Where did my arms go?

[Raw Ambition]

I agree! a MUCH larger percentage of arm size is the triceps!

 

Do lots of DIPS!!! my arms are huge because of the constant stimulation from dips. And oddly enough, I have large biceps despite not doing any direct bicep work... must be all the chinups I'm doing too!!

Really? I worked up to 350 chins in an hour and my arms shrunk from the lack of direct work. I'm hitting them again with curls and hopefully I'll get them back up to 17 inches pretty soon.

 

 

Ahh!! that's the problem right there!! you're focusing on endurance (by increasing the number of reps you're doing) Have you tried weighted chinups?? strap a 25 lb. plate to your waist and start pulling. Even if all you get is 1 rep at first, keep at it, your arms will GROW

[Raw Ambition]

I do also disagree that high volume equals progress, as in most cases it doesn't. You cannot equate lifting to running or other CV exercises as the demands on the body are very different. In order to get big/strong you have to eat and rest and train occasionally. When I went up to Markinch in Fife a few months back, Big Al (one of Scotlands strongest men, and a mass monster too) recommended 2-3 training sessions a week and that's it. High volume just isn't ideal for growing significant amounts of muscle. You grow when you rest, not whilst training.

 

Jonathan

 

I have to agree with Jon, high volume training is not the way to go. "More is not better, better is better" What I'm a big fan of is high frequency training. I train every day, the 4 major compound lifts alternating 2 per day. but I've cut back the total VOLUME of my workouts.

 

Let me pose this question, what do you think is better?

 

A. 5 sets of 10 reps once every 5 days

 

OR

 

B. 1 set of 10 reps every day for 5 days

 

at the end of 5 days, the same amount of work has been done, except doing ony 1 set will leave you feeling STRONG and refreshed, whereas, doing 5 sets will leave you fatigued and sore. which one do you prefer?

[jonathan]

Well you wouldn't work out just once every 5 days now would you?

 

I'm not a fan of high frequency training either if I'm honest. I fail to see the point of it. I think that there are few lifts where this actually helps. At the end of the day, you make more progress giving your body adequate rest and training infrequently. I wish that I could train more than I do as I love it, but I would burn out so I can't.

 

Jonathan

[Raw Ambition]

I didn't mean workout once every 5 days, but with certain programs and certain exercises, one could go 5 days between doing the same exercises, i.e. "arm day" or "legs day"

 

Oh, you would most definately burn out if you trained the same way you do now, more frequently. BUT if you cut back on the total volume of your training each session, you can train more frequently. And the more frequent you train at something, the better you get at it.

[Jay]

I do also disagree that high volume equals progress, as in most cases it doesn't. You cannot equate lifting to running or other CV exercises as the demands on the body are very different. In order to get big/strong you have to eat and rest and train occasionally. When I went up to Markinch in Fife a few months back, Big Al (one of Scotlands strongest men, and a mass monster too) recommended 2-3 training sessions a week and that's it. High volume just isn't ideal for growing significant amounts of muscle. You grow when you rest, not whilst training.

 

Jonathan

Jonathan, what percentage of men who strength train can bench 400? 1%? Now of that one percent, what percent don't take drugs or weigh at least 350?

 

Conventinal strength training knowledge is a huge steaming pile of shit. Not go back to the predrug era and look at the strongest men.

 

Paul Anderson-literally lifted all day.

Roy Hilligenn-spent more than 3 hours per day on average lifting.

Doug Hepburn(first man to bench 500)-did 3, 2 hour and 30 minute bench workouts per week.

Isaac Nesser(74inch chest in Guiness Record books and vociferously antidrug)-trained 4 to 6 hours a day 8 to 10 days in a row then took a couple days off.

Marvin Eder(third to bench 500)-benched every single day

Etc.

 

Now what about Big Al? How fat is Big Al? How much drugs does he take? What about the other 99.9% of people who already are following his advice and haven't gotten anywhere in years?

[Jay]

Ahh!! that's the problem right there!! you're focusing on endurance (by increasing the number of reps you're doing) Have you tried weighted chinups?? strap a 25 lb. plate to your waist and start pulling. Even if all you get is 1 rep at first, keep at it, your arms will GROW

I've been lifting for 16 years and have spent years doing short high intensity workouts. I've done weighted chins for reps with 100+ pounds strapped to me.

[Jay]

I have to agree with Jon, high volume training is not the way to go. "More is not better, better is better" What I'm a big fan of is high frequency training. I train every day, the 4 major compound lifts alternating 2 per day. but I've cut back the total VOLUME of my workouts.

 

Let me pose this question, what do you think is better?

 

A. 5 sets of 10 reps once every 5 days

 

OR

 

B. 1 set of 10 reps every day for 5 days

 

at the end of 5 days, the same amount of work has been done, except doing ony 1 set will leave you feeling STRONG and refreshed, whereas, doing 5 sets will leave you fatigued and sore. which one do you prefer?

Yes, you feel refreshed when doing less volume. This means nothing. Furthermore if you do high volume for a while and adapt to it, and then switch to low volume, you get a nice boost in strength as your body was used to doing so much more work. Most people mistakenly think this means less volume is good when actually it's just a short term peaking effect.

[Jay]

I do also disagree that high volume equals progress, as in most cases it doesn't. You cannot equate lifting to running or other CV exercises as the demands on the body are very different. In order to get big/strong you have to eat and rest and train occasionally. When I went up to Markinch in Fife a few months back, Big Al (one of Scotlands strongest men, and a mass monster too) recommended 2-3 training sessions a week and that's it. High volume just isn't ideal for growing significant amounts of muscle. You grow when you rest, not whilst training.

 

Jonathan

And about the running not equating. I am very well aware of conventional strength training lore. Again, it's a pile of shit.

 

We always here for example that runners prove high volume is useless as they have very skinny legs. Actually the muscles that runners actually use in running are usually huge relative to the rest of their atropied bodies. They don't have massive quads because running doesn't require squatting down till their butts touch their heels. But the hamstrings on runners are often huge relative to the rest of their bodies. The endurance aspect of running is way overrated with respect to simply having plenty of strength in the relevant muscles compared to bodyweight.

[jonathan]

I have not asked Big Al as to whether or not he is drug free or not, but I am almost certain he is. His father, in his late 50's, recently competed in the Scottish Drug-free powerlifting championship and totalled around 525kg at about 90kg bodyweight.

Big Al has reasonably high body fat, but then most natural strongmen at a very high level do. He and his brother Raymond hold a lot of Scottish records. I would estimate his bodyweight to be about 340lbs and I have no doubt that he can bench 400lbs (they have a stone there that is 400lbs and he can load it to a 54inch platform, as well as being able to shoulder a 330lb stone).

 

What relevance is the number of people who bench 400lbs to this discussion? What relevance does bringing drug users into the discussion have? It is actually the case that people who don't use drugs need more rest, so saying that you should train for hours a day is only going to result in lots of people burning out.

 

Jay, you have been training for a really long time, but you were, as far as I can gather, strongest at about 20 years of age, through doing powerlifting. You have been doing bodyweight stuff for as long as I have known you. When I came onto Vegan Fitness your total was 330lbs higher than mine. My total is now a few pounds higher than yours, and I have barely trained for powerlilfting this year.

 

You cannot make statements like "Conventional strength training knowledge is a huge pile of shit" unless you can back it up with your own achievements. The fact is you cannot.

 

Jonathan

[Jay]

What relevance is the number of people who bench 400lbs to this discussion? What relevance does bringing drug users into the discussion have? It is actually the case that people who don't use drugs need more rest, so saying that you should train for hours a day is only going to result in lots of people burning out.

the relevance is that the vast majority of people who train using conventional methods have virtually nothing to show for their trouble.

 

Jay, you have been training for a really long time, but you were, as far as I can gather, strongest at about 20 years of age, through doing powerlifting. You have been doing bodyweight stuff for as long as I have known you. When I came onto Vegan Fitness your total was 330lbs higher than mine. My total is now a few pounds higher than yours, and I have barely trained for powerlilfting this year.

 

You cannot make statements like "Conventional strength training knowledge is a huge pile of shit" unless you can back it up with your own achievements. The fact is you cannot.

 

Jonathan

Strongest at 20? What are you even taking about? My squat was best at 20. I've never gotten it back because I had to change my form because of ligament damage and also back then I did tons of sprinting which I just don't do anymore. My deadlift was strongest in November of 2004. 4 months later I herniated a disc and so I'm done with that. My bench reached it's peak at 25 and has stayed about the same for the last 8 years give or take various peaking effects. Right now my bench is no good because I don't do bench.

 

Anyway I am the strongest I've ever been in my life right this moment at the exercises I am consistently pursuing. Which is basically only chinup stuff. I quit doing powerlifting because of the herniated disc. I'd rather not do that again. You know at the VF week I only reached the point where I could walk upright a couple weeks beforehand. I'd rather not do that again and for my scientific curiousity OACs are a far easier exercise to work with than powerlifting or strongman training.

 

I have researched OACs and for my size I've only found a couple people in history who've ever accomplished one. So if I get one that will make me one of the strongest people in recorded history at least for that particular exercise. At that point, it will be safe to say I can back up what I'm saying with personal accomplishments. As of now, well it's pretty silly to just base who you listen to on how strong they are. My brother-in-law benched 365 using conventional training. He doesn't know anything about strength training. He's just genetically big. Means very little. But still, you are perfectly free to take such an attitude. You only hurt yourself. I mean really, do you think it matters to me? And pointing out you are stronger than me: LOL! Who cares? You're also 6'8" with a head like a watermelon. No offense but people don't all have the same genetics. It took me two years to even bench 200 pounds lifting much like you do now.

[Jay]

Excuse the watermelon comment. I just mean you have a somewhat large head and it's very often the case that people with big heads are pretty strong.

[jonathan]

It's true that I do have a comically large head!

 

Nevertheless, I wouldn't argue that I have good genetics for strength training as I have never been naturally big - skinny my whole life until lifting.

 

I don't dispute Jay that your training is working towards acheiving your goals. I simply imply that for most people it would result in chronic overtraining. It is something that you have built up to over a very long period of time and to be honest seems like very hard work.

I resent also that you said modern strength training knowledge is crap. I mean it has worked for you, and it is working for me so it cannot be that bad.

 

I'm sorry that your injuries have stopped you continuing with powerlifting, but that doesn't mean that powerlifting will cause injuries for everyone.

In the same way that I cannot apply all of my experiences to the general public, you cannot apply yours.

 

Jonathan

[JW]

Excuse the watermelon comment. I just mean you have a somewhat large head and it's very often the case that people with big heads are pretty strong.

 

 

I'm sure it wasn't meant as a personal attack. Would you want a 6'8" 245lb angry Scotsman upset with you???

[jonathan]

Excuse me? That would be 258lb thankyou!

 

I'm not actually Scottish - from down in England, moved up about a year ago

 

Jonathan

[JW]

Excuse me? That would be 258lb thankyou!

 

I'm not actually Scottish - from down in England, moved up about a year ago

 

Jonathan

 

well I suppose the weight increase and the non-scottish thing cancel each other out

258 Weren't you just 245lb a couple months ago?

[jonathan]

I was 245 in January, and about 250 6 weeks ago. My weight flutuates for no apparant reason sometimes and it has been increasing well for a while now

[robert]

Rob, I'm trying to help you out man. You're not listening. Too bad. You're still stuck on the short term effect of protein stuffing. That's why you haven't gotten anywhere in years. Now you can go stuff yourself full of protein and make some nice gains for about a month and be convinced that that was the answer. Two years later you'll look just like you do now. Or perhaps you'll really stuff yourself and permanently gain some fat.

I'm really only trying to help here but I'm just wasting my time.

 

Jay,

 

I appreicate the suggestions. I am listening, but I've just found that when I eat a lot I have good gains and when I don't eat a lot I don't have good gains. So I feel like I have to go back to what worked in the past. I'm always experimenting. I think everyone works quite a bit differently. VeganEssentials doesn't have to eat very much to grow. Others such as myself have to eat a tremendous amount or we won't grow. Big Ben relies on high amounts of protein and is not concerned as much with total caloric intake.

 

I'm just trying to find what will work for me and in the past it was a high protein/high calorie diet and fairly heavy weight training.

 

On another note.....solid work Jonathan. Keep on growing man!

[Odidnetne]

I know how you feel Rob, except I haven't really gotten smaller, I've just been stuck in a rut, do to all the hours at work they give me now that I'm out of school for the summer. I'm trying to rest and eat a lot too, but it gets rough when you have to work a lot.

 

Here's a suggestion of things you used to do though: If you're position with Vega doesn't take up all of your free time, and you have the time, why not try to give massages at a part time level? It's not your upper arms, but it could still train the arms.

[willpeavy]

I can only use myself as a comparison, but this is me in 2003...

 

Great work on those gains. The before pic is not much different than how I used to be, I was that skinny in 2003 as well.

[Guest]

Hey Robert...from your newer photo it looks like you just lost your right arm...left one looks almost the same. Maybe the photo was mid pose on your right arm flex