Butterflies & Bugs

[Tarz]

Didn't know that.

[CollegeB]

Flanders said "Please listen to lovesliberates statement and stop attacking eachother. Even if you dont want to, you are right now destroying the fundament of this forum."

 

The "activists" dont care. They are fighting for change, trying to make this world a better place. And pissing off vegans from their own forum is a change...I mean making the world a better place. (thats a wink of sarcasm if you cannot tell)

Edited July 13, 2006 by CollegeB

[Tarz]

Barrylove - not sure if you will ever read this, but no matter how inflamed and heated argument gets, there is no need to accuse someone of acting childish by asking their age.

 

CG - If you allege that a fellow vegan is possibly an apologist for animal exploitation then they will strongly react, as would you if someone levelled the same accusation as you.

 

Peace to all.

 

Tarz. x

[willpeavy]

I think the important thing is that all the negativity in this thread is pretty rare around here. For the most part the vbb.com forum is positive. I'd say this forum is probably more positive than 90% of the discussion boards out there. So I think everyone involved around here is doing a good job. Nobody is perfect, you just do the best you can.

[robert]

Thanks Will. Yeah, we've only had a few threads go bad, but in general this has been a very friendly, open, welcoming and supportive place.

 

I'm glad that others recognize that too. For the first 6 months I was pretty quiet about that, now I'm a little more "vocal" in making sure we maintain that atmosphere. But even when I was quiet about it, we set the tone for the peacefullness and everyone respected that. I appreciate it sooooo much!

 

We have a really great group here, super nice people, and it makes it fun. I've already met tons of people who have become really good friends. I actually hang out with members everyday or at least every week.

 

Thanks everyone for making this a fun place for a lot of people to learn about the vegan sports lifestyle. We've impacted a lot of people and one of the main things I hear over and over is that people really like the atmosphere here.

 

As always, thanks everyone for the support.

[Jay]

When you belong to any "group" it's important that when you see something wrong you take the time to voice your opinion that it's wrong, otherwise the "group" will turn into a very ugly thing. I have unfortunately seen this very clearly in other groups where certain people were afraid to rock the boat when they disagreed with something. Instead they just realized there was less and less reason to bother being involved there and eventually left; the leftover group being a nasty embarrassing thing.

 

So with respect to this let me just say that it was completely out of line to go after BigBwi in the manner that the one poster did. And I'm surprised that Alex actually agreed wtih him. I'd hope enough people would disagree with those such sentiments that BB would stay around and this group won't eventually deform like many others have.

[flex24]

flex24 wrote:

It is definitely a shame. dont know how can be posted that in a vegan forum. Teaching her daughter to be speciesist. What a shame.

If vegans do that. What can be done by not-vegans?

 

 

I e-mailed with Big and he made his point of view totally clear. For him it is not about how vegan/speciesist someone is (This discussion above takes place in every vegan forum, I guess).

From his point of view (and I agree with him in this matter) involving his daughter resp. the way he brings her up was a big mistake. This offensive language used above is not the kind of language usually used in this forum. The kindness and respect of the vbb&f-members towards eachother is more important than expressing ones anger.

 

Big again and again said that he did not want to offend anyone. He was nice and full of respect. Learn from him instead of calling him a bad father.

 

I apologize with Bigwii and I will consider his conseil (GET A LIFE!! and do something more productive) and also apologize with you.

 

Anyway I should say that his interpretation was very far. I have not said he was a bad father. In fact teaching someone to be speciesist is not to be a bad father (at least for me) because being speciesist is not a problem for the son or daughter but for the non-human animals. In my view being a good father is to do what the majority do (love their children) so I have never said Bigwii is a bad father.

 

Nevertheless I regret that instead of giving arguments for maintain one position many times people say: I disagree period. Respect my position.

 

I dont know if I have the true but I know that there is one true and that two humans with opposite views can´t not have reason at the same time. One of them must be wrong and maybe both. But if there is a negative to argue we will never know....

 

And finally you have reason when you say that Bigwii said that he didnt want to offend anybody. The problem is that I reply him that the offense is not for the people who post here but for the BUTTERFLIES. In fact, I have never feel offended in this forum.

[Daywalker]

Whoa, a few days not online and now this!

 

It's surprising and sad to me how this thread developed. I would have thought it's possible to utter one's opinion and discuss matters without anyone being offended.

I certainly never intended to hurt someone, and i'm quite sure that applies to the others here as well. I always try to read what the other meant instead of trying to misunderstand each other

 

I like loveliberates posts, and i want to quote this again, because i'd have written something similar now anyway, if he hadn't been first to say it:

 

It can be really had to know what anouther person is trying to say sometimes - "online" communications like this can make it even harder. It must be harder still for those of you here for whom English is not your primary language... I know that I would probably not do very well trying to share my thoughts and opinions in español or deutsch!

 

instead keep my mind clear and my heart open so that I can express what I want to say and hear what the other person is saying... No matter how much I may dislike or disagree with what someone else says, I try to be thoughtful in my replies and to speak out against ideas or behaviors, NOT the person or people!

 

- No one here or anyone else is always going to agree with you or me or anyone on everything. It's GOOD to disagree, to debate - even to argue - but we can and should do so with respect and compassion for the other person/people.

 

- Unless/until proven beyond any reasonable doubt, it's best to assume that the other person means well.

Perfectly put

 

 

Just to clarify my first post:

To me, it is obvious that the butterflies didn't die by accident, but were hunted in order to be collected and shown in the exhibition. Therefore, i was surprised that a fellow vegan would support such an exhibition. Especially as i know Bigbwii as a compassionate person. It's excusable to support exploitation due to ignorance (to some degree), but after learning the facts, i would have expected him to say something like: oops, damn, i'll surely never go there again, thank you for letting me know.

 

I never judge on people, that's contrary to my spiritual view on the world. I just decide for me. If i sound as if judging, you either get me wrong or it's my bad English. I only try to voice my opinion. I have to admit that sometimes i don't take enough time for that, and just type a sentence or two, where ten times as much would be scarce

 

I have no time and energy left to reply to everything else said in this thread

 

To sum it up, i agree with Flex24 (who puts his opinion very clear and careful) and CG.

I still don't understand why people get offended so easily. This is, after all, a vegan board. And of course there will be discussion.

[Bigbwii]

I think the point you guys missed was that NO butterflies were killed for that exhibition ....the dead one's were donated by an elderly gentleman from his old collection....

 

If I had thought that any were killed for that exhibition then no I would not have gone or taken my daughter there, as it is not setting a good example and I just don't want to be around things like that....

 

So yes I was shocked at the reaction of some of you....but enough said about that....we'll just agree to dissagree on this....

 

I got some work to do....

[flex24]

I knew that the butterflies weren´t killed specifically for the exhibition. As Daywalker pointed the problem is the support. Is like, for example, find a dead deer in the forest and take him to a family meal for eating him. He was dead, I know, but eating him is promote that we can kill them for sake of taste buds pleasure. Or like supporting a museum with dead animals (taxidermia). If you pay or support them, you encourage them to kill more animals in future (for it mean that the exhibition had success).Or more simply: a piece of cow in the supermarket is dead. If you dont buy it, the cow will not return to life. But you are supporting the meat industry.

 

By the way. I said what i have said because this is a vegan forum. Obviously in a typical non-vegan forum my claim would have been somewhat different.

[flanders77]

@Flex, BB and all the others who took part in this topic: I love to see how many members got involved and how the discussion is now taking place again. A respectful language and behaviour makes it possible to talk to eachother even if we have different points of view.

@BigBoy: Glad to see you posting again!

[robert]

I'm also glad to see everyone back. As I always say....discussions and debates are always encouraged and as long as it is done in a respectful way, everyone can still feel good about it.

 

Thank you for all being kind, respectful and open. Thank you for expressing your opinions and doing so in a respectful way.

 

That is what makes this place very unique. Thanks for helping us maintain the integrity of the forum, something we worked so hard to create from the onset.

 

Much respect.

[Tarz]

I think the point you guys missed was that NO butterflies were killed for that exhibition ....the dead one's were donated by an elderly gentleman from his old collection....

 

This old chap just managed to come across a load of exotic, but sadly dead, butterflies?

 

They were at some point captured and killed for this man's collection. His collection then ends up in the exhibition.

 

I can't see what point I'm missing..........

[Bigbwii]

The point that everyone says I'm supporting something that I didn't even know would be there....but I also know that we have different views on this and my view should also be respected as should yours.....

 

Your EXACTLY right in what you say about the guys collection....the damage was already done a long time ago.....so does that mean I'm supporting the killing of bugs just because the collection and I were in the same room?.....so does this mean that everytime you go into the supermarket your supporting the killing of animals in the meat section simply because you are there?????....or are you supporting the eating of meat everytime you talk to a meat eater just because you are there....???

 

Is it guilty by association now??????

 

What makes me laugh is that nobody said ANYTHING when another guy posted photo's of his GUN ....Last time I checked I think guns KILL....guns are also partly responsible for killing animals too...and no of you said ANYTHING!!!!!

 

Then I post pictures of Butterflies and me and my daughter....C'mon!!!!!!

 

 

My reasons for being here are because I'm a Vegan for health reasons and I love fitness...yes I care about animals but I'm a Vegan for health reasons first and I personaly don't see anything wrong with that and I should not be made to feel like there is something wrong with that.....by other vegans.....

 

I have my views you have your views and that's great just as long as everyone respects the differences....

 

Anyway I'm out of this coz I'm just getting mad all over again.....I'm not gonna take part in this discussion anymore as i think I've said all I can say.

 

Have a great work out guys!!!

 

[barrylove]

I think the point you guys missed was that NO butterflies were killed for that exhibition ....the dead one's were donated by an elderly gentleman from his old collection....

 

This old chap just managed to come across a load of exotic, but sadly dead, butterflies?

 

They were at some point captured and killed for this man's collection. His collection then ends up in the exhibition.

 

I can't see what point I'm missing..........

Can we get of this subject, Please?

 

Maybe this thread can get deleted so all the PERFECT people can relax and give us fellow vegans a brake and save it for the outside world.

 

Robert is trying to do a good thing here..and he is, but some of you are making it very hard for him. R E L A X - Whatever point you are trying to make is getting you nowhere in this forum.

[K-oz]

R E L A X - Whatever point you are trying to make is getting you nowhere in this forum.

So let's follow the good example :

Well, this is exactly how I knew you in particular were going to respond.

I am going to try my best to stay away from you and your 'I AM RIGHT AND NOBODY ELSE IS' posts. If I can't get away I may have joined the wrong group here.

 

You.....you may want to look at yourself. I am not sure how old you are but first on your list may be to grow up and realize there is a world out there and it is not only yours

[Tarz]

I think the point you guys missed was that NO butterflies were killed for that exhibition ....the dead one's were donated by an elderly gentleman from his old collection....

 

This old chap just managed to come across a load of exotic, but sadly dead, butterflies?

 

They were at some point captured and killed for this man's collection. His collection then ends up in the exhibition.

 

I can't see what point I'm missing..........

Can we get of this subject, Please?

 

Maybe this thread can get deleted so all the PERFECT people can relax and give us fellow vegans a brake and save it for the outside world.

 

Robert is trying to do a good thing here..and he is, but some of you are making it very hard for him. R E L A X - Whatever point you are trying to make is getting you nowhere in this forum.

 

I think you are the one that needs to relax, so try it sometime.

 

The point I was making is not whether Bigbwii was right or wrong going to this exhibition, not whether he did or did not know that dead butterflies would be on display. I will call him up when he says that no butterflies were killed for that exhibition when obviously they were. No, not specifically so. The fact remains - dispute it all you want - these butterflies were killed for display purposes. These butterflies eventually find their way to an exhibition. Conclusion = these butterflies were killed for this exhibition.

[finbarrio]

I saw how long this thread was getting, but I never investigated as I just assumed it was everybody telling BB how adorable his daughter is.

[barrylove]

I think the point you guys missed was that NO butterflies were killed for that exhibition ....the dead one's were donated by an elderly gentleman from his old collection....

 

This old chap just managed to come across a load of exotic, but sadly dead, butterflies?

 

They were at some point captured and killed for this man's collection. His collection then ends up in the exhibition.

 

I can't see what point I'm missing..........

Can we get of this subject, Please?

 

Maybe this thread can get deleted so all the PERFECT people can relax and give us fellow vegans a brake and save it for the outside world.

 

Robert is trying to do a good thing here..and he is, but some of you are making it very hard for him. R E L A X - Whatever point you are trying to make is getting you nowhere in this forum.

 

I think you are the one that needs to relax, so try it sometime.

 

The point I was making is not whether Bigbwii was right or wrong going to this exhibition, not whether he did or did not know that dead butterflies would be on display. I will call him up when he says that no butterflies were killed for that exhibition when obviously they were. No, not specifically so. The fact remains - dispute it all you want - these butterflies were killed for display purposes. These butterflies eventually find their way to an exhibition. Conclusion = these butterflies were killed for this exhibition.

 

Yeah...You right..your 100% right.

Have a great day ole chap!

[Daywalker]

Yesterday night i had not enough time to read the whole thread thoroughly enough and write my response in detail.

I want to try to do that, now. I feel the need to make my position clear - this thread really haunted me since yesterday.

 

I think this thread is a precious chance for everyone involved to learn something, if we keep our mind open and reflect on ourselves as well as on the others.

 

SEE WHAT HAPPENS!

THIS is what happens when you preach AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE.........

I have no idea what (or rather: who) you are talking about. I can see nobody "preaching and lecturing".

 

I'm absolutely with Compash on this matter:

 

Obviously, if somebody posts pictures, on a vegan forum, of a butterfly exhibit, then the question may arise whether those butterflies are real or not, and if real, whether they were murdered for the purpose of an exhibition. This is not an unfair or inappropriate inquiry. CollegeB's post did serve to educate some people on this thread, and if you will notice, that "some people" includes myself and Big. And, after we were all educated by College B, people rightly expressed their concerns and opinions. Something that every board member has the right to do, so long as there is no malice, etc. Considering the nature of this forum, and the fact that we are all in the company of many passionate people who detest animal exploitation, discussions like these arent outrageous or inappropriate, and anything that is publicly posted is fair game and open to challenge, inquiry, criticism, praise, etc.

 

To reiterate, when you post pictures, on a vegan forum, of dead animals that are being exhibited, it is not a stretch that a discussion just like the one in this thread will ensue. Obviously this is beyond your grasp, however. People have a right to express their views so long as board etiquette is respected. Yes, sometimes those views may not always be what another board member wants to hear, or may seem harsh. But that is hardly suprising or unexpected. And, yes, Barrylove, believe or not, even "we" have disagreements and heated debates with "our own kind."

 

We are all vegans here and it should be possible to discuss matters in a polite manner. Of course we all have different views on things, we are not a sect with Rob as the guru who tells us what to believe

We can discuss ethics as well as politics or economics. We have veganism as a common base, and i thought that implies free thinking and an open mind to some degree.

 

Remember that vegans have come a long way already: there are countless people out there eating animals, exploiting other humans, raping other humans, killing other humans, polluting the environment, destroying the rainforest - and do this all with a smile or a shrug.

Still, this is no reason to slap on our own back. We all can develop, and we should strive to.

 

 

You want to spread the word? STOP lecturing, especially to the choir, and START educating! All of you who hammered bigwii have ticket him off and he left. IF your OWN people don't want to hear your crap, what do you think a person from the general public is going to think? Do you REALLY think they will listen to you when ALL you do is find everything wrong they do and kill them over it? EDUCATE THEM, but ONLY if they ask!

I can't see where we did this. I'm sad if it came across to Big this way, but your rant here doesn't help the situation at all.

I repeat myself: on a vegan board it should be possible to discuss matters of ethics, without everyone feeling offended if others don't agree.

 

Maybe this thread can get deleted so all the PERFECT people can relax and give us fellow vegans a brake and save it for the outside world.

Now i'm slowly getting angry, Barry. You're the one fueling the fight here. With the above sentence you imply you're better than the ones you sarcastically call "perfect people" - which means you do the same you accuse them of.

 

 

One last point:

In a discussion, it's about opinions and arguments, NOT about people. I like Bigbwii, and my reply was not aimed at the person, but at the subject. I would have said the same if Richard, or CollegeB or anyone else would have written what Big wrote.

 

I was actually out to dinner with two forum members tonight and we talked about Big leaving and that we miss him. Big has helped one of my friends a lot with eating raw and just being an inspiration.

That's cool, but has nothing to do with the discussion. I was surprised when he said he's leaving, but it showed me how upset he really was. Again, i quote Compash:

 

Just because we are all friends, are we supposed to say only what the other one wants to hear, and zip up our mouths when we have concerns or objections to something?

 

You said that you were hurt because Alex stepped in and gave his two cents? SO what, he isn't allowed to criticize you because you are friends? He needs to bite his tongue when he reads about something to which he objects, for fear of offending his friend?

 

I would have thought that honesty among friends would be appreciated, especially since you state that you are a "straight shooter that doesnt mince words." So surely, then, you arent asking anybody here to mince their words, are you?

I go a step further: i believe especially among friends you have the obligation to speak your mind.

As i started this post: i believe we all can learn from each other, and do, all the time.

 

Love and peace,

Daywalker

[endcruelty]

i'll just say what i would do and not do..... me personally, no matter how those butterflies died, they still died...... i would never go see an exhibit of dead dogs and cows, so l00king at dead butterflies falls under the same umbrella for me.... to say though that since hes vegan that he shouldnt go, thats a bit wrong, because i'd like to know how many of you drive a car or go on public transit, last time i checked tires have animal bi products in them, so you shouldnt be driving since you're vegan... ya ya you'll say you need to get to work and to see the butterflies you're supporting the death of butterflies, i get that...... we all have different thoughts of how to live as vegans so let it rest there..... he may view it differently then you, tell him your points but dont flame someone just because they're not on the same boat as you ... if you tell him why you wouldnt go instead of flaming him for going, maybe he'd consider not going next time ....... thats it im done

[flex24]

Now i'm slowly getting angry, Barry. You're the one fueling the fight here. With the above sentence you imply you're better than the ones you sarcastically call "perfect people" - which means you do the same you accuse them of.

 

Good reasoning.

[Jay]

It's a valid point that 'hey, those butterflies were collected and killed. Perhaps that's not something you want to be supporting as a vegan. (If you were supporting it.) And even if you weren't, perhaps it's not really so good to share this bit of murder in such a positive fashion on a vegan board?'

 

It's just a matter of tact in pointing this out. Personally I'm not very good with tact so I don't have a lot of room to criticize but this:

It is definitely a shame. dont know how can be posted that in a vegan forum. Teaching her daughter to be speciesist. What a shame.

 

If vegans do that. What can be done by not-vegans?

is very untactful. Really not the right approach at all.

 

That's all.