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Low Testosterone


PittyLove
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For anyone who has low testosterone and are facing the prospect of TRT, please drop me a line first. I was told by 5 different doctors that I should go on TRT, but a simple stimulation test increased my testosterone by nearly 600%. Not one of the doctors suggested a stimulation test. TRT is generally considered a lifelong treatment.

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A stimulation test consist of taking a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator (SERM) such as Clomid or Tamoxifen, or HCG. The SERMs are easier as they are oral and the HCG is an injection. I had nearly a 600% increase in 9 days on Tamoxifen, so it showed that my testicles were fine and fully capable of producing testosterone. It was very simple and easy way to prove I have secondary hypogonadism and I don't need TRT at all. I am now trying to fix my HPTA and hopefully get my body to produce testosterone on its own. If I can't, then I will have to cycle a SERM for the rest of my life, which is much much better than taking a steroid for the rest of my life.

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For anyone who has low testosterone and are facing the prospect of TRT, please drop me a line first. I was told by 5 different doctors that I should go on TRT, but a simple stimulation test increased my testosterone by nearly 600%. Not one of the doctors suggested a stimulation test. TRT is generally considered a lifelong treatment.

 

Thanks for posting the interesting post, based on real medical information and tests instead of marketing hokum, gym folklore, etc.

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....I will have to cycle a SERM for the rest of my life, which is much much better than taking a steroid for the rest of my life.

 

Why do you say that?

 

Why do I say I might have to take a SERM for the rest of my life, or why is it better than a steroid?

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Why do you need it. What happens if your testosterone is too low? Or better question, how have you been affected in the past by your testosterone being too low? What if any are the side effects of taking the SERM?

 

Low testosterone, in my particular case, causes very low energy, anxiety, weak bones, loss of muscle, difficulty sleeping, depression, sensitivity to cold, weakness, etc. It is not something with which it is easy to live.

 

Side effects of SERMS vary, but I have experienced none except occasional dry mouth.

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Why is it better than a steroid?

 

Curious on that as well - considering that HCG (the real stuff, not the "HCG Diet" crap) is typically derived from the urine of from pregnant horses, something I'd prefer to avoid if possible, I'd likely be more prone to taking a low dose of something like Androgel if I had to pick and choose, but perhaps there are other reasons. Perhaps SERMs offer the ability to take some lapses in between without medicating whereas a direct dose of testosterone would be continual?

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It seems like a person should be able to supplement with a lower does of testosterone for an 8-week cycle, then have 8 weeks off, but I could be wrong...

 

The problem being that most testosterones don't have long lives in the body after the last dose. From the people I know who have used, they always say that there's a significant "crash" anywhere from a few days to a few weeks out (depending on what they'd been taking). Typically, the more potent testosterones have shorter lives in the body and require frequent dosing, whereas others might take about 2 weeks before they've done all they can do, it depends on what people are using. Even with blends that do taper down over a few weeks, usually those who are using will start their doses of SERMs almost as soon as their steriod cycle is over to prevent going from feeling great to feeling terrible, since your body will essentially stop producing natural testosterone for long periods of time after using synthetic unless SERMs are incorporated in order to stimulate natural production again.

 

Oh, the things you learn from hanging out with guys who are chemically enhanced!

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It seems like a person should be able to supplement with a lower does of testosterone for an 8-week cycle, then have 8 weeks off, but I could be wrong...

 

Why would I want to do that when my testicles can produce all the testosterone I need? And if someone cycles testosterone like that, it would be a wild roller coaster. The 8 weeks off would require a SERM or other type of estrogen blocker to try and get natural testosterone back up.

 

Testosterone replacement is considered a lifelong commitment. The longer you take it, the harder it is to recover. SERMS tend to work the opposite. They stimulate your natural cycle and the longer you take it, the greater the chance the body will be able to continue producing natural testosterone. The side effects are much less in number and severity.

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Why is it better than a steroid?

 

Curious on that as well - considering that HCG (the real stuff, not the "HCG Diet" crap) is typically derived from the urine of from pregnant horses, something I'd prefer to avoid if possible, I'd likely be more prone to taking a low dose of something like Androgel if I had to pick and choose, but perhaps there are other reasons. Perhaps SERMs offer the ability to take some lapses in between without medicating whereas a direct dose of testosterone would be continual?

 

HCG is either derived from human female urine, or more likely synthetic. HCG increases ones natural testosterone, Androgel shuts it down. HCG is temporary, Androgel is permanent. Unless you use HCG to prevent shutdown when using Androgel.

 

In the last 4 weeks or so since I started taking the SERM, I have lost a good deal of fat, and gain a lot of lean body mass. I have experienced an endorphin rush or a "pump" until after I started taking the SERMs. Working out have become very easy for me. Much greater energy, and much faster recovery.

 

I am reducing the dosage everyday and hopefully will be off it completely soon. Hopefully my testosterone stays up.

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  • 1 year later...

Well, it has been over a year, but I wanted to give ya'll an update. I cycled Tamoxifen for 2 months on/2 months off, three times, and I am now free of all meds and my testosterone is staying in the low normal range. I sure am glad I didn't listen to the doctors.

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Getting your testosterone checked is useful to a degree but IMO shouldn't be taken as the final word. For example, here are some of the issues with getting your testosterone checked and basing everything off that one, solitary reading:

 

 

* Variation in serum levels. Influences include aging, obesity, thyroid dysfunction, diabetes, estrogens, and certain other diseases and drugs.

*What to measure? Sex-hormone binding globulin-bound testosterone accounts for 44% of the total but is unavailable to cells and affected by multiple conditions. Albumin-bound testosterone accounts for about 50% of the total and is weakly bound. Corticosteroid binding globulin-bound testosterone accounts for about 4% and is weakly bound. Free testosterone represents only 2% to 3% of the total and this is the important part

*One size does not fit all. Serum testosterone concentrations can vary by more than three orders of magnitude, depending on age, health, and other factors. No test can accurately capture the variation.

*Test technology. Radioimmunoassays, immunoassays, and liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry employ different principles to assess testosterone levels, and all have limitations.

*Lack of standardization. Includes definitions, parameters assessed, and reporting; there is no mandatory quality-control program.

 

 

Currently there is a lack of consensus about the definition of "low" testosterone among endocrinologists, urologists, and clinical pathologists. Published ranges for normal are based primarily on measurements in older men and are not designed to establish ranges in men with normal sexual and reproductive function. Normal ranges should be based on testosterone levels derived from a predefined health index population, which currently they are not.

 

 

Source reference: http://www.goldjournal.net/article/S0090-4295(13)01611-7/abstract

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How old are you? Sure it's on the low side, but what did all of your other biomarkers come back like when you got checked?

 

FWIW I would be trying to figure out WHY it is so low and try to correct it at the root of the cause rather than to raising it via hormone altering meds; this is why having all of the data from the rest of the biomarkers (ALT/AST levels, lipids, CRP, T3/T4 etc) can sometimes reveal the bigger picture by enabling you or your doctor to link the dots together.

 

Good to hear you are off the meds now

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Everything else was normal. Otherwise, at least one of the six doctors I visited would have likely recommended something else. Only my total test and free test was low. But this is all moot now. I fixed it and I now know that the standard medical practice in these cases is mostly pure BS and centered around getting one hooked on medication for the rest of their lives.

 

And in case anyone wants to know about how much my body has changed: Before treatment, I was doing multiple rounds of P90X and Insanity, I didn't appear to gain any muscle at all, but lost a good deal of fat. I went down to 155 pounds. After getting my testosterone corrected and continuing with the same exercises, I am around 185 pounds. I would guess about 5 pounds of that is fat. I feel a lot more solid and my muscles are firmer than at anytime in my life. I actually see performance increases now, whereas before, I only saw some minor increases in endurance. Recovery is much quicker and it takes me much less time to accomplish the same workouts now. Also, I have notice a significant decrease in joint and ligament pain when working out.

 

If anyone has similar issues, feel free to send me a PM with any questions. I have found that most people who haven't had this issue don't know much about it at all.

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Everything else was normal. Otherwise, at least one of the six doctors I visited would have likely recommended something else. Only my total test and free test was low. But this is all moot now. I fixed it and I now know that the standard medical practice in these cases is mostly pure BS and centered around getting one hooked on medication for the rest of their lives.

 

And in case anyone wants to know about how much my body has changed: Before treatment, I was doing multiple rounds of P90X and Insanity, I didn't appear to gain any muscle at all, but lost a good deal of fat. I went down to 155 pounds. After getting my testosterone corrected and continuing with the same exercises, I am around 185 pounds. I would guess about 5 pounds of that is fat. I feel a lot more solid and my muscles are firmer than at anytime in my life. I actually see performance increases now, whereas before, I only saw some minor increases in endurance. Recovery is much quicker and it takes me much less time to accomplish the same workouts now. Also, I have notice a significant decrease in joint and ligament pain when working out.

 

If anyone has similar issues, feel free to send me a PM with any questions. I have found that most people who haven't had this issue don't know much about it at all.

How old are you if you don't mind me asking? Do you know why your test levels are low?

 

It's probably the only thing I have never got checked when I've had my blood-work done. I have a couple of beautiful daughters, low bodyfat/high energy/good recovery from training and I feel fantastic so I don't really feel the need to know. Whether mine is low, normal or high (which I doubt at only a few years away from 40 haha) I'm fine. It is what it is.

 

Thanks for the explanation, take care MF.

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  • 1 month later...
Well, it has been over a year, but I wanted to give ya'll an update. I cycled Tamoxifen for 2 months on/2 months off, three times, and I am now free of all meds and my testosterone is staying in the low normal range. I sure am glad I didn't listen to the doctors.

 

I would get it checked again, if you have hypogonadism at whatever age youre at now, it can only get worse over time. Eventually you WILL need TRT or you will live a pretty miserable life. On another note SERMS can be quite unhealthy when compared to TRT which has no effect on lifespan. Clomid has caused eyesight deterioration for one....not sure about Nolvadex (Tamoxifen).

 

If you do decide to get TRT here are my suggestions. Get injections over the gel as its cheaper and keeps blood levels stable, and do the injections E3d or twice a week like tuesday/friday. Also have your E2 levels monitored by your doctor and try an herbal supplement for blood pressure if that ever becomes an issue. Just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. CHEERS

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  • 2 weeks later...
My testosterone was 113. Is that low enough for you?

 

I just had a full checkup a few weeks ago with an MD, GP. I'm 48. My testosterone came back at 460 ( forgot what the units or the name of the test, I got tested at LabCorp ). My doctor told me that "low testosterone" begins at 300.

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Well, it has been over a year, but I wanted to give ya'll an update. I cycled Tamoxifen for 2 months on/2 months off, three times, and I am now free of all meds and my testosterone is staying in the low normal range. I sure am glad I didn't listen to the doctors.

 

Congratulations.

 

I've heard of a drug developed for female fertility called clomid citrate. I think it works by stimulating some glands. In men it gets the body to begin producing more testosterone and often the drug can be discontinued while retaining the benefits.

 

Is Tamoxifen similar?

 

How did you find a doctor that knows about these things?

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Getting your testosterone checked is useful to a degree but IMO shouldn't be taken as the final word. For example, here are some of the issues with getting your testosterone checked and basing everything off that one, solitary reading:

 

 

* Variation in serum levels. Influences include aging, obesity, thyroid dysfunction, diabetes, estrogens, and certain other diseases and drugs.

*What to measure? Sex-hormone binding globulin-bound testosterone accounts for 44% of the total but is unavailable to cells and affected by multiple conditions. Albumin-bound testosterone accounts for about 50% of the total and is weakly bound. Corticosteroid binding globulin-bound testosterone accounts for about 4% and is weakly bound. Free testosterone represents only 2% to 3% of the total and this is the important part

*One size does not fit all. Serum testosterone concentrations can vary by more than three orders of magnitude, depending on age, health, and other factors. No test can accurately capture the variation.

*Test technology. Radioimmunoassays, immunoassays, and liquid chromatography-mass spectrometry employ different principles to assess testosterone levels, and all have limitations.

*Lack of standardization. Includes definitions, parameters assessed, and reporting; there is no mandatory quality-control program.

 

 

Currently there is a lack of consensus about the definition of "low" testosterone among endocrinologists, urologists, and clinical pathologists. Published ranges for normal are based primarily on measurements in older men and are not designed to establish ranges in men with normal sexual and reproductive function. Normal ranges should be based on testosterone levels derived from a predefined health index population, which currently they are not.

 

 

Source reference: http://www.goldjournal.net/article/S0090-4295(13)01611-7/abstract

 

 

Interesting post.

 

I've read similar things form bodybuilders on the web and from guys posting about libido issues.

 

My problem with your points is that it is hard to find a doctor who can acknowledge those points.

 

If a standard lab test shows overall testosterone in a normal range most doctors will not consider anything to be wrong and would consider altering hormone levels to be dangerous.

 

Information like yours would be useful if it could be boiled down to a name of a test to ask for.

 

Bonus points for how to find a doctor, and a reputable one ( can't emphasize that enough ) who is aware of the issues you mentioned.

 

I just got back from a urologist. I told him I read on the internet that standard lab tests do not tell the whole testosterone story. He literally said that was "bullshit".

 

I suspect a lot of doctors think that way, hence my point with having a place to start with the right doctor and the name of something to ask for.

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  • 2 months later...

Hello,

I`m a 20 years old guy from Germany.

My height is 6,2 feet. My weight is 192 lbs. BF 15 %.

 

November 2013 I made a diet and in 6 weeks I put my BF from 16% to 5-7%.

I didn't eat much fat and during the diet I started to feel very bad. I lost my sexdrive and my ejaculate volume sank every day. In December 2013 I nearly didn't produce ejaculate during an orgasm.

But I loved my form at this low BF and so i held the very low BF for 2 more month.

 

I also worked out very hard. 6 days a week and every day very hard. I felt very bad during the workouts and had not much energy.

In february 2014 I felt so bad, that I went to my doctor.

 

A bloodtest showed, that my Testosterone levels were very low:

0,9ng/ml (3,3-10)

 

I realized that the hard diet and the low bodyfat could be the reason for the low T levels.

I started to raise the fats and ate 30% fats from total daily calorie intake.

I paused the workout for 1 Month and after that month I started to workout very easy.

I put on BF and in June 2014 I had a BF of 15 % again.

I felt a bit better.

My T levels in May 2014

1,77 ng/ml (3,3-10)

 

 

I went to the doctor again and my test levels were now at 2,45 ng/ml (3,3-10)

 

 

My biggest problem is that I still have no sex drive and low ejaculate volume. Before I started the diet I masturbated for 3-4 times a day and produced a lot of cum.

I recover for 7 months now but I still have low t levels and no sex drive plus I feel not very well.

My current BF is 18 %. I think this is a healthy BF and my T levels should be normal again but they aren't. Im loosing hope again.

Currently I work out for 4 days a week and 2 times very easy cardio for 20 minutes.

I think thats not too much.

 

 

Will my T levels ever recover ?

Will I ever get my sex drive back ?

How long does it take to reover ?

Do I need TRT ? I really don't want to star TRT. I think my body should recover himself without medicine.

 

You took tamoxifen. Shall I also try that treatment or wait a bit more ?

Hope you can help me.

Best regards from germany.

Joe

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