Jump to content

Butterflies & Bugs


Bigbwii
 Share

Recommended Posts

Hi guys...

 

To those that were offended by me posting photo's of me and my daughter visiting a local live and framed butterfly exhibition...I'm very sorry as absolutely no offense was intended.

 

 

I pride myself on being a respectful person and I raise my children to be respectful to both humans and animals and I don't intentionaly support any organisation/exhibitions that harm animals and niether do I go out of my way to harm or offend anyone or anything... this Vegan issue has highlighted to me on numerous occasions that my views are not inline with vegans or this forums and as I don't intend to change these views I feel that I should go elsewhere so as not to offend others in the future.

 

It's been a great experience being here and I wish all of you the best!

 

Take care..

 

Oh, no you don't, Mister; you're the only other (crazy) raw fooder on this board besides me I've learned a lot from your posts

And, hey, NO ONE agrees with me on anything Don't take it hard; you don't have to agree with everyone here to stay, come on, now, you know that! I do see how you would be hurt by what was stated, though I don't think anyone meant to hurt you . I don't think this is a good enough reason to bail.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 97
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Surely if any of them died of natural causes it was just dumb luck. My mother has a collection of dead butterflies(she hasn't bought any more since I was 7 or so) and I did my research on them when I was a little older. Most of them are far to rare to just run into and find dead. They had to be hunted and captured...many butterflies(although not as rare) are harder to find than most endangered mamals and birds due to their remote locations. If it were purely for education and these animals were picked up as road kill or something that would be fine but its highly doubtful...you've just gotta be selective. Its like zoos and reserves...you may see a exhibit of the same thing but on exhibit is of cruely caught animals and the other may be of animals too injured(normally accidently by people) to be returned to their natural habitat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm with Formica on this one. The bugs were old, and had been dead for so long just accept that, do what you can to stop other bugs from being killed. Though you could invent a time machine and stop the bugs in this collection from being killed... And Big if you didnt know about the death of bugs or their age you didnt know. I'd say try not to go again, but it's your choice. I would assume everyone in here at least walks, if not also uses some kind of motorized transportation, you know a lot of bugs die in the process of both. Let me briefly go into government. Dont you know it funds vivisection and other animal slaughter? if you are a tax resister there's no need to fess up but I'm betting there are not a whole lot of them on the boards, however you are more vegan than I. My point is I dont want to justify the killing of living beings, but I also dont think anyone is so fully, perfectly, vegan that it is right to go chasing one of our own off our forum. Maybe that wasnt the intent (and i bet it wasnt, since we're all nice, compassionate folks), but thats what you're getting so try to be a little more polite.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you eat fruits and veggies you eat numerous eggs and bugs, especially if you choose to eat organic ones.

You're actually telling me that this is the same thing as eating your dog or your best (human) friend?

 

This to me would be the consequence of being a non-spiesicist.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not vegan but I accept it as OK/ethical for humans to eat bugs the same way a lion would eat an antelope. I think we're natural omnivores in the sense of eating insects but not mammals, fish, reptile, and amphibians. As for eating them in your veggie food its a natural consequence of being born an insect...although it would be nice to aviod it. Same as for bugs getting squashed if you or any other animal walks in grass. However killing bugs for entertainment/education and displaying them is a different matter.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I could just say yes because I don't think there ever will be a cure for malaria anyway...same as many diseases. We have enough trouble trying to keep people from experiencing health problems they cause on their own...focus on those and more people will live...by the time that happens(surely never) any preventable disease will have its cure found by computers and the few humans that can keep up with them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is why I don't use the term vegan. There's to much stuff connected to the word.

 

It isn´t so difficult as you say. I define vegan as putting in practic an antispeciesist mentality. So i consider equally the interests of any sentient being whatever his/her species. If i wouldnt assist to a dead-humans exposition (killed for that exposition) so i do the same with butterflies. The fact that I can not live without doing harm indirectly is completely different to pay directly for using non-human animals as resources.

 

Moreover, the indirect harm that I supposedlly do to other sentient beings is not in based in species. In the same way I could do indirect harm to human beings because the fucking system dont offer me another alternative.

 

Do you have to be a non-speciesist to post on this forum?

 

I think that in this forum anybody can post : speciesist, murderers, racists, rapists, meat eaters, non-speciesist, lawyers, etc. The problem is not who post but what they post. And if I see that somebody is posting something that promote an unequal consideration of any sentient being I consider I should reply because speciesism is completely incoherent and arbitrary (the same as racism, sexism or xenophobia).

 

 

This to me would be the consequence of being a non-spiesicist.

 

The killings of bugs is not product of speciesism because we dont decide in function to species. For example if I buy clothes and in the manufacture were harmed a group o black humans, that it is not a racist attitude.

 

In the other hand, it is clear that paying for a exposition of murdered butterflies it is a direct exploitation.

 

For giving another example: it is different that I pay for meat than to pay for fruit and the person who sells the fruit eats meat or maybe exploit non-human animals for collecting the fruit.

 

By consequence then, if you are a non-speciesist (vegan) you are opposing a cure for malaria?

 

False. Being a non-speciesist mean to give equal value to the interest of all beings (more strictly sentient beings because they are the only beings who develop interests) without considering the species they belong. So if a cure for malaria could be found without using sentient beings as resources, there is no problem. But if a sentient being is used as a resource or mean for human ends the activity is not fair because it is based in species and species it is a irrelevant criteria for deciding whose interest should be considered at first. In science the species criteria is always used because with humans there is not involuntary experimentation (at least that is not accepted in theory).

 

To those that were offended by me posting photo's of me and my daughter visiting a local live and framed butterfly exhibition...I'm very sorry as absolutely no offense was intended.

 

Well, the offense is not for the people who post in this forum but for the butterflies murdered (I dont have complete security that butterflies are sentient beings but there are good scientific evidence that they are. So we have to act in consequence).

 

The problem with the butteflies is not how they were killed but why they were killed. Do you think it is ethical to kill someone without pain for making money exhibiting them? A sentient being has interest in life because he/she can enjoy it (by definition of sentient being).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Malaria is a parasite. It's an animal. So are bacteria.

Since you can't prove anything about the cognitive functions of other species (you don't know what it's like to be a malaria parasite or a cow) but still chooses one before the other (ie humans before malaria) you are in fact a speciesist. Just by living you choose your life before thousands of bugs that your immune system kills every day. You choose yourself before other creatures every day.

 

If someone finds a (safe) way of killing all the malaria-carrying mosquitos in Africa I would gladly see that they used that method.

 

If you decide to protest such a method then, trust me, noone will ever listen to you or take you or your cause seriously again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Malaria is a parasite. It's an animal. So are bacteria.

Since you can't prove anything about the cognitive functions of other species (you don't know what it's like to be a malaria parasite or a cow) but still chooses one before the other (ie humans before malaria) you are in fact a speciesist. Just by living you choose your life before thousands of bugs that your immune system kills every day. You choose yourself before other creatures every day.

 

I thought that you mean to use non-humans animals as experimental models but with this quote you have clarified your opinion. Nevertheless I have some points:

 

1) Malaria is an illness not and parasite.

 

2) Bacteria are not animals (You say ¨so are bacteria¨)

 

3) Malaria is caused by a protist (Plasmodium) nor by an animal. Protists are nor animals.

 

3) The problem is not if they are animals or not but if they are conscius beings (sentient beings) so the previous points are only informational

 

4) I don´t know how is to be a cow nor a chicken nor my mother, nor my teacher, nor Michael Jordan. But we can infer based on science and philosophy if any individual is a sentient being. Moreover, it doesnt matter how it feels to be a determined sentient being. The fact is that it is a sentient being. If I masturbate i fell pleasure, if a cow eat grass she feels pleasure. Maybe you dont get pleasure masturbating but have other sources of pleasure. If you are sentient you have the possibility of having good an bad experiences. And a sentient beings looks for the good ones and avoid the bad ones.

 

5) Plasmodium are not sentient beings (they are unicellular) so there are no problem with killing them (as plants or fungi).

 

6) Science is not sure if mosquitoes are sentient beings as are cows, chickens or fish so here should be considered human interest (because is of life and death). But this is no speciesist. If you are going to kill me I kill you first so if a mosquitoe is going to kill me I kill him. It is self-defense.

 

7) With regard to the lot of bacteria and protozoa mi inmune system kills I repeat:

 

a) They are not sentient beings

 

b) It is self-defense (Even if they were sentient)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) Malaria is an illness not and parasite.

Malaria

 

3) Malaria is caused by a protist (Plasmodium) nor by an animal. Protists are nor animals.

Define animal.

 

4) I don´t know how is to be a cow nor a chicken nor my mother, nor my teacher, nor Michael Jordan. But we can infer based on science and philosophy if any individual is a sentient being. Moreover, it doesnt matter how it feels to be a determined sentient being. The fact is that it is a sentient being. If I masturbate i fell pleasure, if a cow eat grass she feels pleasure. Maybe you dont get pleasure masturbating but have other sources of pleasure. If you are sentient you have the possibility of having good an bad experiences. And a sentient beings looks for the good ones and avoid the bad ones.

So the more human-like an organism is the more right to life it has?

It's equally impossible for you to desribe what it's like to be a bat, cow, lion or microb without using yourself as starting point.

Giving an animal more rights because it shares characteristics with you is speciesism. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

In the other points you just repeat that you think other species should have rights depending on how human-like they are.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So saying an animal feels pain (and I also feel pain) is speciesist because I have compared the to myself and consider it's pain only because I have a similar feeling? What are some feelings that humans have which animals do not, or the other way around?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1) Malaria is an illness not and parasite.

Malaria

 

3) Malaria is caused by a protist (Plasmodium) nor by an animal. Protists are nor animals.

Define animal.

 

4) I don´t know how is to be a cow nor a chicken nor my mother, nor my teacher, nor Michael Jordan. But we can infer based on science and philosophy if any individual is a sentient being. Moreover, it doesnt matter how it feels to be a determined sentient being. The fact is that it is a sentient being. If I masturbate i fell pleasure, if a cow eat grass she feels pleasure. Maybe you dont get pleasure masturbating but have other sources of pleasure. If you are sentient you have the possibility of having good an bad experiences. And a sentient beings looks for the good ones and avoid the bad ones.

So the more human-like an organism is the more right to life it has?

It's equally impossible for you to desribe what it's like to be a bat, cow, lion or microb without using yourself as starting point.

Giving an animal more rights because it shares characteristics with you is speciesism. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

In the other points you just repeat that you think other species should have rights depending on how human-like they are.

 

 

Its not speciesist to do what you must to survive, its what has to be done...I have no problem with bears eating fish or any other animal eating something they are suposed to...thats like saying its sexist for gay people to be gay or straight people to be straight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So saying an animal feels pain (and I also feel pain) is speciesist because I have compared the to myself and consider it's pain only because I have a similar feeling? What are some feelings that humans have which animals do not, or the other way around?

You can not know what it is like to be a pig or a microb or a lion. You're assuming things based on your own preferences because that's the only thing you can base it on.

That doesn't say anything about the nature of the animal other than it seems to act like you on certain external stimuli.

 

I realise this and it is therefore I will not call myself a non-spiecisist. I eat the apple even though I know I will probably eat 100's of fruit fly eggs. If I were a non-speciesist it would actually be better to eat 1/20th of a cow than to eat 100 unborn fruit flies. All animals should have the same rights, right?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not speciesist to do what you must to survive, its what has to be done...I have no problem with bears eating fish or any other animal eating something they are suposed to...thats like saying its sexist for gay people to be gay or straight people to be straight.

That's not the point. It's irrational for you to kill 100's of fruit flies instead of of 1/20th of a cow.

You're assuming things about cows and fruit flies based on your prefences as a human being. You don't know (and can't know) what it is like to be neither of them. Yet you choose the fruit flies before the cow. Why?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1)

Malaria

 

Well, the link that you have provided confirm what i have said:

 

¨Malaria (Medieval Italian: mala aria — "bad air") and formerly called ague or marsh fever in English, is an infectious disease which causes about 350–500 million infections in humans and approximately 1.3–3 million deaths annually[1] — at least one death every 30 seconds.¨

 

It is clear that malaria is a disease or an illness (as i have said) and not a parasite.

 

3) Im only sayIng that modern taxonomy does not include Plasmodium in the animal kingdom but in the protist kingdom. Taxonomy is somewhat arbitrary so you can change the criteria.In general definitions are arbitrary.

 

4)

So the more human-like an organism is the more right to life it has? It's equally impossible for you to desribe what it's like to be a bat, cow, lion or microb without using yourself as starting point.

Giving an animal more rights because it shares characteristics with you is speciesism. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

I think you have not undestood my points. I have never said that the more human-like is a being he/she has more right to life. I have said that all sentient beings have to be considered equally in regard to valuing his/her interests.

 

The problem is that I can only say with 100% certainty that I am sentient and for the other beings (humans or non-humans) I can only infer.

 

A fish doesnt resemble very much a human but I consider he/she have equal right to life than a chimp because both are sentient beings and both can experiment the world in a conscius way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Its not speciesist to do what you must to survive, its what has to be done...I have no problem with bears eating fish or any other animal eating something they are suposed to...thats like saying its sexist for gay people to be gay or straight people to be straight.

That's not the point. It's irrational for you to kill 100's of fruit flies instead of of 1/20th of a cow.

You're assuming things about cows and fruit flies based on your prefences as a human being. You don't know (and can't know) what it is like to be neither of them. Yet you choose the fruit flies before the cow. Why?

 

Its not preference its part of being an animal...who knows how many bugs cows and people kill just walking every day...it not speciesist its life on earth as a bug. As for animals and pain...mentally who knows what they think but personally most non-human animals seem to be far more sensative than humans in terms of their 5 senses so I would assume they also feel more pain than we do...maybe wrong, maybe right but its just a theory.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"You can not know what it is like to be a pig or a microb or a lion. You're assuming things based on your own preferences because that's the only thing you can base it on. "

 

Yeah I cannot know what its like to be a pig, but just knowing that they have a nervous system and a brain (that is very similar to mine and yours) I imagine they experience just as much displeasure at getting hit/stabbied/killed etc. as I would/do (whatever the case is). Preference doesn't enter into it. No living species (that we know has a brain) would get very far if it did not recieve input as to its injuries.

 

"That doesn't say anything about the nature of the animal other than it seems to act like you on certain external stimuli. "

I'm quite sure pain is pain as far as the areas of the brain it effects. When we hook up an ECG to a pig and provide a negative stimuli it we see a similar response when its done to humans.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

"That's not the point. It's irrational for you to kill 100's of fruit flies instead of of 1/20th of a cow. "

 

I had someone say to me once that I killed more animals than they did. Their reasoning was that animals in the feild for grains and other foods I eat were killed to get those foods for me. I was interested in her point, but it occured to me that the animals she eats are probably also fed some of the same things that I eat. I belive then that she is not only killing animals (directly) for consumption but to let those animals consume other animals had to die. I think at least veganism is stopping the 2nd tier of killing. I guess we both were speciesist enough to not consider the billions of insects though...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

CollegeB

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you on being fully vegetarian. The thing is you don't (and can't) know the nature of a fruit fly (what if they have senses that from a human point of view are unthinkable?) and thus it is a chance you take on describing what's it like to be a fruit fly.

Again, the test methods that you describe are plausible from a human point of view which of course lead to the conclution that the more human like an animal is the more right to life.

Based on these assumptions that both you and flex have shown, Bigbwii's visit to the museum thus doesn't seem so bad after all, does it? I mean it's a hefty difference in the anatomy and cognitive functions of a butterfly when compared to humans, using the methods you describe.

 

It's at least good that yu don't bring up racism and compare them because it's defenately not the same thing. Using the methods you describe it's easy to prove that a black person is of the same species as a white person. Not so with animals. The test methods don't apply.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You are right the fly may have some sense that we dont look for because we dont have it, then again there are a lot of "scientists" with nothing to do so maybe they have discovered something. I dont really care though. I think that we should argue protection of all life to be consistent because if we start to just dismiss fruit flies etc. all together, why bother to defend bees, and really we could work our way up to saying veganism is silly. On the other hand this defense leads to hypocracy because we kill bugs all the time and perhaps do not even realize it, and we do indirectly support the killing of other animals as well. On and on I could go. So we all do our best. I never did jump all over bigwii for his visit to the museum. I didnt see a reason to, and when I talked to him about it, the exhibit sounded even less offensive. Ive been on these boards since they were created and I have never seen a few members drive another away. I'd rather not see that again. This is a community, we are family, and its not right to go shutting people out. Maybe we should also try to eradicate elitism while we are busy purging all the other isms from this board...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with you on everything you said and therefore I am a spiecesist.

If I had a choice between eating a bug and eating a fruit fly I'd choose the fruit fly even though, through a non-spiecisist perspective, the crime would be equally harsh.

 

I also regret Bigbwii leaving. It's a damned shame, I like him alot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You calling me a speciesist offense? If you think thats what I'm saying you are mistaken. It's not a matter of preference, its just the reality. Its much easier to avoid killing cows than creatures that wander about right under our feet. I spend a lot of my time walking while looking at the ground trying to avoid bugs. I am speciesist to a degree I suppose, because the fact a bug is smashed does not cause me to become very angry, but show me some footage out of HLS and I'm ready to hurt someone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...