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roe vs wade for men?


madcat
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I saw a little bit about his on the news last night but I missed the beginning. For what I could tell this is the story.

A man and a woman had sex, the woman got pregnant, she told the man, he said that he was not ready to be a father and could not afford to support a child. The woman decided she wanted to keep the child and after it was born she filled for child support. Now the man is fighting it because he says she know ahead of time that he was not going to be involved and if he were a woman he would have the right to an abortion and men should also have the right to not be forced into parenthood just as much as women.

 

 

What do you guys think?

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I like this question because a lot of times if I give my opinion on abortion I get told that my opinion is invalid because I'm a man. But since this question deals with the rights of a man I can say what I really think.

 

I think if the guy doesn't want the responsibility of being a father he shouldn't have sex. He has to accept the possibility that if a woman says she is on birth control she might be lying, or the possibility of a condom breaking, or whatever other potential things could happen. Since he chose to have sex he should be responsible for providing for the child.

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I disagree. Sex is not purely for making babies. If the pregnancy is not wanted, and the child would not grow up in adequate conditions, then abortion is totally justified. This is not to say that abortion should be used in place of birth control.

 

I would in this case support the guy. He made it clear that he did not want the child. Its the womans choice to have the baby, but to go chasing child support is wrong.

 

Jonathan

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People should just sign contracts before they start this sex business, it would clear up a lot of the current mess. But if the man was willing to take the risk of pregnancy (having sex) then he should also bear responsibility. Sex is not a limited liability engagement.

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I think if the guy doesn't want the responsibility of being a father he shouldn't have sex. He has to accept the possibility that if a woman says she is on birth control she might be lying, or the possibility of a condom breaking, or whatever other potential things could happen. Since he chose to have sex he should be responsible for providing for the child.

I agree with this.

 

I disagree. Sex is not purely for making babies. If the pregnancy is not wanted, and the child would not grow up in adequate conditions, then abortion is totally justified. This is not to say that abortion should be used in place of birth control.

This I also agree with, abortion can definiely be justified sometimes.

 

I would in this case support the guy. He made it clear that he did not want the child. Its the womans choice to have the baby, but to go chasing child support is wrong.

This I dont agree with. I think the choice should be the womans, and this would be a way for the man to put lots of pressure on her. Besides, how many men would then try to avoid having to pay child support by claiming they made clear before that they didnt want the child?

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I would in this case support the guy. He made it clear that he did not want the child. Its the womans choice to have the baby, but to go chasing child support is wrong.

This I dont agree with. I think the choice should be the womans, and this would be a way for the man to put lots of pressure on her. Besides, how many men would then try to avoid having to pay child support by claiming they made clear before that they didnt want the child?

 

That's what I was thinking. If this was the social policy it would be the ultimate loophole for dead beat dads. "Hey, I'm not taking care of that kid. I told the mom to have an abortion"

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just for the record i support bronco in this.

 

no sex, no kid,... no payment...

 

abortion is not nice (nobody likes this so it's not a nice anti conception methode), but but but this does not mean there is no justification for abortion .. it's the womens choice and in a ideal situation the choice from all around the pregnancy... there are other posibilities than man women...

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I agree with Jonathan.

 

BTW, I thought a verbal agreement was just as good as a written one?

 

Abort the baby or don't bother the daddy! If he is indeed telling the truth that is. If she agreed to get an abortion and then changed her mind, that's her own problem.

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[

Abort the baby or don't bother the daddy! If he is indeed telling the truth that is. If she agreed to get an abortion and then changed her mind, that's her own problem.

It seems very likely that the mother not getting child support will make things worse for the child. You think it right that the child suffers because the father is a moron who didnt understand how contraception works and doesnt take the concequences of his actions?

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It's so easy to say get an abortion but what if someone made the desicion to kill you!?

 

I have a child and I couldn't imagine life without her now she is in my life.

 

I think that sex is for making babies and correct me if I'm wrong but we are the only animals that have sex for pleasure and we take our chances each and every time we seek this pleasure so if this is how that guy feels then he shouldn't be going around having sex!

 

It seems highly arrogant to me!

 

juss my 2 cents!

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I think they're both irresponsible for not talking about what they might do about a pregnancy before having sex with each other. If they both knew before hand, maybe things would have gone differently.

 

Man: "If you accidentally got pregnant, what would you do?"

Woman: "I'd keep the baby"

Man: "I don't want kids though"

Woman: "I don't want an abortion either"

Man: "Well if you keep the baby, I won't support it, that'd be the end of us"

Woman: "I'd take you to court"

 

:s

 

Maybe they'd reconsider even having sex.

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I think that this is a tough issue. Theoretically, it would be great for men to have an equal say about whether or not they become dads. But I can't really see a practical way for that to work. As others have said, if guys could simply opt out of child care by saying they didn't want the woman to have the baby, I would imagine that an awful lot of guys would take that option. I think this is one of those unfortunate situation in which biology--the fact that the woman is the one who carries the baby--puts the ultimate decision on the woman. It's not fair (in either direction--being the one with the weight of that decision is not easy), but it's the way things are.

 

I think Richard has a good point. I don't believe that sex is only for making babies (if I did believe that it would mean no sex ever for me), but I think that people should be responsible about it, take all the precautions they can, and deal with whatever happens. And I think that if people made sure beforehand that their partners felt the same way they did about possible pregnancy, it would prevent a lot of problems.

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I think they're both irresponsible for not talking about what they might do about a pregnancy before having sex with each other. If they both knew before hand, maybe things would have gone differently.

 

Man: "If you accidentally got pregnant, what would you do?"

Woman: "I'd keep the baby"

Man: "I don't want kids though"

Woman: "I don't want an abortion either"

Man: "Well if you keep the baby, I won't support it, that'd be the end of us"

Woman: "I'd take you to court"

 

:s

 

Maybe they'd reconsider even having sex.

 

Even this, while solid in theory can fail in practice.

Plenty of women who think they would be fine with aborting a child change their mind when they actually become pregnant. Then the situation just gets messy.

 

Will nailed it...while I can understand the frustration of a man in that situation, who clearly stated his opposition to children, in court it would be a case of he said/she said, and basically one big loophole for irresponsible men.

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The thing behind this is that if she "agreed" to get an abortion, then changes her mind, she is the one that deceived him. If she wanted to keep the child or had mixed feelings, she shouldn't have agreed.

 

You cant say one thing and then go back on your word. If she does change her mind and wants to have the child, she shouldn't go bug the guy. It's like having the best of both worlds. You can't back out of a contract.

 

 

It's so easy to say get an abortion but what if someone made the desicion to kill you!?

 

I wouldn't have a problem with that since I wouldn't be here! hehe I could also care less since if I did get aborted, then theres no point of even talking about it since I would have no clue about living in the first place.

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The thing behind this is that if she "agreed" to get an abortion, then changes her mind, she is the one that deceived him. If she wanted to keep the child or had mixed feelings, she shouldn't have agreed.

So what do you think, that they agreed before having sex that if she got pregnant she would get an abortion? Doesnt sound very likely to me.

 

You cant say one thing and then go back on your word. If she does change her mind and wants to have the child, she shouldn't go bug the guy. It's like having the best of both worlds. You can't back out of a contract.

An abortion is not an easy thing. I think it perfectly reasonable that one could first decide to get one and then change ones mind. And speaking about backing out of a contract, you dont thinks its a bit unresponsible by the guy to refuse to support his own child?

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The thing behind this is that if she "agreed" to get an abortion, then changes her mind, she is the one that deceived him. If she wanted to keep the child or had mixed feelings, she shouldn't have agreed.

 

You cant say one thing and then go back on your word. If she does change her mind and wants to have the child, she shouldn't go bug the guy. It's like having the best of both worlds. You can't back out of a contract.

 

 

If the discussion were about...say, used car sales, I would agree with you completely.

This is an entirely different category however. For instance, she may whole-heartedly believe that she would abort a child, but then once pregnant, hormones are kicking in, she actually conceptualizes the fact that she will have a baby, maternal instinct, etc, etc, etc...it's not as simple as it seemed beforehand. Abortion is a tough, tough thing. And this is coming from someone totally pro-choice btw. I think it should be an option, and I would never tell someone they can't or shouldn't have one....but it's nevertheless an emotional, stressful, and even painful and/or emotionally damaging thing to have to do. Yeah, ideally a couple could agree to not have children even if a pregnancy occurred, but translated into real life situations....it's just not that easy.

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The thing behind this is that if she "agreed" to get an abortion, then changes her mind, she is the one that deceived him. If she wanted to keep the child or had mixed feelings, she shouldn't have agreed.

So what do you think, that they agreed before having sex that if she got pregnant she would get an abortion? Doesnt sound very likely to me.

 

You cant say one thing and then go back on your word. If she does change her mind and wants to have the child, she shouldn't go bug the guy. It's like having the best of both worlds. You can't back out of a contract.

An abortion is not an easy thing. I think it perfectly reasonable that one could first decide to get one and then change ones mind. And speaking about backing out of a contract, you dont thinks its a bit unresponsible by the guy to refuse to support his own child?

 

I just realized I pretty much repeated everything you said, Bronco....oops. Would've been quicker to just say I aree

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This is a really hard call for me, I can see both points of this argument. There is so much pro-choice for women (which is great) but you never hear about people fighting for men’s rights.

At the same time it seems that people think they are living in a world were we can hit the backspace button every time some thing bad happens. There are other things that sex can cause besides pregnancy, like herpes… or AIDS, that can not be undone. Birth control is great, but I wonder if it gives people a false since of being bulletproof or takes away their personal responsibility.

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This one band called "Consolidated" had a track about abortion and in it they said of course the typical male supports abortion because he is not responsible enough to deal with the consequences. That is just a little to think about it's not aimed at anyone or anything like that, I just think it's an interesting point. And what I also find interesting is that many of the women in the women's suffrage moment actually were against abortion.

 

Susan B. Anthony called abortion "child-murder" and insisted, "We want prevention, not merely punishment. Anthony recognized that one of the root causes of abortion was male exploitation of women (The Revolution, July 8, 1869)

Elizabeth Cady Stanton classified abortion along with the killing of newborns as "infanticide." (The Revolution, February 5, 1868)

the difference between contraception and abortion. arguments defending abortion would be perfectly reasonable if they were talking about contraception. When they insist upon ‘reproductive freedom’ and ‘motherhood by choice’ they forget that ‘pregnant’ means ‘being with child.’ A pregnant woman has already reproduced; she is already a mother."

http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/next-33.html

 

several of these women were also vegetarians. I think more so in england, but still the movements were coming together in some people even in the past.

 

Ohh and here is a quote you can be offended with or disagree with, it's gotten attention from people I know..."abortion doesn't make you un-pregnant, it makes you the mother of a dead baby." ~Amanda (some person from a bulletin on myspace.com) I am interested in what people think about that statement.

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A man and a woman had sex, the woman got pregnant, she told the man, he said that he was not ready to be a father and could not afford to support a child. The woman decided she wanted to keep the child and after it was born she filled for child support. Now the man is fighting it...

tough one. i think it's messed up that she knew he didn't want to raise/support a child and is now trying to force him to.

 

ideally, i think if you're going to have sex, you should be ready to have a baby. but that hasn't stopped me...

 

I think that sex is for making babies and correct me if I'm wrong but we are the only animals that have sex for pleasure...

others are getting it on for pleasure, too.

 

Sex evolving beyond reproduction

Humans, bonobos and notably dolphins are all species known to have non-reproductive sex, apparently for the sake of pleasure. All three engage in heterosexual behaviors even when the female is not in estrus, that is, at a point in her reproductive cycle suitable for successful impregnation. Likewise, all three engage in homosexual behaviors. That is not to say that homosexuality and non-reproductive heterosexuality are limited to these three species; rather, they are unusual for female receptivity to sex independent of estrus.

 

more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_intercourse

 

Ohh and here is a quote you can be offended with or disagree with, it's gotten attention from people I know..."abortion doesn't make you un-pregnant, it makes you the mother of a dead baby."

(uh oh, are we diving deeper into the abortion debate?)

 

would someone tell that to a woman that has a miscarriage?

 

regardless, when it comes to abortion (and more), i don't think it's right for men to tell women what to do with their bodies.

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regardless, when it comes to abortion (and more), i don't think it's right for men to tell women what to do with their bodies.

 

I think that men have at least some say considering society holds them equally responsible for the pregnancy. I think it is unfair on the one hand to expect fathers to pay support, when they are denied the choice that women have.

 

Jonathan

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(uh oh, are we diving deeper into the abortion debate?)

 

No kidding… I’m not sure we should dig that deep, or this conversation will go on and on forever!

 

 

All I want to say on the issue is you cant stop women from having abortions… legal or not if a woman is desperate enough she will find someone willing to do it.

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regardless, when it comes to abortion (and more), i don't think it's right for men to tell women what to do with their bodies.

I think that men have at least some say considering society holds them equally responsible for the pregnancy.

sorry, i totally agree that men should have some say! i just think women deserve a little more say since they're the ones carrying/giving birth.

 

ideally, i think both should be agreed on whether to try to get pregnant or what to do if they do accidentally.

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