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I'm afraid to try creatine...


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I'm debating creatine....I read it gives you a bunch of extra energy - which seems great except I have anxiety problems which can occasionally lead to violent episodes or panic attacks where I harm myself intentionally or have extreme craving to self harm. (I have been in depression relapse for 6 years - unmedicated becasue antidepressants are animal tested and I feel that's not in line with my vegan values...its wrong for something else to suffer for me)

 

I recently started on L-Glutaimine. Started at 1/4 the daily dosage and then when I went to 50% I noticed I was really anxious and suicidal and having arm smashing cravings within a couple hrs of taking the pills and I can't think of any other thing that might have caused it. It was only for the first few days and I seem ok now. I'm nervous to increase the L Glutamine even more...

 

Can some of you folks that have taken creatine tell me whether it gave you anxiety or affected energy negatively? Was it to much energy to deal with? What are the best vegan brands of creatine?

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My experience with creatine is that its totally adjacent to your energy levels unless you are in the middle of doing something.. in other words it will help you pull more reps off but you wont notice it otherwise. Maybe thats just me. Make sure you drink a crapload of water though or you can hurt yourself. It puts all the water in your body into your muscles... can dehydrate your brain. So drink lots of water when you take it. Dont go without available water near you for a few hours.

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Yeah, I don't believe anyone I've known who has taken creatine has ever experienced "energy" in a similar way to taking stimulants such as caffeine (if that were the case, I wouldn't still be drinking 2 big coffees to keep going each day!), moreso that you'll feel the extra endurance (which many may mistakenly be referring to as "energy") during your training. I've taken creatine for probably 2 full years of my life over the last 15 years between all the cycles where I've used it, and not once has it made me feel more energetic or stimulated. You may notice not getting worn out in the gym as much, but no worries about feeling overly stimulated, it just doesn't work in that way.

 

But, getting to one of your notes from above, I wouldn't avoid necessary medications that may have been animal tested years and years ago if it means you have to suffer daily. I used to think like that, but now I have to take an animal-tested drug to keep from going blind, and I've realized that by NOT taking such medications, I'm neither bringing back any animals lost to testing nor am I doing any good for the movement by suffering and losing my basic abilities. And, I have taken anti-depressants (years of extreme depression/suicidal thoughts) before as well while vegan, and many other vegans do take them as well. Since we can never really be 100% vegan in all aspects of living, there are certain times when it may be for the best to not scrutinze everything completely if it means we have to suffer each day by avoiding something that could vastly improve our lives. If things that are as inocuous as L-Glutamine could trigger thoughts of self-harm, then I would strongly suggest that this is a case where dwelling on the ethical implications of animal testing done on something such as, say, Prozac done 20 years ago is not as important as considering something that can make life bearable and less painful each day.

 

Just wanted to share this opinion from one person who has been in situations where I could have either made myself miserable and lost health over an ethical hurdle, but chose instead to make a minor concession to do more for the movement than dealing with crippling illness because I didn't want to partake in something that may likely have involved animal cruelty at some point years ago. Nobody in the movement should crucify someone for doing what is needed to exist, and if anyone does, then they obiviously haven't been in your shoes and couldn't begin to understand what you have to go through. Those same people aren't going to build a shrine in your honor if something happens to you simply because you avoided a medication, so do what you must to be able to live your life in a way that isn't miserable for your mental and/or physical well-being.

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Thanks for the comments....I guess I will try it...

 

On the topic of animal tested antidepressants:

I don't consider happiness an essential part of life and its not something I pursue. I don't value my life more than any rat that was experimented on. We have equal ability to feel physical and emotional pain. I don't deserve happiness any more than the rat does and I will not steal it from an innocent creature.

I took antidepressants as a teen - and the guilt knowing something else suffered for me filled me with the most horrific gut wrenching guilt. Maybe now I want to die all the time...but I have a clear conscience and that is worth more to me than happiness.

Why is the date of the suffering important? The pain felt 20 years ago was just as hideous to the sufferer as it would be if it happened today. I don't care when the happiness was stolen...I won't support the companies that stole it.

 

now I wonder what animal testing has been done with creatine...

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I had a very long reply earlier, but deleted it. I'll summarize down to a moderately-long reply instead:

 

I can do MUCH more good for the vegan movement when I'm not curled into the fetal position, wishing my life would terminate instantly due to crippling depression. I can do much more good when I can see the world around me and won't need someone to guide my blind self through simple daily movements. Both of those things require me to make concessions to trying to be 100% pure in my veganism, and I'm okay with that, as are a great deal of people in the vegan community. I'm not saying EVERYONE needs to do as I do, but my point being, how much more could one do for the greater good of reducing animal suffering if they felt like they could take on the world vs. being mired in issues that negatively affect their mental/physical health each and every day?

 

Considering that we're all flawed vegans who can never achieve 100% purity, I don't see any issue with taking medications that leave only one way to solve a problem that can destroy your well-being when uncontrolled (providing vegan, natural options have not offered success - I tried many and none worked for me). I wouldn't go out and eat gelatin candy because it sounds good, but if I have to take a medication to be able to get out of bed and it has a gelatin capsule, that's what I will do, and I won't spend my life self-flagellating over it. It doesn't make me any less vegan or any more pro-cruelty to do so in doing something out of self-preservation rather than sheer entertainment/pleasure/gluttony/etc. I simply don't want my life to be miserable and be an ineffectual person who cannot do more good due to drowning in a personal ethical quagmire that would keep me feeling ill or worse. Everyone can make their own decisions, and again, they don't have to do as I do, but understand that you hold the key to your own release from suffering. I know I made the right choice for myself in not wanting to call my life over and done by making sure to take what I've needed in order to keep the abilities to push ahead to make the world better.

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Didn't mean to make you think I was saying anything directly to you, jungleinthefrunk - just making a general statement to those who have the perception that martyring yourself in the name of veganism is actually a better choice than living a fulfilling life free of misery. It's scary to think, but I've encountered a good deal of people like that who have said "I don't care if I have cancer, I wouldn't take conventional treatments and would rely on my diet and ethics to save me", which is pretty frightening to ponder and only makes the movement look a bit off kilter as far as how we do things. My point is simply to let those who think the "Vegan Police" will kick them out of the movement for doing what they need to do for proper health or survival by medicating, know that we all have to do what we have to do, and nobody can fault us for caring about our own health!

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Believe me, I'm not big on pharmaceuticals unless absolutely necessary (I'm one of those guys who tends to get every side effect possible, so I only use what is required and nothing extra). While it would be nice to put that money in the pocket of someone else vs. a billion-dollar corporation, it's the only option for some of us, and when the natural remedies fall flat (as they have done for me, I spent a full year trying everything to slow my degenerative vision disorder and nothing helped), there's not much else to go with. So, I only suggest taking prescription stuff when there's no other alternative, that's for sure - the permanent double-vision and slower skin healing I've had to adapt to from my treatments is testament enough to why I WISH there was a better way, just that there's nothing out there that can help me other than such medications...yet!

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I am HIV+

 

After 2 years, my levels were bad, so my doctors thought it was the right time to start the drugs. Those products are tested on animals: monkeys, dogs, rats,... and once you start, it's for life and there are no ways around.

 

- If I don't take the pills, my life would be shortened, painful & miserable.

- If I take them I support companies that test on animals and will keep doing so. But I wouldn't experience what is cited right above.

 

...

So the balance for me was to take them, it's selfish, but not to take them is also selfish. If my goal is to try to bring something positive for the animals, I had to get better.

If I can't function to my best, how could I bring a change for the animals?

 

They can't defend themselves, we have to be there for them so we have a responsibility. This is (to me) much more important than a list of "ingredients" or companies to boycott. The boycott has it's limits, we have to understand and ask ourselves why we boycott, what impact does it have for the animals and for veganism because ultimately, it's not about what I put in my body (that's easy) but what people do to animal's body that matters.

 

Veganism should be the norm, and it has to come within the limits of our non-vegan world.

 

 

I can't stop animal testing, even if I boycott those companies it will not change anything for the animals. I can however have much more impact on people if I am well-rounded, healthy, fit, happy & social person (which half of them I am still working on)... nobody wants to share the ethic (and lifestyle) of a pale, depressed, sick and miserable person. Even if that person is right.

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Sorry to hear about your situation, Petitpois But, it is nice to know another vegan who understands that suffering in misery or dying early by avoiding necessary medications isn't showing anyone that veganism is anything they'd seriously want to consider being a part of. Nor does it reverse an ounce of animal suffering to take on additional self-suffering by letting things run their course without concern for self-preservation. I've had people say to me "Is veganism like a religious cult? I hear you vegans won't take medications even if you're sick!", which is sad to hear that people think we're all that way, which is very off-putting to those who might otherwise consider going vegan themselves one day.

 

You said it well with this:

 

I can't stop animal testing, even if I boycott those companies it will not change anything for the animals. I can however have much more impact on people if I am well-rounded, healthy, fit, happy & social person (which half of them I am still working on)... nobody wants to share the ethic (and lifestyle) of a pale, depressed, sick and miserable person. Even if that person is right.

 

Lead by example, feel as best you can while doing it, and do as much good as you can while you're here. We can't do much more than that, can we?

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Vegan Essentials, I always appreciate the detail and effort you put into your responses on all the topics you write on...

 

I wondered how long I'd be part of this website before I started this debate... I made it about 2 weeks.

I'm prepared to suffer (and die) for what I beleive in ...that's the difference...other people draw the line at the idea that they might actually suffer themselves and justify reasons they shouldn't have to.

Imagine your own child being experimented on - tortured and killed - so that you could take a medicine. Really imagine seeing that happening to your son/daughter and hearing the sounds they make and seeing their terror and pain...I love animals like my children and they have equal ability to suffer. I have PTSD from childhood trauma involving mutilated animals. I see and hear those animals 24/7 now. Most people have an automatic shut off to not think about things that are too traumatic/disturbing to think about, and becasue we're conditioned to stay shut off its easy to justify taking meds. But PTSD causes me to see and hear the graphic reality that everyone else blocks out.

 

Maybe if people started dying because they refused animal tested drugs then they'd start making drugs vegan and not animal tested...but that's what it would take for drastic changes to the system...some of us will need to suffer/die to make it happen. I wouldn't consider my life wasted.

 

Forcing an animal to live a short, miserable, excruciating life so that I don't have to is wrong. The animal experiences terror and pain just the same way I do. It too only has one life that it gets to live in this world. I don't deserve happiness or health more than it does and if bad luck has stuck me with whatever illness then that is my own bad luck. Just because I can steal an innocent animals happiness and health, and everyone else is stealing it, doesn't make it ok.

 

If people want to make their difference to the world by not eating animals and being happy healthy people inspiring others meanwhile taking antidepressants, headache, arthritis or whatever meds that have caused just as much animal misery as slaughterhouses I think its only 50%. You can influence others with your body and diet, that's fantastic...but you an also lead by example of compassionate self sacrifice - which really gets peoples attention and makes them think. They won't follow...they're conditioned to care only of themselves and block out the screaming of a mutilated animal...but at least they will think.

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I agree with both of you,

 

However precision female, I don't feel that I am responsible that they used animals for research. And I have to draw my own line somewhere: how can I bring a change in this complex-horrible and depressing situation, how can I bring the best of myself for bringing that change and saving animals from misery on the big scale?

 

I think it's also how you resonate, but I am not sure about your conclusion:

but you an also lead by example of compassionate self sacrifice - which really gets peoples attention and makes them think. They won't follow...they're conditioned to care only of themselves and block out the screaming of a mutilated animal...but at least they will think.

Most people think of me as an extremist because what I do is so far away from them. Many still think you'll get sick if you are vegan, you need meat, dairy, eggs... that if you take supplement it's the proof it's not the right choice, etc.

 

They don't look at the world with my perspective and my knowledge on all those questions.

I am sure you also experienced how terrible and frustrating it can be to debate with a person who just don't understand very basic concepts, doesn't know what he is speaking about and doesn't want to know (some of them are even doctors, dietitian, love animals...). I don't think those people care how "consequent" I am since they don't understand what it is about.

 

Imagine your own child being experimented on - tortured and killed - so that you could take a medicine.
Don't they grow our (organic) food with manure (coming from animals)? Shall we avoid that food? What about transportation of food, doesn't it kill some animals sometimes? What about the materials, tools, for building the cars, what about the roads? Didn't we destroy animal habitat to build ourselves homes, computers, Internet access, etc.? What if those were our child?

 

We can never be a complete hole vegan in a non-vegan society.

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I appreciate the different viewpoint as well, PF - just because we don't necessarily agree does not mean we're not for the same end mission, however, we do see things in different shades on this issue.

 

I'm prepared to suffer (and die) for what I beleive in ...that's the difference...other people draw the line at the idea that they might actually suffer themselves and justify reasons they shouldn't have to.

 

Well, a main difference here is that, just as I value the lives of other sentient beings, I also value my own life and the fact that I have a host of people who depend on my existence for their own well-being as well (wife, employees, family, cats, etc.) While the notion of suffering for my beliefs if I truly believe in them is fair, I'm not just suffering myself by denying medication, but I also would be increasing the hardships of all those who rely on me as well. The fact is, it would be selfish as well to say "Hey, I'm going to need you to help me around when I lose 90% of my vision, I may no longer be able to employ you when I can no longer work, and I will now require you all to provide care for me when I can no longer care well for myself." There is more to the whole picture than just the consideration of animals lost in the past, there is also a great deal of concern on my part for those who need me now, both human and animal, and those who will need me to be at my functional best in the future.

 

Imagine your own child being experimented on - tortured and killed - so that you could take a medicine.

 

But, this is under assumption that we have a choice in animal testing at this time. There is none, sadly, and that is just how it goes. I did not ask for animal testing to happen any more than I asked for the afflictions that have changed my life drastically. Would you tell someone dying of cancer who may need chemo that it is their better purpose to accept a painful death because their drugs were animal-tested and that they need to forego their own existence to make an ethical stance on something that can't be undone? Where do we draw the line on what we can and can't take for proper health based on vegan ethics? Where in the basic tenets of veganism does it state that we need to consider shortening our own lives for our ethics?

 

Maybe if people started dying because they refused animal tested drugs then they'd start making drugs vegan and not animal tested...but that's what it would take for drastic changes to the system...some of us will need to suffer/die to make it happen. I wouldn't consider my life wasted.

 

If thousands and thousands of people decided to forego life-saving medications to die for their ethics and made a public spectacle of it, maybe then something would happen. However, a few vegans seen as giving up medications to make an ethical standpoint will succeed in one thing and one thing only - making the movement look "crazy", and reinforcing the stance to most people that it's a lifestyle that what we do is so far off what they'd consider, it will only marginalize veganism further. Remember those stories about "vegan" parents who ended up killing their children through malnutrition due to their inability to know how to properly feed their babies? It would become another one of those situations overnight, creating more fodder for the non-vegans to make us look insane.

 

Forcing an animal to live a short, miserable, excruciating life so that I don't have to is wrong. The animal experiences terror and pain just the same way I do. It too only has one life that it gets to live in this world. I don't deserve happiness or health more than it does and if bad luck has stuck me with whatever illness then that is my own bad luck. Just because I can steal an innocent animals happiness and health, and everyone else is stealing it, doesn't make it ok.

 

But, this is being said on assumption that every time you were to medicate a condition, an animal somewhere is being killed each time you take a pill, receive an injection, or whatever it may be. That's far too broad, and not factually accurate. Yes, when medications are tested, due to current mandates, animals are unfortunately still used and killed for research and data. However, not all medications are being tested over and over and over again on a constant daily/weekly/monthly/yearly basis, it is not necessarily a continual requirement on everything. Now, say a medication that could vastly improve your health had been tested during the clinical study phases a decade ago, but had not been tested since that time. In such a case, the damage is done, and cannot be undone by avoiding taking such a medication. I am not saying this to excuse what had been done to create it - it is simply fact. No amount of self-inflicted suffering by avoidance of that medication can resurrect an animal life lost to that testing. So, if that is the case, what is to be gained by avoiding such a medication? Will people walk past you and instantly know that you're making an ethical standpoint while you suffer silently? How will that change hearts and minds of others? That's ultimately the core of my question - I do understand the great desire to not be connected to cruelty any more than need be, but also, by driving, by using electricty, by having shelter that was created for us, by merely walking outside, something had to die for it. And things will continue to be killed for our own day-to-day existence whether we like it or not - we just tend to overlook the hundreds of examples that aren't made a spectacle of, while things like medications and the processes used to create them get more attention. I mean, we could talk about the thousands of field mice and other creatures that are killed during the harvesting of vegetable crops, but following the logic of not being connected to cruelty in any way, we'd have to stop eating altogether if we put it all on the same plane. That's why I don't think we can be completely sweeping about some situations, because we are all hypocrites in some way with veganism, we still unfortunately have to bring about suffering so we can live the way we're accustom to.

 

If people want to make their difference to the world by not eating animals and being happy healthy people inspiring others meanwhile taking antidepressants, headache, arthritis or whatever meds that have caused just as much animal misery as slaughterhouses I think its only 50%.

 

So, despite my eating/living vegan for over a decade, starting a business that serves the vegan community, and avoiding non-essential medications except for two that have allowed me to continue to exist without being in misery and allow me to function, that's only 50% good? I have to say, that's a pretty offensive statement to make. I know many people like to tweak the definition of veganism to suit their own emotional needs the way that it makes them feel like they're doing things properly, but you do have to understand, it's simply YOUR personal interpretation and not that of the general movement. And, I do not mean to sound rude, but such an attitude will turn more people away from going vegan than it will to convert people to it.

 

You can influence others with your body and diet, that's fantastic...but you an also lead by example of compassionate self sacrifice - which really gets peoples attention and makes them think. They won't follow...they're conditioned to care only of themselves and block out the screaming of a mutilated animal...but at least they will think.

 

I personally don't know anyone who was ever attracted to veganism for the glory of personal suffering and self-flagellation over the sins of their past for living a non-vegan lifestyle, or for the sins of others who committed atrocities against animals that were without their knowledge and under factors beyond their control. Most non-vegans I speak with think that it's the ultimate self sacrifice to have to give up cheese - try telling those same people that to be TRULY compassionate, they may need to let themselves die in agony one day in order to make a stand. Those I know who were drawn to it were attracted primarily because they love animals and wanted to reduce suffering to the greatest extent they could within reason. Not everyone who loves the animals and wants to reduce suffering is willing to perform self-sacrifice for their ideals, just as most who claim to hold certain ideals in high regard are not willing to die for other agendas as well. It's not a sign of not caring enough about the animals - it's simply that we're all only human, and we aren't all on the same page about believing that self-sacrifice is the highest form of commitment we can make. Because, after all, once you've sacrificed yourself, you can't do any more good for the movement...

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Precision Female

Creatine did give me a caffeine type buzz when I first started it, but that went away in a few days.

 

As for the ethical debate you have going in this thread (sorry jumping in a little late):

I look at animals as people, just non-human people and should be treated in a similar way as we treat another person.

Do we kill and eat other people? No...

Do we enslave women to product milk and kill their babies so we start the milk cycle over again? No.

Do we dress in dead people's skins? Use their body parts in our product? Enslave them to their death? Exploit them without remorse? Do medical testing on other people? No, no, no, no and no!

There is no real scientific evidence that animal are all that difference than us, they have the same emotions, pains, fears, joys, and happiness as us.

Yes, we can't directly communicate with animal like other people and their cognitive processes may be difference, but it seems that way with other people sometimes too.

 

With that being said, I try not to worry about other people's happiness or lack of, or do I try to help every person I meet... Why? Because most people don't want (or need) my help, and will tell me to just go away if I butt in their business.

I use this approach with animals. I think the best way to make animals happy is to stop exploiting them and just leave them alone, (in the wild) they are more than capable to finding their own happiness just like most people are.

 

There are some cases when an animal clearly needs my help, and of course I will help them, this is the same with some people as well.

 

I don't really see animal as my children or other people as my children either.

 

Kenny

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There’s too much here to respond too…I guess I’ll do with some random points.

 

Not being able to change the past or feeling hopeless to change the future has long been an excuse to not do anything and an excuse to not care or feel the appropriate guilt for things.

 

Determining my life to be more valuable than another is greedy. We’ve been conditioned to think ourselves superior and more worthy of life. That does not make it true.

 

Despite my extreme beliefs, nobody considers me crazy… knowing I won’t change anyone else’s beliefs is not an excuse to not say anything or not live my life according to my values. I will let cancer take me if I get it. Not a martyr…just doing what’s right. Of course nobody is going to follow my idea because they want to suffer and be miserable. IF anyone followed my lead its because they would value and admire living true to their morals and heart, and they’d see that the value of that is greater than their own health or happiness. A realization that their own health and happiness is less important than the rest of the world.

 

I cry also for the animals I stop to move off the road and all the others killed by human activity, I have cradled what’s left of them in my arms, the world is entirely unacceptable to me and I want no part of it, there is no happiness here except for those who don’t want to acknowledge what goes on around them. And people are good at that. But there is a small difference.... those animals mentioned by Petitpois weren't born with the sole purpose of suffering for our greed which is the case with most lab animals.

 

No individual is responsible for animal testing, but as a collective we are 100% responsible and every person looks around and says "well everyone else is supporting it so I shouldn't have to make a sacrifice to make a difference". Each person putting blame on anyone but themselves. Nobody willing to feel any guilt for their part of it.

 

A person choosing to take a med that literally saves their life I understand the reasoning but disagree with the action...taking a med that animals died to make for anything non life threatening is unnecessary cruelty. What bothers me most is people don't feel an appropriate amount of guilt for the pain they cause (or support) because they choose to stay in denial, or blame others. Which makes it really easy to keep doing it. If people actually saw and acknowledged what's really involved with a bottle of painkillers they'd feel so guilty and disgusted they'd choose not to buy it and suffer instead - which would result in the birth of more ethical medicines.

 

On some occasions I have to use a product that has animal involvement and there's no way around it. But at least I feel the appropriate guilt, I think about the animals...see their eyes...I hear them suffer... it isn't a mindless decision...and that causes me to keep my animal involved choices to an extreme minimum (vegan would be an understatement for my lifestyle) and come up with alternatives.

If people felt the appropriate guilt imagine how that would fuel them to live differently and treat others and animals with respect and love.

 

Of course nobody can be 100% vegan…but that’s not an excuse to not try harder to achieve 100%. Diet is only a small part of that effort. A million people making a difference had to start somewhere with an idea from only one or a few people.

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I clicked on this post because I am also hesitant to try creatine and was curious about others' experiences. I don't have my answer to that yet. But, I want to toss in my 2 cents on the medication issue. I completely understand the desire to not give one penny to a company that has has conducted animal testing. I mourn for the nightmarish sufferingthese animals have been forced to endure. I go out of my way to never exploit any person or animal or condone/ reward that exploitation.

Also: The animal rights movement needs strong, effective, awesome people. We are so small-- we need every person who cares about these babies. To take yourself out of this movement, to make yourself ineffective, is hurting animals by allowing their exploitation and their suffering to flourish. You are obviously very committed and compassionate. To lose you is a tragedy.

You are willing to suffer for the animals-- then suffer through handing out veg starter kits and risking ridicule, or through attending protests regardless of weather or distance, or through going undercover in labs/ slaughterhouses/ etc to catch video that may make the next person go vegan and prosecute the abusers. You are capable of so much. Don't suffer for your ideals without making a positive impact!

Hugs!!

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Again, I certainly appreciate hearing back on your thoughts, even if we're seeing from different perspectives. Just a few last points -

 

Determining my life to be more valuable than another is greedy. We’ve been conditioned to think ourselves superior and more worthy of life. That does not make it true.

 

So, though animals in the wild have instinct for self-preservation and may do things that require unfortunate actions to happen in order to self-preserve, why is it wrong for humans to do so if it is actually, truly necessary for existence? Why must we suffer and die early for ethics? Why must our ethics be the first and most important factor in where our lives go in all aspects and that the world must bend to them, or we forego everything that isn't in 100% alignment? As an example again, try telling the mother of 4 young children that she should forego chemo and let herself fall victim to a fatal disease so she can make an ethical standpoint that isn't actually saving animals by refusing treatment, and I think you'll find that she won't agree with you. Nor will her children. Nor will her family and friends. Compassion needs to extend to ALL beings, people included, and I've had a real eye-opener in seeing how many vegans tend to forget that humans are animals, too, and suffer just like anything else does. When we begin to simply say "Well, humans are different, they know better, so screw 'em if they do things in a way I don't think is in line with my ethics", we lose compassion and fall victim to misanthropy.

 

I can certainly see it being compared to when people ridicule Jehovah's Witnesses for refusing blood transfusions that could easily save lives - I've yet to hear anyone who is not part of that religion say "Good for them, they died early but it was for their faith and conviction that their ethics were right, I want to be like that, too!" I see the same thing for what would happen in a situation being done for vegan ethics as well, people shaking their heads at the notion of early death to make a statement.

 

No individual is responsible for animal testing, but as a collective we are 100% responsible and every person looks around and says "well everyone else is supporting it so I shouldn't have to make a sacrifice to make a difference". Each person putting blame on anyone but themselves. Nobody willing to feel any guilt for their part of it.

 

But why does that mean those who may be in need NOW must forego what is available for treatment to be "ethical" and die early simply because we haven't yet come to a better way of creating treatments without animal experimentation? You have to understand, I had to do a LOT of soul searching to take the medications I have to in order to function. It isn't as if I rolled over, said "screw it" to that which I've believed in for over a deacde and thereby dropped all standards to which I adhere. It isn't as if I started eating meat the next day because if I was going to make one concession, I may as well let it all slide. That's the slippery slope you've been on with much of the discussion - you are viewing it from an all-or-nothing stance as if anything less than striving for purity is failure. In all other ways I still remain vegan, so you have to understand that myself and others in such situations will take offense to feeling as if we're pariahs because we don't revel in suffering so we can die sooner than later but have a clear consceince in one small area of our lives. I am ONLY responsible for my own life and what I can do to help others - I am not part of "the collective" in being able to control the will of the masses around me to do things in a more compassionate way than I am for controlling the weather; I can try to influence others via my attitudes and actions, but I can't control them, and I don't wish to do so. I think that the assumptive mindset you have in that anyone who may not live to your ideals is doing things out of "greed" (in always believing they're more important than others) or some other similar emotion is not on base for accuracy, and is divisive. Of course, you can feel as you wish, but it's assumptive, and not factual, made moreso to reinforce personal beliefs than to see from another perspective and have empathy for others who are not 100% on the same page.

 

A person choosing to take a med that literally saves their life I understand the reasoning but disagree with the action...taking a med that animals died to make for anything non life threatening is unnecessary cruelty.

 

Again, let me hope that you do not have to suffer through anything that forces you to make a decision on whether to die in pain and suffering or fight to live via things that may not be 100% in line with your mindset. What you also are not considering is that, animals do fight to live through the most dire of circumstances - when faced with pain or suffering, they don't immediately roll over to die without fighting to exist. Why should we simply call it quits because we may be more 'evolved'?

 

What bothers me most is people don't feel an appropriate amount of guilt for the pain they cause (or support) because they choose to stay in denial, or blame others.

 

When I first went vegan some 11 years ago, I was practically paralyzed in learning what I did about animal use, abuse, exploitation and experimentation. To the point where, for a while, I was so enraged, sad, terrified and confused that I was pretty much ineffectual for doing good for the animals in any real way, I was purely lost in the new reality which I had finally been brought to see that was going on around me. Some of us simply cannot spend every moment of the day pondering suffering and letting raw emotion guide our every move - for me, it increases my depression, leads to being ineffectual, and does not do a whole lot of good. I do not identify my sole existence as "to alleviate the suffering of others" as my one and only purpose on earth, so I can't keep that as my #1 thought every waking moment. I'm not the reincarnation of Mother Theresa. When I'm stuck in a quagmire of raw emotion that holds me hostage, I do nothing. Well, except stay in bed for days on end and refuse to leave the house. While I may be considering the suffering of everything around me more than ever during such times, I'm not doing anything productive for the animals or those who I care for when I'm in such a mindstate. Good on you if you can handle that each and every waking moment, but while my compassion for all beings is with me every moment, it is not that which defines my existence to where I am here for it above all else and will force myself to suffer more to make it my constant thought. It's not a lack of compassion, it's a matter of practicality to be able to exist.

 

On some occasions I have to use a product that has animal involvement and there's no way around it.

 

So, let me get this straight - you would feel guilt and use a computer [for example, as that's what is going on at the moment here] that you know probably had animal-based materials in the components even though it is non-essential for your life (no matter how much someone wants to claim such technology is essential, it certainly is not), but simultaneously are saying that it's selfish to take a life-saving medication. I think you may have a bit more soul-searching to do on this one, it seems a rather backward and doesn't really hold water. You truly can't use optional things or partake in modern civilization's ways and be okay with it other than feeling guilt, but then condemn those who would do something out of life-saving necessity. It simply doesn't add up.

 

Again, it has been interesting discussing this - I'm not doing so in any attempt to be mean or create any hard feelings, I'm just curious to know how you perceive things in the way you do.

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I will let cancer take me if I get it. Not a martyr…just doing what’s right.

 

Let me guess, you've never had a serious life threatening illness, right? Perhaps it's not intentional but your attitude here is extremely condescending.

 

I just want to give a big '+1' to everything VeganEssentials has said on this thread.

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Wow! You guys are really going for it here aren't you! Just going back to the origional topic a bit.... Creatine shouldn't really cause you any problems if you only take a small dose. 5g a day should be enough. Side efects often spoken about with creatine are when people are loading it and take much larger doses. In my opinion creatine doesn't affect your energy levels or moods. My boyfriend is bipolar but he doesn't medicate anyore. However, he has to be careful to watch his consumption of sugar as it affects his mood, and since I've been living with him I've come to realise that it's often sugar imbalances which make you aggressive and unsable and causes panic attacks and the like. So, low GI foods and 5g of creatine a day should be fine. Maybe you could start with just 2.5g and see how it goes, I'm sure you'll hardly notice and you could work up bit by bit to 5g stopping if you have any adverse efects.

Just an aside, I took creatine for years and while I got a great pump during my workouts, that's the only thing I really noticed. Also, unfortunately, you need to take it with sugar for it to be effective. This kind of insulin spike will stop muscle growth dead in its tracks if you put it into your post workout shake and can also have negative effects immediately pre workout, so be careful about your timing if you decide to use creatine.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Understanding me is simple… I value the lives of animals and humans equally if they have the ability to suffer equally. And accept that my own life, is less important than the rest of the world.

 

This debate has erupted because I’m defending my decision not to medicate for serious illness. What I’m saying is in my defense…not to convert or condemn others. Agreed there is no intent to create hard feelings.

 

James, it is through serious illness and near death experience, and the knowledge that I will be near death again without medications, that I have come to put so much thought into this topic.

 

I like this scenario with the mother and 4 kids. Perfect example! It misses the animal perspective...convincing the mother to die isn't the point. Its impossible that she would want to. Can you see that convincing mice to consent to being tortured, infected with disease, decapitated and thrown in the garbage... creatures with equal ability to suffer, is also impossible?...yet we have never respected their lives, mindlessly condemn them to suffer and die for us, and invent ways to justify it, ignoring their obvious vote that they would not consent. It is not ok. None of those mice are ok. No matter how many mothers with 4 kids are dying! It not any more right to use mice than forcing her own 4 children to give their bodies/lives for her to live. Why is only human compassion considered in this scenario when the mice are equally deserving of compassion.

 

EARLY DEATH...how interesting that we call natural death "early" to imply its wrong. Humans don't naturally have a life expectancy to 100...we have been cheating death - abusing other species to get it - and the norm is now a LATE death. A person should have the right to choose to live their natural life…mind boggling to me that we don’t. As soon as I’m unconscious I lose my right to refuse medications. Nobody should shake their head in sadness at a person choosing a natural ethical life. Its sad we’ve adopted that way of thinking.

Jehovah is a large group of people. It gives me hope that Jehovahs can stick to their morals...maybe others could do it as well.

 

By foregoing the unethical medications available now, a person creates the need to develop non-animal treatments…I think I already mentioned that. Yes…sad truth that it would come at a human price.

People doing things out of greed...I've come to that conclusion based on peoples real actions toward animals...where is my logic flawed? Nobody likes to think in their mind or say they are greedy...(nobody wants or intends to be greedy...I agree with that) We invent other ways to think about it in our heads to escape the guilt…usually by ignoring or being in denial of the reality of the pain we cause. But actions speak louder than words and thoughts. How do you think it looks to the animals? Might they see us as greedy stealing their lives without their consent for our benefit?

 

Animals fight when wounded...with their bodies and minds...but they don't farm and abuse other species. I support people to fight with their bodies and minds also...to the fullest extent that they can without condemning something else to die for them.

 

I said before I understand why a person takes a life saving med…I just disagree with it. Really my beef is more with non essential medications...like for headaches, arthritis, sexual dysfunction...all those things we don't need...just want. At least if we eat an animal its meat keeps us alive...there is more honour in that than using an animal to test cough syrup that soothes us through a very minor pain.

 

My realization of our cruel existence and resulting depression/anxiety has fueled enormous change and reduction of my impact on animal cruelty. It causes suffering for my personal life yes...but alleviates suffering for the rest of the world, which is more important.

 

I said before I'm not 100% perfect. I am not ok other than feeling guilt. I'm not above or immune to my own criticism of humans. I say "we" becasue I am part of it too. I do what I can to limit my cruelty impact..an ongoing process of making changes/sacrifices...and that means no medications among other things, and I thought - being on a vegan website - that decisions I make to not be part of animal cruelty would be respected rather than get the usual lecture that I SHOULD and MUST take meds and its ok to torture animals if its in the name of "compassion". But I was wrong.

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I like this scenario with the mother and 4 kids. Perfect example! It misses the animal perspective...convincing the mother to die isn't the point. Its impossible that she would want to. Can you see that convincing mice to consent to being tortured, infected with disease, decapitated and thrown in the garbage... creatures with equal ability to suffer, is also impossible?...yet we have never respected their lives, mindlessly condemn them to suffer and die for us, and invent ways to justify it, ignoring their obvious vote that they would not consent. It is not ok. None of those mice are ok. No matter how many mothers with 4 kids are dying! It not any more right to use mice than forcing her own 4 children to give their bodies/lives for her to live. Why is only human compassion considered in this scenario when the mice are equally deserving of compassion.

Well, it's not because you eat a drug that a mouse will be tortured. The drug is not made out of the dead carcass of an abused animal and then packaged. So taking that drug will not create more or less harm or suffering (it has been done in the past). The problem is financial support of an industry we don't want to support.

 

And I still don't understand why animal testing & medication is so intense in your point of view... you would accept to die rather than to be taking a drug tested on animals. But what about food? The harvest might most likely have killed some animals, and not to mention that organic food are grown with animal products (from their shit to their blood or bones). Do you try to eat ONLY vegan organic food?

 

Nobody should shake their head in sadness at a person choosing a natural ethical life.

You are writing this on a plastic molded keyboard made out of petrol thanks to the "non-natural" science and technology of humans... you say that you choose to live a "natural" life?

 

I think that a good vegan is a dead vegan. If you really want to be a consequent vegan : kill yourself, now. There is no alternative to living with zero animal exploitation in our modern world, and there is no distinction between medication, food or clothing. None is the most problematic, the problem is general and called "speciesim". That's what we have to fight in my opinion.

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