Starving vegan in jail, he is dying so please help

[finbarrio]

I don't see cow as any more appetizing than cat, but if I were facing death, sustenance is sustenance. As I said before, who knows what I'd do, but death would not be my first choice.

 

hmm... I wonder what I'd do. I would hold off on eating meat as long as possible, both by principle, and by the fact that I find meat as appealing as eating a rock. But, who knows what urges might overcome someone on the brink of hunger-induced insanity?

 

Good job on the burning building rescue, btw. Ever see "The Outsiders"?

[VeganGirl2006]

** Warning...Change Of Heart **

After reading about this guy and his little gang, I don't care whether he gets his vegan meal or not.

 

Why the sudden change of heart?

[willpeavy]

What was he arrested for?

[finbarrio]

Why the sudden change of heart?

 

His advocating violent protest and a desire to kill a police officer, as well as his regret at not being present at a protest where an officer was killed - that pretty much did it for me. I'm all for vegans getting equal rights under the law when compared to other diet-related situations, but coming from a family of cops, I can't muster any sympathy for this scumbag.

 

http://www.thestudentunderground.org/stuff/54/affidavit.pdf

[willpeavy]

Thanks for the link Finbarrio. I didn't read the whole thing, but I skimmed through parts. I think trying to blow stuff up to get your way is a very bad idea of going about things. Killing cops is even worse. True, there are some bad cops, but most of the cops I've met are good people who care about the community.

[sinisterkungfu]

Why the sudden change of heart?

 

His advocating violent protest and a desire to kill a police officer, as well as his regret at not being present at a protest where an officer was killed - that pretty much did it for me. I'm all for vegans getting equal rights under the law when compared to other diet-related situations, but coming from a family of cops, I can't muster any sympathy for this scumbag.

 

http://www.thestudentunderground.org/stuff/54/affidavit.pdf

 

Anyone who would willingly associate themselves with ELF/ALF deserves to rot in prison. Being that the FBI considers them the #1 domestic terrorist organization, this jackass is lucky he didn't get himself hauled off to Gitmo.

[_raVen_]

I agree he may be a scumbag, but even scumbags deserve their day in court.

 

Proved guilty = loses rights -- okay; he still deserves to eat.

[finbarrio]

Proved guilty = loses rights -- okay; he still deserves to eat.

 

Agreed, but I'm not giving a cent to his defense fund, nor am I calling the sherriff etc. Not for this guy.

 

If it were you in there I would tho

[offense74]

Being able to be vegan is a luxury that most people on this planet can't afford. It's not a human right.

As long as he is not convicted they should give him vegan food simply because the community has taken his freedom without a trial. When he is convicted he has given up his freedom for whatever crime he made. This is what he risked when he did the crime, his freedom to choose whatever life he wanted to live.

They have to lock him up because (as I read from finbarrios link) he seems crazy and dangerous but as I said they should give him vegan food until he is convicted.

 

Same thing with kosher, halal, etc. Allergies are different because it can make the individual sick and that's not part of the sentence.

[FormicaLinoleum]

I thought the more vegans, the better. Let's forget about issue of whether the people in jail "deserve" to have vegan food--if a vegan has to start eating meat, dairy, and eggs in jail, what about the animals s/he is suddenly eating? For animals, surely it's best to help people who are vegan stay vegan, regardless of our views about the people. And if jails serve vegan food, maybe other inmates will eat it sometimes, lowering the overall meat, egg, and dairy consumtion in the prison system. That's good, right?

[wannalift]

i think its a mistake to look at this on a case by case basis. a prisoner should be able to make as many of the limited ethical choices he has available. many of the prisoners will one day be released back into the general population and becoming a vegan could be the first choice in changing their lives for the better.

[VeganGirl2006]

Why the sudden change of heart?

 

His advocating violent protest and a desire to kill a police officer, as well as his regret at not being present at a protest where an officer was killed - that pretty much did it for me. I'm all for vegans getting equal rights under the law when compared to other diet-related situations, but coming from a family of cops, I can't muster any sympathy for this scumbag.

 

http://www.thestudentunderground.org/stuff/54/affidavit.pdf

 

Thanks for the link. I am majoring in criminal justice in college right now, and this guy isn't being too kindly to officers.

 

Still, I think if he doesn't want to eat animal products he shouldn't be forced to eat them.

[finbarrio]

if a vegan has to start eating meat, dairy, and eggs in jail, what about the animals s/he is suddenly eating?

 

Excellent point.

 

They should change the whole prison to vegan!

[loveliberate]

All,

I want to respond to a lot of what's been posted recently but dont have time at the moment. For now, here's an update that I just noticed on Pdx Indymedia:

 

Eric's First Vegan Meal

author: [email protected]

 

After over 100 days of incarceration Eric McDavid has finally received his

first vegan meal. His first meal was 2 peanut butter sandwiches,

vegetables cooked plain, plain rice, fruit,carrot sticks, and a salad!

After weeks of sickness his health has finally started to improve. He was

finally seen by a doctor as well(that did little other than take his blood

and urine). He has received vegan food for the last few days but his

lawyers are still working to get some garauntee that he will continue to

be provided vegan food. He is doing much better now that he can finally

eat. After months of struggle this is a big victory for Eric and his

supporters. We will continue to monitor and report on the situation to

help ensure that Eric continues to be given nutritious vegan food.

[compassionategirl]

I thought the more vegans, the better. Let's forget about issue of whether the people in jail "deserve" to have vegan food--if a vegan has to start eating meat, dairy, and eggs in jail, what about the animals s/he is suddenly eating? For animals, surely it's best to help people who are vegan stay vegan, regardless of our views about the people. And if jails serve vegan food, maybe other inmates will eat it sometimes, lowering the overall meat, egg, and dairy consumtion in the prison system. That's good, right?

 

Excellent point Liz. I think you are the only one on this thread that didnt lose sight about what is in the best interests of the animals, and what the animals would want! That simple fact has been overlooked throughout this entire thread, so thanks for bringing it back to focus!!!

 

[veggymeggy]

VM: I couldnt break that post to start a new thread - have no clue how to do it. SO if you could just please respond in this thread, that will be fine. I dont care if its off topic or if constitutes a 'hijacking.'

 

This is the post I am talking about:

____________________________________________________________

 

I absolutely think the life of a human is more important than that of a cow/sheep/pig.

 

 

So let me get this straight, you think that just by virtue of being a Homo Sapien, you are more important/superior to a non-human animal? That your species makes you automatically more important than a non human animal?

 

**hmm maybe I should break this post off as this is a whole other debate***

 

Sorry for the slow response, I went camping for the weekend and was blissfully away from all forms of technology until today...

Anyway. I realize this is a drastically different position than yours, but YES, what I am saying is that by virtue of being a Homo Sapien, I am more important than a non-human animal. I think "specieism" is a load of crap. NOW, before you go off in a rage, understand that does not put me in oppostion to animal rights or animal welfare. I think as the most developed species on the planet we have an obligation to care for our world. I don't believe we have a right to harm those who cannot protect themselves from our greed, technology, etc. In only the most dire of circumstances would I be willing to kill for my own survival, and I doubt that such circumstances (whatever they would be) will ever arrive.

Not sure what else to say...didn't read through the whole post so I can't quite remember what the original context of my statement was. I'll go back and re-read, and edit if need be.

[compassionategirl]

VM: I couldnt break that post to start a new thread - have no clue how to do it. SO if you could just please respond in this thread, that will be fine. I dont care if its off topic or if constitutes a 'hijacking.'

 

This is the post I am talking about:

____________________________________________________________

 

I absolutely think the life of a human is more important than that of a cow/sheep/pig.

 

 

So let me get this straight, you think that just by virtue of being a Homo Sapien, you are more important/superior to a non-human animal? That your species makes you automatically more important than a non human animal?

 

**hmm maybe I should break this post off as this is a whole other debate***

 

Sorry for the slow response, I went camping for the weekend and was blissfully away from all forms of technology until today...

Anyway. I realize this is a drastically different position than yours, but YES, what I am saying is that by virtue of being a Homo Sapien, I am more important than a non-human animal. I think "specieism" is a load of crap. NOW, before you go off in a rage, understand that does not put me in oppostion to animal rights or animal welfare. I think as the most developed species on the planet we have an obligation to care for our world. I don't believe we have a right to harm those who cannot protect themselves from our greed, technology, etc. In only the most dire of circumstances would I be willing to kill for my own survival, and I doubt that such circumstances (whatever they would be) will ever arrive.

Not sure what else to say...didn't read through the whole post so I can't quite remember what the original context of my statement was. I'll go back and re-read, and edit if need be.

 

I agree with most of what you said - too lazy for quotes, but my difficulty with your position that just by virtue of being homp sapien, that that homo sapien is more important than a non human animal can be illustrated in the following example. (It is the only one I could think of off the top of my head):

 

What follows from that then is that the life of people like Osama Bin Laden, Charles Manson, etc. are more important than non human animals. I am definitely not comfortable with that? To use the typical burning house example, if I had the choice between Bin Laden and a my pet cat, or any cat, i would rescue the cat. So I dont think that Bin laden's life should be treated as more important than the cat's just because he is human and the cat isnt. SO there has to be something more than just "homo sapienness" or something different than your species that is germane. In my scenario, the cat is innocent and bin laden isnt, so I would save the cat (and there are other reasons for my choice too but let's leave that aside for now). Should Bin Laden get priority consideration over the cat just because he belongs to the homo sapien race?

 

PS. No worries about the delay in responding. I MAY not be online for a while again. Lots of exams...

 

re 'speciesm is a load of crap' - that is a whole other debate, and it may even be crappy indeed, but for reasons that you may not have had in mind. We'll leave that for another thread and another week...

 

By the way, the purpose of me discussing this with you is not to come to the "right answer" or sway your views. I find these debates helpful in clarifying my own position on these very thorny issues, and perhaps you will as well.

[compassionategirl]

Anyone who would willingly associate themselves with ELF/ALF deserves to rot in prison. Being that the FBI considers them the #1 domestic terrorist organization, this jackass is lucky he didn't get himself hauled off to Gitmo.

 

Hmm, I originally typed a very different response but changed my mind thinking that maybe I should make more of an effort to try and understand where you are coming from with this vitriol you have for direct action. Admittedly, it isnt easy.

 

We get that you have contempt for direct action that seeks to rescue suffering and tortured animals by breaking into labs and mink farms to liberate them, even where there are no injuries caused to humans and animals as a result of the ALF raid (which is the Creedo of ALF by the way - not to cause any injuries to animals, human and non).

 

We get, in other words, that you despise activists that actually liberate animals from their torture and suffering by breaking into private property (or should I say into private torture chambers).

 

My question to you is: Do you have as much contempt for the person that is causing the animal suffering which compelled the ALF raid in the first place? In other words, to use an example, do you have as much contempt for the mink farmer as you appear to have for the mink rescuer/liberator?

 

And by the way, what the FBI thinks should hardly be our moral compass. The FBI has also described Julia Butterfly Hill's action of living on a tree for two years to save it and the surrounding rainforrest as terrorist in nature.

 

 

How you can feel contempt for those who actually rescue animals (and yes, in doing so, break in to labs and fur farms, etc) is beyond me. I find it hard to believe that anybody who cared about the immediate and very real suffering of these animals could have contempt for their rescuers in circumstances where the rescuers' only crime is the violation of private property rights (obviously I am not talking about Eric here, in light of Finn's post, but ALF actions more generally that meets that criteria). I am not saying that all ethical vegans agree with direct action, but very few I would say actually loathe the animal rescuers like you clearly do, simply for the reason that they have broken some laws in order to gain access to these victims that suffer behind the closed and locked doors of private torture chambers. Most can at least sympathize and understand the overwhelming magnitude of the suffering that motivates and pushes people to take such direct action.

 

SO anyway to repeat the question: Do you harbour as much contempt for, say, the mink farmer/torturer as you do for the mink liberator? Do you think the mink farmer should also "rot in jail" to use your words? Or do you better relate to the mink farmer/torturer than you do the mink liberater?

[willpeavy]

I think people who want to burn buildings down should go to prison. If everyone were allowed to burn something down anytime it didn't agree with their political beliefs then our society would go down the toilet. I think fur farms should be outlawed too

[compassionategirl]

I think people who want to burn buildings down should go to prison. If everyone were allowed to burn something down anytime it didn't agree with their political beliefs then our society would go down the toilet. I think fur farms should be outlawed too

 

A reasonable position. I especially like the last part.

 

But I didnt have in mind "burning down buildings". More like just breaking into mink farms and simply rescuing the minks, and breaking the machinary that say is what genitally electrocutes them.

 

At any rate, if your position is the same, it is still reasonable I think. What I have trouble grasping is HATRED for animal liberators that is much stronger than contempt for say the bastards that vaginally or anally elecrtrocute animals to sell their fur, club seals for sadistic pleasure, torture animals in laboratories where say non animal research methods exist as alternatives, etc.

 

Note that this was the question (originally posed to SKF, and it assumes a contempt for mink liberators and the like):

 

Do you harbour as much contempt for, say, the mink farmer/torturer as you do for the mink liberator? Do you think the mink farmer should also "rot in jail" to use your words? Or do you better relate to the mink farmer/torturer than you do the mink liberater?

[sinisterkungfu]

I think people who want to burn buildings down should go to prison. If everyone were allowed to burn something down anytime it didn't agree with their political beliefs then our society would go down the toilet. I think fur farms should be outlawed too

 

A reasonable position. I especially like the last part.

 

But I didnt have in mind "burning down buildings". More like just breaking into mink farms and simply rescuing the minks, and breaking the machinary that say is what genitally electrocutes them.

 

At any rate, if your position is the same, it is still reasonable I think. What I have trouble grasping is HATRED for animal liberators that is much stronger than contempt for say the bastards that vaginally or anally elecrtrocute animals to sell their fur, club seals for sadistic pleasure, torture animals in laboratories where say non animal research methods exist as alternatives, etc.

 

Note that this was the question (originally posed to SKF, and it assumes a contempt for mink liberators and the like):

 

Do you harbour as much contempt for, say, the mink farmer/torturer as you do for the mink liberator? Do you think the mink farmer should also "rot in jail" to use your words? Or do you better relate to the mink farmer/torturer than you do the mink liberater?

 

ELF/ALF and other eco-terrorist organizations don't just 'free' animals. They burn buildings, destroy property and have been known to utilize explosive devises. They are terrorists plain and simple. That type of action is not acceptable under ANY circumstance. They claim to have no motive to hurt people, yet this asshole you're sticking up for has made it clear that he supports cop killing. Do I have the same contempt for mink farmers? Absolutely. But blowing up his farm is not an acceptable form of retribution. I hope this bastard spends the rest of his short life behind bars. If he dies, I wouldn't spare a second thought for him. The world is better off without sick pieces of crap like him.

[Pure Vegan]

I dont know what I would do if this was happening to my loved one: i think i would go in with guns blazing!

 

mother f******!!!!

 

um, that sounds real compassionate there compassionategirl.

[compassionategirl]

I dont know what I would do if this was happening to my loved one: i think i would go in with guns blazing!

 

mother f******!!!!

 

um, that sounds real compassionate there compassionategirl.

 

 

"Um" , my compassion has its limits, as does yours I am sure.

 

 

By the way, "there" buddy, forum etiquette would be to introduce yourself and participate a little in less heated topics before you jump into a thread with your FIRST and only post so far just to insult somebody.

Edited May 3, 2006 by compassionategirl

[compassionategirl]

blue

 

Do I have the same contempt for mink farmers? Absolutely.

 

Well that is good to hear. I wasnt picking up on that at all - in fact, I dont pick up on any moral outrage to, or condemnation of, animal torture from your posts. which is why I asked the question.

 

But blowing up his farm is not an acceptable form of retribution.

 

So what would be an acceptable form of retribution in your view?

 

I hope this bastard spends the rest of his short life behind bars. If he dies, I wouldn't spare a second thought for him. The world is better off without sick pieces of crap like him.

 

Whether or not he stays and "rots" in prison is one issue. What he eats while he is there is another. When people eat vegan - any and all people- the animals win. When they dont eat vegan, the animals lose (as Liz fortunately reminded us of). And so being on the animals' side, I hope he eats vegan, no matter where he is, jail or not.

 

 

[Tarz]

Well of course I don't support cop killing, a desire to kill a policeman is not actually the same thing as killing a policeman.