly only understand censorship regarding what is 'suitable' for children etc

i agree and know that many don't print stuff that is against their agenda. liberal papers don't print much that is conservative and vice versa. but, i also feel that if a newspaper prints it, they're somewhat endorsing it. perhaps they should have printed the cartoons with a disclaimer.

 

EDIT: and censorship of stuff which is actual instructions to do harm, attack people, make bombs etc

i'm not an advocate for censorship, but what about endorsements of hatred which leads to violence?

 

like _raVen_ said, i think you've got to draw a fine line. where we draw it will likely differ.

 

i think the big issue here is the reality of the situation that Aaron discussed.

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I think this was a pure act of arrogance and has nothing to do with free speech. These european nations want trouble and thats it. I have heard that in response to these comics Iran is having a contest at depicting the holocaust in a comic sense. I wonder if anyone will be offended by this Anyhow consult the article below, I agree with them. If anyone else is wondering about war with Iran then lets talk about it.

 

http://www.lewrockwell.com/buchanan/buchanan36.html

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/february2006/070206attackiran.htm

 

this came from the second link..."Commenting on the Muslim riots sweeping the Middle East and Europe, Zhirinovsky said that the publication of the offensive cartoons was a planned psyop on the part of the US and aimed to “provoke a row between Europe and the Islamic world”.

 

 

Maybe check these related articles...different views: http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0208-20.htm

http://www.lewrockwell.com/hadar/hadar45.html

Edited by CollegeB
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That could be true, collegeB; good point. But we still have to deal with it in terms of the law. So the assertion of free speech, democracy, blah, blah is understandable, setting aside motives.

It's not hard to believe there are agendas on all sides...at least it shouldn't be; it should be expected, unfortunately.

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Have you guys actually seen the pictures? I've said far worse of Christianity here on this forum than these cartoons say of Islam. And as a matter of fact, as bad as Christianty is, Islam is far worse. Look what they do to women. They even cut their clitorises off. Their treatment of women is intolerance that requires intolerance in return.

 

The idea that people in Denmark are expected to obey Muslim law and not express their opinion on Islam is just as abhorent as the idea that I could go to jail for daring to express my opinion of christianity.

 

And in case you guys didn't know, some of the Imans are lying to their followers by telling them certain pictures were published that were not actually published. For some reason they're trying to get muslims as angry as possible.

 

I'm really surprised at the opinions expressed here. You might as well be disapproving of Bizarro's pro vegan cartoons. (Actually though his are far, far, far more insulting than the Danish cartoons so it's not really a good comparison. )

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My prob is that by removing the cartoons, it would be reacting to violence. IE we are saying that so long as people are violent and hostile, we will do as they say, which isn't right. The cartoons are just silly and childish. From posts so far, I understand that really the cartoons don't really matter that much and it's much more serious and ongoing problems that are the real problem... in which case the cartoons aren't a big deal anyway, in which case, it is illogical for it to be required that the cartoons be banned in other countries, and it's the other problems that the riots are about...?

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Have you guys actually seen the pictures? I've said far worse of Christianity here on this forum than these cartoons say of Islam. And as a matter of fact, as bad as Christianty is, Islam is far worse. Look what they do to women. They even cut their clitorises off. Their treatment of women is intolerance that requires intolerance in return.

 

I agree with your point that there are cartoons that could be explained as worse.. your second point is not so strong.. the cut of the clitoris is not commen under muslims.. it's only done in some countries.. it's not populair under middleleastern muslims.. more under somalian.. not in the places where the riots are

 

other point is that most people they interviewd did not see the cartoon in the first place.. because you are not allowed to make a drawing or other immage from mohamed.. most riots have been set up by people who like to create destabilization.. more than 10 people died because of the riots..

 

other problem is that in most countries the press are part off the state.. so for some people it might be dificult to see the diference between a news paper and a coment from denmark as a country.. in the protest also flags from swiss (also red with with cross), other nations/ regions and lots off other objects/ people are under attack.. this means that the conection to the cartoon is already gone.. it's more than this..

 

about the cartoons.. i think they made them becaause of there view on muslims.. it's a bit easy and stupit to make something like that..

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I think the cartoons, even if offensive, were used as an excuse to incite people in certain countries against the west. Not surprisingly the worst acts of violence were in Lebanon (most of the people arrested there were from Syria) and Iran.

But even if according to muslims these cartoons should never have been published, is burning buildings & flags the right way to protest? I've seen pictures of children in schools burning the danish flag, what sort of "education" is that? In my view, there's nothing worst that burning a country's flag. I've also seen footage of people burning the Swiss flag..did they confuse it with the Danish one?

 

People should understand that a democratic country is not responsible for what a newspaper publish, that's what a democracy is all about.

And what about the London protest? People dressed up as suicide bombers and holding placards inciting violence? Even if in rage, is that the right way to protest?

 

I sympathize with whom was offended by these cartoons, but would christians or jews go banana if it'd happen to them?

 

We all have the right to express our views, how can we allow religion if we eliminate the right of satire it? Historically, each major religion criticise others, so what's wrong with some cartoons?

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And what about the London protest? People dressed up as suicide bombers and holding placards inciting violence? Even if in rage, is that the right way to protest?

 

The banners at the London protest were a disgrace. It says it all that those holding banners inciting terrorism/murder were not arreseted, but a couple of people ( an Irishman and a German I believe ) were arrested for trying to hand out copies of the cartoons at the protest. Whilst they were undoubtedly trying to stir up trouble, I view their actions as far less serious than encouraging terrorism......

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I sympathize with whom was offended by these cartoons, but would christians or jews go banana if it'd happen to them?

 

The hypocrisy of some muslims and muslim newspapers is quite breathtaking as for years some muslim newspapers have been publishing vile anti-semitic cartoons. Seems some muslims are quite happy to dish out racist/religious insults, but can't take it when it is turned back on them....

 

I understand the cultural sensitivities regarding the depiction of Mohammed. Most muslims are decent, law abiding people. I reget the offence they have suffered as a result of the cartoons. However, if some ( extremist ) muslims want to make such a song and dance about it, they in turn should also start to appreciate the cultural sensitivities of other religions.

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I understand the cultural sensitivities regarding the depiction of Mohammed. Most muslims are decent, law abiding people. I reget the offence they have suffered as a result of the cartoons. However, if some ( extremist ) muslims want to make such a song and dance about it, they in turn should also start to appreciate the cultural sensitivities of other religions.

 

i agree

 

in the netherlands the arabic european liga also put anti semitic cartoons on there website .. with some text if you accapt that you accept this.. a weird reaction.. if you don't like these cartoons why do it yourself???

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Have you guys actually seen the pictures? I've said far worse of Christianity here on this forum than these cartoons say of Islam. And as a matter of fact, as bad as Christianty is, Islam is far worse. Look what they do to women. They even cut their clitorises off. Their treatment of women is intolerance that requires intolerance in return.

 

I agree with your point that there are cartoons that could be explained as worse.. your second point is not so strong.. the cut of the clitoris is not commen under muslims.. it's only done in some countries.. it's not populair under middleleastern muslims.. more under somalian.. not in the places where the riots are

I'm well aware that FGM isn't universal. The point was they mistreat women. Their treatment of women should be considered a crime against humanity and I think people most certainly should be allowed to express their opinions on this. The fact that people cause harm and then hide behind their religion as an excuse and then claim no one can dare criticize their religion really makes me angry.

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They can be an pretty big word.

Yes, "they" is a huge word. I'm not talking about a few extremists I'm talking about the laws in a number of countries. We're talking about the persecution of tens of millions of women.

 

yeah but only a few tens of millions

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