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My message to Robert


violet13
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Robert, please believe me, I much rather to focus on pleasant things than focusing on chilling brutalities inflicted on innocent defenseless animals but it is necessary for us to focus on INJUSTICE in our society to improve our corrupted society where money control almost everything and suffering of animals are completely ignored.

If everybody is focusing on only pleasant things, how can we abolish barbarities on this planet?

I am not fighting with other posters on forums.

I am just speaking up for animals.

Is it wrong?

I hope this forum is different from VF forums.

The reason why VF forum banned me is because I could not control my anger toward cold blooded barbarians who drown stray dogs in ocean for shark fishing.

Most people on that forum think we need to respect cold blooded barbarians and we should not speak against barbarians.

Of course if we can control our anger, it is best, but can we conntrol our anger always?

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Violet, I'm not Robert (could you guess! ) but I find myself NOT reading your posts because the titles seem so inflamatory and angry, like titles for articles in some shock magazine.

 

I agree that it's important to be aware of the injustices and attrocities, and take action against them, but it's hard to want to read a thread that, from the title alone, seems like it will be all angry ranting.

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Kathryn, 'My message to Robert' is inflammatory?

What are other titles you find inflammatory?

I cannot understand why some people attack me on this forum when I post my messages.

I don't get this kind of attack on other forum.

Of course if you don't want to read my message, it is perfectly ok with me because other people can read.

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Kathryn, 'My message to Robert' is inflammatory?

What are other titles you find inflammatory?

 

Again, you misunderstand. It's not the "message to Robert" that is inflamatory (nor did I say it was), but titles like "What kind of injustice is it!" (with an exclamation point) or "our best friends tortured to death," (which are not in the majority of your threads, so I may have misrepresented that, and apologize for that. These are just some more recent thread titles that popped to my attention).

 

If you read an "attack" in my post, it is your interpretation, not my intent. I believe I have been quite supportive of you and tried to be helpful in the past. I just feel that if you presented these issues with fewer exclamation points and dramatic language, they might be easier to take. I know that you are very passionate about your beliefs, so am I, but presenting those views in a less emotional way often convinces people more easily (and my goal is too convince people and help animals).

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I agree with willpeavy. I don't read violet's messages the way a lot of people seem to. I don't see them as offensive.

 

When I read violet's messages, I see them as someone venting and someone hoping for commisserative responses as opposed to a conversation. No problem, I guess. If people don't want to add their "yes, I agree" then just skip it. I don't think she's accusing anyone here or yelling at anyone here. She's being emotional -- how can one not be? If there are misunderstandings then further explanations are necessary; if you don't want to then just drop it.

 

I like violet's messages for a couple reasons: One, they are good for people new to the board or just coming across the board. If they end up reading about cruelty that's fine with me.

Two, I read them and see that her words are very passionate. Words like "barbarity" and so forth, are not exaggerations. They are truly what goes on all day, every minute, every second of every day. To be reminded of this is a good thing. I've been a vegan over 10 years and it still shocks me. It's easy to be "happy" in our vegan lives and somewhere in the back of our minds think of the animals now and then. It's easy to be content. The truth is I appreciate violet's messages because they remind me not to get so comfortable. There is immeasurable suffering among the least valued among us -- including human beings.

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Hey Violet,

 

You can e-mail me as well, as long as my inbox isn't full. But thank for posting your message/concern.

 

My problem wasn't with your posts, it was just that each one seemed to lead to members directly attacking one another and I felt it was counter productive, and not good for visitors, lurkers, first timers, etc. to read. We don't need to be fighting with each other. We have many other industries, organizations, and laws we need to spend our time fighting.

 

I agree with Will. We believe there are more effective ways to present vegansim.

 

For those who want to take 3 minutes, here is an article I wrote titled, "Presenting Veganism." It refers to speaking to a group, but it might provide some good points, suggestions, and information many of you may like to use when you talk with others:

 

 

This is an article that I specificially wrote for www.organicathlete.org to be included in their monthly newsletter, but I wanted to include it here too.

 

I hope that you will find it very helpful and it will enhance your ability to speak to others about your vegan lifestyle. -Robert Cheeke

 

Presenting Veganism by Robert Cheeke April 5, 2005

 

How many times have you been asked, “Where do you get your protein?”

Or what about, “Well, then what Do you eat?” These are common

questions that non-vegans have for us on a daily basis. They are

fairly easy to answer because anyone who knows anything about

nutrition knows that protein is one of the easiest nutrients to find

in human nutrition; and to answer the latter question, all you have to

do is tell them what you eat or more simply, tell them the foods you

avoid and that you eat everything else.

 

But what if you are preparing to give a presentation to a group of

people; do you know what kind of approach you would take and how you

would answer questions?

 

In my experience, the best way to approach any animal rights or

veganism presentation to non-vegans is to be prepared for the

questions you know will be asked and come across as a nice person just

sharing your lifestyle with them.

 

Nobody wants to hear that they are doing something wrong, so keep

everything positive. Rather than giving statistics about how meat-

eaters will die sooner than vegans, say that vegans live long healthy

lives, taking in all required nutrients to stay active and maintain

great health. Rather than talk about factory farming conditions, give

examples of animals that are treated well and that more should be

treated that way.

 

When you present yourself be sure to smile, laugh, be enthusiastic,

make great eye contact, thank people for their questions, and offer to

help them find an answer if you don’t have the answer they are looking

for. Make the group laugh, that will help them relate to you as a

human, and as a nice person, rather than the guest speaker who is

there to discount their lifestyle and condemn their eating habits.

 

When possible, avoid any kind of direct argument. Debating can be ok

depending on the setting but I wouldn’t recommend it. Give your

presentation and allow time for questions rather than a debate.

 

To help create a clear picture of who vegans are and what they do,

eat, and stand for, share part of your life with them. Talk them

through a typical day explaining what you eat. Start from morning

describing your meals up until you go to sleep that night. Bring in

examples of vegan alternatives to common foods like yogurt, milk,

meat, energy bars, cheese, treats, etc. Pass the foods around so they

can read the labels and get familiar with what is inside and so they

can see some healthy alternative foods they could be eating. Be sure

to read some highlights from the label of an example food. Such

as, “high in protein, no trans fat, no cholesterol, may reduce risk of

heart disease, etc.”

 

Come to the presentation prepared with some literature, such as Why

Vegan pamphlets or Vegan Starter Packs from Vegan Outreach. This will

give the group of people something to read while you field questions

and it could possibly create more questions based on the information

they read from the brochures or books.

 

The best thing that you can do is surprise the group you are speaking

to by not being what they expect. Most non-vegans will hear of a

vegan coming to speak at their class, group, school, function or

whatever the event may be, and immediately imagine a radical

environmentalist, angry at the government and meat and dairy

industries who will be preaching their ethical and moral values to

anyone who is not like them. This is what they expect in most cases,

so it is up to you to surprise them.

 

Come across as being just like them. Find some common ground and

perhaps even make it clear at the beginning that you are not there to

preach at them or that you are not trying to change their eating and

lifestyle habits. After hearing that, they will take a sigh of relief

and listen to what you have to say. If you open up with telling

people that eating meat is wrong, you might as well turn around and

walk out the door because you will no longer be heard by anyone in the

room and you will probably do more harm than good for the vegan

movement. Be their friend, relate to them, understand that yes,

animal products probably do taste pretty good, but explain why we may

want to consider other nice tasting foods that could be a bit

healthier and cause less environmental destruction.

 

If you come into contact with someone in the group who is aggressive

and tries to argue with you, quickly diffuse the situation by thanking

them and move on to the next question. You will be admired for your

control and the aggressive questioner, rather than you, will become

the “bad guy” in the eyes of the crowd. The group will probably have

more respect for you and they’ll be able to empathize with you since

you are the minority but handling yourself well through tough

situations.

 

My experience tells me that a non-aggressive, non-threatening,

friendly, enthusiastic approach works wonders when it comes to talking

with people on the other end of the environmental spectrum.

 

When you finish your presentation, realize that there are plenty of

other questions that the group probably has but didn’t have time or

the confidence to ask, so always leave them with some contact

information such as an e-mail address where they can contact you to

learn more about veganism.

 

Upon conclusion of your visit, always thank the group for inviting you

to share your lifestyle with them and stay around afterwards to

address individual questions that someone may not have wanted to ask

in front of a group.

 

If you take this enthusiastic, friendly, fun, gracious, non-

threatening approach you will be making the most of your potential

impact on the non-vegan community. You’ll be surprised how many

people may think really hard the next time they visit a fast food

restaurant.

 

-Robert Cheeke

www.veganbodybuilding.com

[email protected]

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There are many ways to promote veganism and work for the animals, no question about it. I think that what people often have as a problem with your posts, Violet, is that your tone often sounds accusatory to people here who are already working for the animals' sake rather than directing it at people who aren't doing anything (typically non-vegans or those who are apathetic in general regarding the cruel treatment that happens everyday). It may simply be difficulties in communication, but when people who are already involved in work for the animals feel that someone is telling them they're not doing enough it isn't anything they want to hear. Again, this is probably due to communication issues, but understand that how you interpret something isn't the same as how others will. Also, when people present thoughts and questions rather than extreme outrage it does not mean they don't agree with you (such as J discussing cultural differences making a difference in how other nations treat dogs). J was not saying it was acceptable to treat dogs poorly and eat them, he was merely stating the possibility that because dogs aren't treated as companions as often in other areas of the world they may be considered as food just as a chicken or cow normally is. Saying such a thing does not mean he believes that you are wrong or that people who mistreat dogs are correct, but he's simply posing a question to analyze why the problem exists, because when you can identify the root of it you can work more effectively against the problem. Again, this wasn't a justification for why it happens, but a way to see it from their side to analyze the problem. When you can understand the enemy better, you have an advantage and can fight back with a greater response. Simply going into a rage and accusing those of not being in a rage as well of not caring is not accomplishing anything, so please, write in a way that does not sound accusatory to those who are already working for a more compassionate world, and understand that there are many ways to approach the same end goal. We respect your right to feel outrage, and even if we do not show it the same as you, we all feel it as well.

 

I know this has been said before, but perhaps a new way of wording it can shed some additional light on this.

 

Ryan

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You ever do any public speaking Ryan? I know from meeting you that you probably knocked out that post fast, as that's just how you talk in person. You're very well spoken.

 

I can't disagree with what you wrote Robert. Maybe there's situations where a controversial approach is good, but probably not in the situation you mention.

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Thanks Ryan and thanks Jay,

 

I know not everyone is going to agree, but one thing Ryan and I both said is that people don't want to be told they are doing something wrong (even if they are, from out standpoint). Once you've told someone they are wrong, you've LOST THEM. I believe that is true in 95% of the cases. Once you accuse someone of something, directly tell them they are wrong, or in another way bad-mouth their lifestyle; there is no way you can win or have a positive influence on them. That is just the way it is, that is how our society works. In most cases, you have to have a different approach in order to have a chance at changing the way they look at things.

 

This is a quote from that little article I posted above:

 

"The best thing that you can do is surprise the group you are speaking

to by not being what they expect. Most non-vegans will hear of a

vegan coming to speak at their class, group, school, function or

whatever the event may be, and immediately imagine a radical

environmentalist, angry at the government and meat and dairy

industries who will be preaching their ethical and moral values to

anyone who is not like them. This is what they expect in most cases,

so it is up to you to surprise them."

 

I do think it is important to be something other than what people expect, or at least come across as something other than what they expect. This can be true on many levels.

 

For example, a few days ago I got an extremely rude e-mail from someone I don't know. They were making fun of me, calling me names, etc. It was from a non-vegan bodybuilder. I wrote back, thanked him for his comments and wished him luck in his competitions this year. About an hour later, he wrote back and wished me luck too.....and I know he felt bad about attacking me. He wanted to start a fight, an argument with me. But that is something I don't do. I respect what people say, thank them and leave it at that.

 

Just some things to keep in mind. I've tested different approaches to presenting veganism for 10 years. I'm sure many of you have as well. My positive approach works well and I've influenced more people than I ever could have using old techniques.

 

I was driving home today after reading this post and responding earlier when a question came into my head. Are we happy we're vegan, or outraged because we're vegan? I've been both, but now I'm just the first one. I'm happy to be doing what I'm doing; I focus on the positive, and I know that makes a huge impact on a lot of people.

 

-Robert

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I think you're totally justified to be angry and upset Violet, and I agree with what you say and share the same emotions. But those emotions and the anger themselves aren't really useful. Only logic and sensible debate are the valuable things, so there is no need to actually demonstrate the anger etc on a forum, although I completely understand it. The way you phrase things is often 'How can you not consider this??' rather than 'please consider this'. There is no value in phrasing it the first way, even if I agree with what is being said.

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Some people on this forum are keep telling me my way of posting message is not effective to influence people but nobody is showing fruits of their very effective way to reach people.

Million of people became vegan because of PETA.

PETA never hide chilling brutalities.

PETA never say to people "Oh, you shouldn't show that because it is too heartbreaking." or "you should not show gruesome pictures of tortured and killed animals because people get upset."

PETA changed the way people view farm animals but not luke warm organization that never take chance of criticism from people.

If some people on this forum feel that this forum need only happy pleasant message to entertain people, I am on wrong forum.

I have no idea why my title of "Our best friends are tortured!" is so offensive to some people.

Why is it so offensive to use the word 'barbarity' ?

Of course we have different degree of feeling anger and .

Some people do not feel anger and strongly enough when they see injustice in our society.

I can actually feel different degree of sensitivity when I read message of people.

Please don't tell me my anger do nothing to help animals because my anger is just my natural reaction by seeing chilling brutalities in our society and I am not saying my anger is helping animals.

What I'd like to see is fruits of effective way to change the idea of people when most people view farm animals as meat source and show heartless attitude toward farm animals.

Where is fruits?

If some people on this forum think their way is most effective way to change minds of peole about animals, where is fruits of their most effective way to reach people?

I am sure these people have many fruits to show.

Edited by violet13
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Some people on this forum are keep telling me my way of posting message is not effective to influence people but nobody is showing fruits of their very effective way to reach people.

Million of people became vegan because of PETA.

PETA never hide chilling brutalities.

PETA never say to people "Oh, you shouldn't show that because it is too heartbreaking." or "you should not show gruesome pictures of tortured and killed animals because people get upset."

PETA changed the way people view farm animals but not luke warm organization that never take chance of criticism from people.

If some people on this forum feel that this forum need only happy pleasant message to entertain people, I am on wrong forum.

I have no idea why my title of "Our best friends are tortured!" is so offensive to some people.

Why is it so offensive to use the word 'barbarity' ?

Of course we have different degree of feeling anger and and some people do not feel strongly enough.

I can actually feel different degree of sensitivity when I read message of people.

Please don't tell me my anger do nothing to help animals because my anger is just my natural reaction by seeing chilling brutalities in our society and I am not saying my anger is helping animals.

What I'd like to see is fruits of effective way to change the idea of people when most people view farm animals as meat source and show heartless attitude toward farm animals.

Where is fruits?

If some people on this forum think their way is most effective way to change minds of peole about animals, where is fruits of their most effective way to reach people?

I am sure these people have many fruits to show.

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the words barbaric and torture etc, and there isn't anything wrong with showing horrific imagery etc, and I don't think there's anything wrong with what you've done on the forum. I think that it's clear what other people's reaction will be though, even if there is nothing wrong with it, it's not what people want, and you know what reaction you are getting, so it's not productive, even though what you say is correct. Lots of people have posted things here to boycott, or things to contribute to, and people do it even without confrontation.

 

With logical debate and reasoning I've got two people to go from vegetarian to vegan, and I've got 2 people to go from omnivore to vegetarian, and I've got 1 person to become a stricter vegetarian than they were.

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Some people on this forum are keep telling me my way of posting message is not effective to influence people but nobody is showing fruits of their very effective way to reach people.

Million of people became vegan because of PETA.

PETA never hide chilling brutalities.

PETA never say to people "Oh, you shouldn't show that because it is too heartbreaking." or "you should not show gruesome pictures of tortured and killed animals because people get upset."

PETA changed the way people view farm animals but not luke warm organization that never take chance of criticism from people.

If some people on this forum feel that this forum need only happy pleasant message to entertain people, I am on wrong forum.

I have no idea why my title of "Our best friends are tortured!" is so offensive to some people.

Why is it so offensive to use the word 'barbarity' ?

Of course we have different degree of feeling anger and .

Some people do not feel anger and strongly when they see injustice in our society.

I can actually feel different degree of sensitivity when I read message of people.

Please don't tell me my anger do nothing to help animals because my anger is just my natural reaction by seeing chilling brutalities in our society and I am not saying my anger is helping animals.

What I'd like to see is fruits of effective way to change the idea of people when most people view farm animals as meat source and show heartless attitude toward farm animals.

Where is fruits?

If some people on this forum think their way is most effective way to change minds of peole about animals, where is fruits of their most effective way to reach people?

I am sure these people have many fruits to show.

 

I think the Vegan Outreach "be nice, provide accurate information, and lead by example" philosophy is a lot more effective than the PETA "shock and harass" philosophy. The fruits are with the VO approach you can often get somewhere around 1 out of 25 people you talk to to open up to vegetarianism. With the PETA approach you get may get some things done, but you also get a huge backlash. I'm not a PETA hater though. I think they mean well. But I think stunts that alienate a lot the population don't really help that much.

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Richard, when you defended me on vegan freak forum, didn't you get hateful message from people?

Not just people posted hateful message to you but they banned you.

Only people who never get criticism from people are luke warm people and people who are doing nothing.

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Some people on this forum are keep telling me my way of posting message is not effective to influence people but nobody is showing fruits of their very effective way to reach people.

Million of people became vegan because of PETA.

PETA never hide chilling brutalities.

PETA never say to people "Oh, you shouldn't show that because it is too heartbreaking." or "you should not show gruesome pictures of tortured and killed animals because people get upset."

PETA changed the way people view farm animals but not luke warm organization that never take chance of criticism from people.

If some people on this forum feel that this forum need only happy pleasant message to entertain people, I am on wrong forum.

I have no idea why my title of "Our best friends are tortured!" is so offensive to some people.

Why is it so offensive to use the word 'barbarity' ?

Of course we have different degree of feeling anger and .

Some people do not feel anger and strongly enough when they see injustice in our society.

I can actually feel different degree of sensitivity when I read message of people.

Please don't tell me my anger do nothing to help animals because my anger is just my natural reaction by seeing chilling brutalities in our society and I am not saying my anger is helping animals.

What I'd like to see is fruits of effective way to change the idea of people when most people view farm animals as meat source and show heartless attitude toward farm animals.

Where is fruits?

If some people on this forum think their way is most effective way to change minds of peole about animals, where is fruits of their most effective way to reach people?

I am sure these people have many fruits to show.

 

A good portion of people even in the animal rights community despise PETA and their questionable methods. Why would you willingly try to emulate that?

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Richard, when you defended me on vegan freak forum, didn't you get hateful message from people?

Not just people posted hateful message to you but they banned you.

Only people who never get criticism from people are luke warm people and people who are doing nothing.

 

Har yeah, I know you have to draw a line somewhere. Those guys on VF were totally unreasonable, I wasn't willing to change my opinions. The way I expressed my opinion was fair enough in my opinion, there wasn't much more I could have done to be reasonable, other than change what I was saying.

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Some people on this forum are keep telling me my way of posting message is not effective to influence people but nobody is showing fruits of their very effective way to reach people.

 

Where are your fruits? Why do you assume that the only way they reach people is through this forum?

 

PETA never say to people "Oh, you shouldn't show that because it is too heartbreaking." or "you should not show gruesome pictures of tortured and killed animals because people get upset."

 

PETA also sums up what they're saying intelligently and is quick to explain things rather than simply insult and slander. It's far more effective to discuss an issue than to point the finger at someone who may not know they are even doing anything wrong without explanation.

 

I have no idea why my title of "Our best friends are tortured!" is so offensive to some people. Why is it so offensive to use the word 'barbarity' ?

 

Does it matter? If someone is offended then you are not effectively reaching them. Strong language turns a lot of people away from a discussion and if you believe that these people are not important to supporting your cause then you will have fewer people signing petitions.

 

Please don't tell me my anger do nothing to help animals because my anger is just my natural reaction by seeing chilling brutalities in our society and I am not saying my anger is helping animals.

 

This is understandable, however your anger prevents you from reaching people who may otherwise listen to what you have to say.

 

Where is fruits?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Violet, there are many positive and informative things that you have to say. If you've noticed, the topics that you've asked questions in and engaged others to participate with you such as Do you think drugs are safe? and Boycott pet breeders! have the most responses.

 

It is perfectly normal to be upset and angry but it is not until we can meet someone else with rapport that they see our side and start to open up to our ideas.

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AllIveEverTouched, different people interpret my message differently.

I have no problem of posting my message on other forum and most people are very supportive but some reason I get criticism from some people on this forum.

My guess is I am dealing with different type of people on this forum.

One poster told me that she will never forget your strong statement and that is what made me vegan.

Of course some people did not enjoy my messages but least some of them said to me that they are eating much less animal products after I exposed reality of meat/dairy/egg industries.

There are two types of people on this planet.

People who put their own enjoyment over animal suffering and people who risk their own lives to save animals.

We cannot be coward if we want to promote animal rights.

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for some reason I get criticism from some people on this forum.

 

People have repeatedly told you their reasons, and in a way that is meant to be informative and helful, but you choose to see it as an attack.

 

We cannot be coward if we want to promote animal rights.

 

Case in point: suggesting that we are cowards.

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Also, when people present thoughts and questions rather than extreme outrage it does not mean they don't agree with you (such as J discussing cultural differences making a difference in how other nations treat dogs). J was not saying it was acceptable to treat dogs poorly and eat them, he was merely stating the possibility that because dogs aren't treated as companions as often in other areas of the world they may be considered as food just as a chicken or cow normally is. Saying such a thing does not mean he believes that you are wrong or that people who mistreat dogs are correct, but he's simply posing a question to analyze why the problem exists, because when you can identify the root of it you can work more effectively against the problem. Again, this wasn't a justification for why it happens, but a way to see it from their side to analyze the problem. When you can understand the enemy better, you have an advantage and can fight back with a greater response. Simply going into a rage and accusing those of not being in a rage as well of not caring is not accomplishing anything, so please, write in a way that does not sound accusatory to those who are already working for a more compassionate world, and understand that there are many ways to approach the same end goal. We respect your right to feel outrage, and even if we do not show it the same as you, we all feel it as well.

 

Ryan

 

Exactly. Perfectly explained and reasoned. DO YOU NOW UNDERSTAND VIOLET? Because if you STILL dont understand, then it is because you are CHOOSING not to understand.

 

And that I have a problem with, just like when meat eaters CHOOSE not to understand the extent of animal suffering.

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Some people on this forum are keep telling me my way of posting message is not effective to influence people but nobody is showing fruits of their very effective way to reach people.

Million of people became vegan because of PETA.

PETA never hide chilling brutalities.

PETA never say to people "Oh' date=' you shouldn't show that because it is too heartbreaking." or "you should not show gruesome pictures of tortured and killed animals because people get upset."

PETA changed the way people view farm animals but not luke warm organization that never take chance of criticism from people.

If some people on this forum feel that this forum need only happy pleasant message to entertain people, I am on wrong forum.

I have no idea why my title of "Our best friends are tortured!" is so offensive to some people.

Why is it so offensive to use the word 'barbarity' ?

Of course we have different degree of feeling anger and and some people do not feel strongly enough.

I can actually feel different degree of sensitivity when I read message of people.

Please don't tell me my anger do nothing to help animals because my anger is just my natural reaction by seeing chilling brutalities in our society and I am not saying my anger is helping animals.

What I'd like to see is fruits of effective way to change the idea of people when most people view farm animals as meat source and show heartless attitude toward farm animals.

Where is fruits?

If some people on this forum think their way is most effective way to change minds of peole about animals, where is fruits of their most effective way to reach people?

I am sure these people have many fruits to show.[/quote']

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with the words barbaric and torture etc, and there isn't anything wrong with showing horrific imagery etc, and I don't think there's anything wrong with what you've done on the forum. I think that it's clear what other people's reaction will be though, even if there is nothing wrong with it, it's not what people want, and you know what reaction you are getting, so it's not productive, even though what you say is correct. Lots of people have posted things here to boycott, or things to contribute to, and people do it even without confrontation.

 

With logical debate and reasoning I've got two people to go from vegetarian to vegan, and I've got 2 people to go from omnivore to vegetarian, and I've got 1 person to become a stricter vegetarian than they were.

 

Excellent "fruits" Richard.

 

SO let's sum this up for Violet once and for all:

 

NO there is nothing wrong woith outrage, passion, fire, expressed.

 

NO there is nothing wrong with using strong words like "barbaric" and "torture" because that is what they are. It is calling a spade and spade and there is nothing wrong with that. However, if you care about effecting change effectively, then you need to do what works.

 

NO there is usually nothing wrong with your initial posts/action alerts Violet. But there IS something wrong with this summary/recal below, and hopefully you can see it now:

___________________________________________________________

Violet: Our best friends are being sadisctically tortured in Asia (among other countries). Please help stop this barbaric sadictis toture.

 

jay: I am wondering if this happens to dogs and cats there because they view it as culturally acceptable, viewing dogs and cats like the same as they (and most Western countries) view cows and chickens?

 

Violet: jay, what i am against is SADISTIC EVIL BARBARIC TORTURE? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A DOG WITH A METAL AROUND HIS MOUTH?

_____________________________________________________________

 

Obviously the above is a condensed version, but this has been, on more than one occasion, the nature of the "dialogue" between you, Violet, and those who respond to your initial (and perfectly fine) posts. Clearly, it is problematic.

 

Do you see?

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