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Butterflies & Bugs


Bigbwii
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I'm with you guys

 

I was actually out to dinner with two forum members tonight and we talked about Big leaving and that we miss him. Big has helped one of my friends a lot with eating raw and just being an inspiration.

 

Come HOME anytime man.

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It is definitely a shame. dont know how can be posted that in a vegan forum. Teaching her daughter to be speciesist. What a shame.

If vegans do that. What can be done by not-vegans?

 

I e-mailed with Big and he made his point of view totally clear. For him it is not about how vegan/speciesist someone is (This discussion above takes place in every vegan forum, I guess).

From his point of view (and I agree with him in this matter) involving his daughter resp. the way he brings her up was a big mistake. This offensive language used above is not the kind of language usually used in this forum. The kindness and respect of the vbb&f-members towards eachother is more important than expressing ones anger.

 

Big again and again said that he did not want to offend anyone. He was nice and full of respect. Learn from him instead of calling him a bad father.

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Hey guys.....it's so humbling to see the affection you guys are showing towards me.... ops

 

I loved being here...and I respect and like you guys too much just to simply dissappear like that without saying something but I didn't want to make an issue of it and I also had to calm down and get some sense back in my head....

 

I think some of you know that I'm a straight talker...I don't like to lie or mince my words ...so I'm just gonna tell it like it is....

 

Flex24 ...you were down right out of order towards me...you know very little about me or the situation but you proceeded to set about my character like a bull in a china shop...ranting pro vegan sound bites....all I can say to you is ...GET A LIFE!!!!! ....and a fitness journal and use your energy more productivly .

 

Daywalker ....I was really hurt by you feeling the need to step in and give your 2 cents...I had the utmost respect for you as a person and your accomplishments...infact you were my inspiration and role model ever since I got here.

 

Compash ....I was hurt by you being in agreement also but that was the second time you felt the need to chime in now ....

 

College b...Right on man......I agree with ya....

I think you can talk about killing bugs or animals all you want because at the end of the day KILLING is KILLING but for me it all comes down to "INTENTION" if I "INTEND" to go out and kill whatever, then yeah ...jump down my throat otherwise .....back off!

 

When I posted the photo's I didn't give all the facts because I really didn't think I needed to ...infact it never even crossed my mind that it would offend if I knew it would offend I wouldn't even be on this forum because I like to share stuff too much....

 

What you "VEGAN HARDLINERS" have got to realise is that not everyone is so hardcore and just because others aren't so vocal/pro-active it doesn't mean that they care any LESS than you do!!!! I've run a dog rescue for nearly 5 years now and I've often gone way past the call of duty also I/my family try to help animals of all kinds when we can and even when we can't as you saw with the kittens....so absolutely NO ONE has the right to judge me or how I lead my family !!!

 

For me The Butterfly exhibition was just a free small time thing held by a small time church close by my house...infact the whole point of us going there was because the flier that my wife brought home said that it was a free live butterfly exhibition and that you would be able to see them up close (have them on your hand,etc) and I'm a stay at home Dad and as my daughter had just started learning about butterflies I saw it as a great chance to get out and for my daughter to see live butterflies for free!!!

 

Yes I was surprised to see framed bugs and butterflies but what am I supposed to do....I can't bring them back to life...what's done has already been done....

 

I even asked where the butterflies came from and they told me that the live butterflies were saved from a construction site by the local kids and the framed ones were donated by some old collecter to go up for sale to raise money for the church.

 

On a personal level I was most hurt because this invlolves my family too and if it was just me I wouldn't have even wasted my time responding...I think people with children would probably understand better.

 

And just a side note....You "HARD LINE VEGANS" show such pride in your intelect and throwing your wieght around but what you don't understand is that for most of us in general it's all just too over powering and often hurts Veganism instead of helping it.....save your anger for the people you should really be angry at....

 

Anyway....thanks for hearing me out!

 

I'm not gonna be back but most of you know where I am (check my signiture) so I'm never far away!!!!!

 

It's been great here.....take care.

 

Bigbwii...

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SEE WHAT HAPPENS!

THIS is what happens when you preach AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE.........

 

Now you have p*#&&ed off a fellow vegan...a fellow advocate!

There is another thread I belong to and the same thing happens! Some of 'US' just don't get it!

 

IF YOU WANT TO SRPEAD THE WORD DON'T BE SOOOOOOOO FRIKKKEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN CRITICAL ABOUT EVERY LITTLE DETAIL!

 

You want to spread the word? STOP lecturing, especially to the choir, and START educating! All of you who hammered bigwii have ticket him off and he left. IF your OWN people don't want to hear your crap, what do you think a person from the general public is going to think? Do you REALLY think they will listen to you when ALL you do is find everything wrong they do and kill them over it? EDUCATE THEM, but ONLY if they ask!

 

My gosh! If ANY of you don't realise this and are to stubborn to understand it then you have more issues then we care to know about.

 

I just got on this site and this thread is a real dissapointment!

How the heck can you lecture someone like bigwii when he didn't even put a debate out there? He was showing pictures of him and his daughter for crying out loud!

 

sad sad sad if all you can do is find WRONG in everything. Some people just don't get it..they really don't.........

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Yeah I agree with Barry.

 

I get the feeling Bigbwii is a good papa. You can tell he cares a lot about his family, and that's the sign of a good parent. I think he should be proud of the pictures. He's got a beautiful, healthy daughter who likes learning about the world.

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SEE WHAT HAPPENS!

THIS is what happens when you preach AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE.........

 

Now you have p*#&&ed off a fellow vegan...a fellow advocate!

There is another thread I belong to and the same thing happens! Some of 'US' just don't get it!

 

It sounds like you have some pent up anger festering inside of you toward "advocates", and you were dying to unleash on somebody. My advice: if your gym doesnt have punching bags, get one, because this forum will NOT be your personal punching bag. If you are itching, in other words, to blow up and unleash some venom, do it elsewhere. You have a total of, like, 10 posts on this forum and yet you feel it is appropriate for you to launch such a scathing attack yelling at people with your use of capital letters?

 

Obviously, if somebody posts pictures, on a vegan forum, of a butterfly exhibit, then the question may arise whether those butterflies are real or not, and if real, whether they were murdered for the purpose of an exhibition. This is not an unfair or inappropriate inquiry. CollegeB's post did serve to educate some people on this thread, and if you will notice, that "some people" includes myself and Big. And, after we were all educated by College B, people rightly expressed their concerns and opinions. Something that every board member has the right to do, so long as there is no malice, etc. Considering the nature of this forum, and the fact that we are all in the company of many passionate people who detest animal exploitation, discussions like these arent outrageous or inappropriate, and anything that is publicly posted is fair game and open to challenge, inquiry, criticism, praise, etc.

 

EDUCATE THEM, but ONLY if they ask!

 

Bahh!!!!!!!!! What an assinine sentiment, not to mention one that lacks empathy. If the animal protection movement was to wait for people " to ask" before it tried raising awareness and educating, there would be a lot less vegans in the world, and a lot more animal cruelty and exploitation. I wonder if you would still want activists to "wait for people to ask" if you were the one being stolen from the wild and killed for an exhibit, anally electrocuted for your fur or delimbed while fully conscious.

 

 

IF YOU WANT TO SRPEAD THE WORD DON'T BE SOOOOOOOO FRIKKKEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN CRITICAL ABOUT EVERY LITTLE DETAIL!

 

Hmm...again, maybe a butterfly is a "little detail" to you, but I bet you would feel differently if you were the butterfly who was minding her own business in nature until you got scooped up and killed for the sake of an exhibition.

 

You want to spread the word? STOP lecturing, especially to the choir, and START educating! All of you who hammered bigwii have ticket him off and he left. IF your OWN people don't want to hear your crap, what do you think a person from the general public is going to think? Do you REALLY think they will listen to you when ALL you do is find everything wrong they do and kill them over it?

 

When "all we do is find everything wrong and kill them over it?" Do you even know the people who have participated in this thread, and what they do and what they dont do? Because that is a pretty presumptuous statement on your part. Yes, you are right, all "we" do is sit by and fffind everytying wronf with people adn kill them over it

 

My gosh! If ANY of you don't realise this and are to stubborn to understand it then you have more issues then we care to know about.

I just got on this site and this thread is a real dissapointment!

How the heck can you lecture someone like bigwii when he didn't even put a debate out there? He was showing pictures of him and his daughter for crying out loud!

 

 

To reiterate, when you post pictures, on a vegan forum, of dead animals that are being exhibited, it is not a stretch that a discussion just like the one in this thread will ensue. Obviously this is beyond your grasp, however. People have a right to express their views so long as board etiquette is respected. Yes, sometimes those views may not always be what another board member wants to hear, or may seem harsh. But that is hardly suprising or unexpected. And, yes, Barrylove, believe or not, even "we" have disagreements and heated debates with "our own kind."

 

A few more odds and ends: I dont know what your deal is, but based on both the content and tone of your post, you seem to be an apologist for animal exploitation. I have absolutely no use for apologists.

Edited by compassionategirl
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What is going on here?

1. Is it of any importance how many posts one has?

2. Why do we offend each other ?

3. Big was thankful for the information he got after his post. He said he did not want to offend anyone. So why was he declared a bad father?

 

I really understand that animal rights are extremely important. But still everyone has the right to do his own interpretation. And of course everyone else has the right to tell him/her why his behaviour is wrong/incorrect. Diffenent points of view are not the real problem.

The real problem is the offensive language and the disrespect.

For me the most important characteristic of this forum was the nice, polite and respectful way the members treated eachother.

I think now is the time everyone should reflect his/her behaviour. And if you have the feeling of saying "sorry" afterwards, do not hesitate!

Let us save the positive atmosphere of our forum. It is worth the effort.

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What is going on here?

1. Is it of any importance how many posts one has?

2. Why do we offend each other ?

3. Big was thankful for the information he got after his post. He said he did not want to offend anyone. So why was he declared a bad father?

 

I really understand that animal rights are extremely important. But still everyone has the right to do his own interpretation. And of course everyone else has the right to tell him/her why his behaviour is wrong/incorrect. Diffenent points of view are not the real problem.

The real problem is the offensive language and the disrespect.

For me the most important characteristic of this forum was the nice, polite and respectful way the members treated eachother.

I think now is the time everyone should reflect his/her behaviour. And if you have the feeling of saying "sorry" afterwards, do not hesitate!

Let us save the positive atmosphere of our forum. It is worth the effort.

 

Thanks Flanders. The nice and polite, welcoming factors are most important to me too.

 

As Admin, I know I should do something, but those who know me in person, know I have about 10 projects going on, many of them with deadlines coming soon and I'm all over the place these days.

 

You guys know, or should know that I created this forum to be a place that is respected, and everyone is treated nicely. I've submitted posts about forum behavior in the past. I don't set rules or limit people, I just expect that everyone is respectful to other members. Discussions and debates are fine and encouraged, but attacks will not be tolerated.

 

When the integrity of the forum escapes us, it turns into all the other forums out there. This is a pretty unique place and I designed it that way, tried to mold it that way, and want to maintain it that way.

 

Over a long period of time I've been complimented for looking great, being a role model, etc. I've heard it so much, it is not nearly as important as the many e-mails I get from people saying how much they appreciate the friendlieness, and the family-type supportive atmosphere there is here on our community forum.

 

As far as the forum goes, that is what means the most to me. This place is meant to be welcoming and fun with great information, inspriring stories and provide opportunities to make friends, meet up in person and learn.

 

I know "I" lack assertiveness, I'm too much of a nice guy. I'm probably the nicest guy most of you know (who have met me). I don't want to have to change that, but I might to maintain the integrity of the forum and keep it the way it was designed to be.

 

Future individual attacks on other members, by members, may find themselves having a hard time logging in because they may be asked to leave. I hope we don't get to that point.

 

Now I have to go to sleep because I have no idea what tomorrow's workload will bring.

 

Thanks, and please respect this place.

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Big,

When I read that your reaction to what Alex and I said was leaving the forum, I was shocked and frankly, too annoyed to respond promptly. As you point out, Alex is your friend, and I too have known you online for a while now as we have had many exchanges, both publicly and through private correspondence.

 

Just because we are all friends, are we supposed to say only what the other one wants to hear, and zip up our mouths when we have concerns or objections to something?

 

You said that you were hurt because Alex stepped in and gave his two cents? SO what, he isn't allowed to criticize you because you are friends? He needs to bite his tongue when he reads about something to which he objects, for fear of offending his friend? Sorry, but I dont think he was out of line, and what is hurtful (and shocking), in my view, is the way you later responded to him - first by saying 'sayonara', and subsquently suggesting that he should have zipped up his mouth and kept his objections to himself because of your friendship.

 

As for me chiming in twice, you will notice that the first time I chimed in was to express my at the practice of murdering animals for the sake of exhibiting them. After this initial "chime", you posted that you would still support these things, which Daywalker noticed and responded to. The second time I "chimed" in was to agree with Alex sentiment about being shocked and disappointed at that. Two different "chiming ins".

 

And you will notice that when Daywalker quoted Flex, and agreed with the quote, Flex's accusation of you raising your daughter as speciest was not part of the quote. I dont want to presume to speak for Daywalker here, but I assumed (and still continue to assume) that he left that part out because he does NOT agree with that part, and neither do I. We know that isnt true, which is why we didnt quote that part of Flex's post and agree with that part too! Nevertheless, I stand by what I did quote and say.

 

 

Coming from me and Alex, I dont understand why you took what we said so hard. Just because we are friends, etc. doesnt mean we have to agree on everything or walk on egg shells with each other when we dont.

 

As far as what Flex said about you raising your daughter speciest, etc etc., yes, I agree that that was uncalled for since he does not know you or anything about you and your family. However, since it did not strike me as being intended as malicious, I did not feel the need to step in and 'moderate'. I knew you would defend yourself, set him straight (if you were so inclined), and that would be that.

 

I would have thought that honesty among friends would be appreciated, especially since you state that you are a "straight shooter that doesnt mince words." So surely, then, you arent asking anybody here to mince their words, are you?

 

 

At any rate, notwithstanding the foregoing, I am saddened by your decision to leave. You will be missed, and I hope you will reconsider.

Edited by compassionategirl
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What is going on here?

1. Is it of any importance how many posts one has?

 

Um, maybe because BL has decided to launch a scathing, hostile attack against people whom he has hardly corresponded with yet and gotten to know?

 

Editted to add: And because BL's diatribe about what he interprets to be "PREACHING AND LECTURING, PREACHING AND LECTURING, PREACHING AND LECTURING" is the kind of crap that I have ***zero*** patience left for.

 

 

2. Why do we offend each other ?

 

See my post to big above.

 

3. Big was thankful for the information he got after his post. He said he did not want to offend anyone. So why was he declared a bad father?

 

Ask the person that so declared him.

 

 

I really understand that animal rights are extremely important. But still everyone has the right to do his own interpretation. And of course everyone else has the right to tell him/her why his behaviour is wrong/incorrect. Diffenent points of view are not the real problem.

The real problem is the offensive language and the disrespect.

For me the most important characteristic of this forum was the nice, polite and respectful way the members treated eachother.

I think now is the time everyone should reflect his/her behaviour. And if you have the feeling of saying "sorry" afterwards, do not hesitate!

Let us save the positive atmosphere of our forum. It is worth the effort.

 

Agree.

Edited by compassionategirl
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Flanders said:

3. Big was thankful for the information he got after his post. He said he did not want to offend anyone. So why was he declared a bad father?

 

CG said:

Ask the person that so declared him.

 

@flex24: Don`t you think you have gone way too far? Think about an apology and your behaviour in this forum.

 

@CG: I agree to most of your reply. Nevertheless I think it was not very clever to quote such a offensive post (even while leaving one sentence out...) and saying: "totally agree". It was easy to predict (especially for parents) that this post would not lead to anything good.

Being a father myself I can easily understand Bigs reaction. His "online-friends" and moderators did not support him. Of course I know that if you knew about Bigs feelings you would have reacted differently.

Again: Big felt offended by the language used. I do not think he has a problem with straight talking and hard discussions. He never asked for being treated with kid gloves by his friends. But what he expects from you is not to support someone who is calling him a bad father even when leaving that sentence out in the qoute. You should have told flex24 to stop.

 

@CG, Alex, Richard and Rob: Although I hope people respect eachother on this forum maybe you should think about making totally clear to any member that disrespectful language is not accepted.

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@CG: I totally agree to all you have said. Nevertheless I think it was not very clever to quote such a offensive post (even while leaving one sentence out...) and saying: "totally agree".

Well, I guess then that both Alex and I are not as "clever" as you.

 

It wasnt just any sentence that was left out - it was the most offending one. I only quoted the parts of the posts that I agreed with, Flanders, as did Alex. The offending statement was clearly absent from both mine and Alex's posts, and I presume that before somebody is going to react strongly to a post, they will and should read it carefully. You would think that the omission of the offending statement from a quote would not be so easily missed! But, in view of all this uproar, I think I would like to take this opportunity to EXPLICITLY point out that, in quoting Daywalker, I left out Daywalker's comments to Formica because I did not find them to be warranted in view of Formica's prior post (in case you didnt notice this Liz ).

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Hola [email protected]'s!

 

Thought I'd add my opinions to all of this.

 

I'm glad that this discussion is taking place! None of us are perfect and we all have a lot to learn from and to share with each other. I know I've learned a lot from the folks here! It can be really had to know what anouther person is trying to say sometimes - "online" communications like this can make it even harder. It must be harder still for those of you here for whom English is not your primary language... I know that I would probably not do very well trying to share my thoughts and opinions in español or deutsch!

 

What I try to try to do is to take a step back from things that get me really excited and/or upset and I try to really understand what the other persons wants to say. As you may have noticed, I'm pretty dang opinionated and passionate about some pretty "hot" topics! So it can be easy for me to get mad at folks but it really takes work for me to get past that, and to instead keep my mind clear and my heart open so that I can express what I want to say and hear what the other person is saying... No matter how much I may dislike or disagree with what someone else says, I try to be thoughtful in my replies and to speak out against ideas or behaviors, NOT the person or people!

 

Anyway, here's some more thoughts that I'd appreciate if folks considered:

 

- No one here or anyone else is always going to agree with you or me or anyone on everything. It's GOOD to disagree, to debate - even to argue - but we can and should do so with respect and compassion for the other person/people.

 

- None of us are "above" being questioned or criticized.

 

- People are different! We "talk" different due to personal, social, cultural and other reasons. For example, what is positive in one place can be negative in anouther, what's polite and friendly to me might be rude and insulting to you...

 

- Unless/until proven beyond any reasonable doubt, it's best to assume that the other person means well.

 

- On the same note, please try to be very thoughtful and careful about what you write and how others may interpret it.

 

- If you get really upset by something posted here, take some time off: an hour, a day, a week or whatever time you need but PLEASE come back and keep talking with us!

 

- Dont say things here that you wouldnt say to someone in person, face to face.

 

- Remember that this is a public forum! All kinds of people see what we write here...

 

- On a similar note, please remember that this forum is provided by Robert, at no charge and as a community service. What happens and is said here reflects on him. This is even more true about what moderators here say and do...

 

I hope that folks find this helpful and that my sincere opinions come across clearly. If you disagree or have a question about what I mean, please let me know!

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@flex24: Don`t you think you have gone way too far? Think about an apology and your behaviour in this forum.

 

I am also a parent and while I understand how someone could be offended by it, I dont think that flex's comment was inappropriate or that it requires an apology. Nor do I think that Bigbwii is a "bad" parent, etc. From what I can tell, neither Flex or Bigbwii was trying to offend anyone. We're not going to agree on everything and it's good to talk about things we disagree on - even and maybe especially if it hits close to home!

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@CG: I know that you agreed only to the non-offending parts. But not everyone is able and willing to read that carefully after feeling offended.

 

@ll: I absolutely think that saying

Teaching her daughter to be speciesist. What a shame.
is not only inappropriate and requires an apology but it is also full of disrespect.
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SEE WHAT HAPPENS!

THIS is what happens when you preach AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE.........

 

Now you have p*#&&ed off a fellow vegan...a fellow advocate!

There is another thread I belong to and the same thing happens! Some of 'US' just don't get it!

 

It sounds like you have some pent up anger festering inside of you toward "advocates", and you were dying to unleash on somebody. My advice: if your gym doesnt have punching bags, get one, because this forum will NOT be your personal punching bag. If you are itching, in other words, to blow up and unleash some venom, do it elsewhere. You have a total of, like, 10 posts on this forum and yet you feel it is appropriate for you to launch such a scathing attack yelling at people with your use of capital letters?

 

Obviously, if somebody posts pictures, on a vegan forum, of a butterfly exhibit, then the question may arise whether those butterflies are real or not, and if real, whether they were murdered for the purpose of an exhibition. This is not an unfair or inappropriate inquiry. CollegeB's post did serve to educate some people on this thread, and if you will notice, that "some people" includes myself and Big. And, after we were all educated by College B, people rightly expressed their concerns and opinions. Something that every board member has the right to do, so long as there is no malice, etc. Considering the nature of this forum, and the fact that we are all in the company of many passionate people who detest animal exploitation, discussions like these arent outrageous or inappropriate, and anything that is publicly posted is fair game and open to challenge, inquiry, criticism, praise, etc.

 

EDUCATE THEM, but ONLY if they ask!

 

Bahh!!!!!!!!! What an assinine sentiment, not to mention one that lacks empathy. If the animal protection movement was to wait for people " to ask" before it tried raising awareness and educating, there would be a lot less vegans in the world, and a lot more animal cruelty and exploitation. I wonder if you would still want activists to "wait for people to ask" if you were the one being stolen from the wild and killed for an exhibit, anally electrocuted for your fur or delimbed while fully conscious.

 

 

IF YOU WANT TO SRPEAD THE WORD DON'T BE SOOOOOOOO FRIKKKEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN CRITICAL ABOUT EVERY LITTLE DETAIL!

 

Hmm...again, maybe a butterfly is a "little detail" to you, but I bet you would feel differently if you were the butterfly who was minding her own business in nature until you got scooped up and killed for the sake of an exhibition.

 

You want to spread the word? STOP lecturing, especially to the choir, and START educating! All of you who hammered bigwii have ticket him off and he left. IF your OWN people don't want to hear your crap, what do you think a person from the general public is going to think? Do you REALLY think they will listen to you when ALL you do is find everything wrong they do and kill them over it?

 

When "all we do is find everything wrong and kill them over it?" Do you even know the people who have participated in this thread, and what they do and what they dont do? Because that is a pretty presumptuous statement on your part. Yes, you are right, all "we" do is sit by and fffind everytying wronf with people adn kill them over it

 

My gosh! If ANY of you don't realise this and are to stubborn to understand it then you have more issues then we care to know about.

I just got on this site and this thread is a real dissapointment!

How the heck can you lecture someone like bigwii when he didn't even put a debate out there? He was showing pictures of him and his daughter for crying out loud!

 

 

To reiterate, when you post pictures, on a vegan forum, of dead animals that are being exhibited, it is not a stretch that a discussion just like the one in this thread will ensue. Obviously this is beyond your grasp, however. People have a right to express their views so long as board etiquette is respected. Yes, sometimes those views may not always be what another board member wants to hear, or may seem harsh. But that is hardly suprising or unexpected. And, yes, Barrylove, believe or not, even "we" have disagreements and heated debates with "our own kind."

 

A few more odds and ends: I dont know what your deal is, but based on both the content and tone of your post, you seem to be an apologist for animal exploitation. I have absolutely no use for apologists.

 

Ummm.......an 'animal apologost'? yeah..your right just like you are in ALL of your posts. You have NO CLUE how I feel about animal cruelty and torture..no clue.

Try reading your posts from 'outside the box' and see how you are percieved. WOW....

LMAO! - I have pent up anger? LOL.....tooooooo funny

Again...go look at all of YOUR posts...

 

Well, this is exactly how I knew you in particular were going to respond.

I am going to try my best to stay away from you and your 'I AM RIGHT AND NOBODY ELSE IS' posts. If I can't get away I may have joined the wrong group here.

 

You.....you may want to look at yourself. I am not sure how old you are but first on your list may be to grow up and realize there is a world out there and it is not only yours

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SEE WHAT HAPPENS!

THIS is what happens when you preach AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE AND PREACH AND LECTURE.........

 

Now you have p*#&&ed off a fellow vegan...a fellow advocate!

There is another thread I belong to and the same thing happens! Some of 'US' just don't get it!

 

It sounds like you have some pent up anger festering inside of you toward "advocates", and you were dying to unleash on somebody. My advice: if your gym doesnt have punching bags, get one, because this forum will NOT be your personal punching bag. If you are itching, in other words, to blow up and unleash some venom, do it elsewhere. You have a total of, like, 10 posts on this forum and yet you feel it is appropriate for you to launch such a scathing attack yelling at people with your use of capital letters?

 

Obviously, if somebody posts pictures, on a vegan forum, of a butterfly exhibit, then the question may arise whether those butterflies are real or not, and if real, whether they were murdered for the purpose of an exhibition. This is not an unfair or inappropriate inquiry. CollegeB's post did serve to educate some people on this thread, and if you will notice, that "some people" includes myself and Big. And, after we were all educated by College B, people rightly expressed their concerns and opinions. Something that every board member has the right to do, so long as there is no malice, etc. Considering the nature of this forum, and the fact that we are all in the company of many passionate people who detest animal exploitation, discussions like these arent outrageous or inappropriate, and anything that is publicly posted is fair game and open to challenge, inquiry, criticism, praise, etc.

 

EDUCATE THEM, but ONLY if they ask!

 

Bahh!!!!!!!!! What an assinine sentiment, not to mention one that lacks empathy. If the animal protection movement was to wait for people " to ask" before it tried raising awareness and educating, there would be a lot less vegans in the world, and a lot more animal cruelty and exploitation. I wonder if you would still want activists to "wait for people to ask" if you were the one being stolen from the wild and killed for an exhibit, anally electrocuted for your fur or delimbed while fully conscious.

 

 

IF YOU WANT TO SRPEAD THE WORD DON'T BE SOOOOOOOO FRIKKKEEEEEEEENNNNNNNNNNNNN CRITICAL ABOUT EVERY LITTLE DETAIL!

 

Hmm...again, maybe a butterfly is a "little detail" to you, but I bet you would feel differently if you were the butterfly who was minding her own business in nature until you got scooped up and killed for the sake of an exhibition.

 

You want to spread the word? STOP lecturing, especially to the choir, and START educating! All of you who hammered bigwii have ticket him off and he left. IF your OWN people don't want to hear your crap, what do you think a person from the general public is going to think? Do you REALLY think they will listen to you when ALL you do is find everything wrong they do and kill them over it?

 

When "all we do is find everything wrong and kill them over it?" Do you even know the people who have participated in this thread, and what they do and what they dont do? Because that is a pretty presumptuous statement on your part. Yes, you are right, all "we" do is sit by and fffind everytying wronf with people adn kill them over it

 

My gosh! If ANY of you don't realise this and are to stubborn to understand it then you have more issues then we care to know about.

I just got on this site and this thread is a real dissapointment!

How the heck can you lecture someone like bigwii when he didn't even put a debate out there? He was showing pictures of him and his daughter for crying out loud!

 

 

To reiterate, when you post pictures, on a vegan forum, of dead animals that are being exhibited, it is not a stretch that a discussion just like the one in this thread will ensue. Obviously this is beyond your grasp, however. People have a right to express their views so long as board etiquette is respected. Yes, sometimes those views may not always be what another board member wants to hear, or may seem harsh. But that is hardly suprising or unexpected. And, yes, Barrylove, believe or not, even "we" have disagreements and heated debates with "our own kind."

 

A few more odds and ends: I dont know what your deal is, but based on both the content and tone of your post, you seem to be an apologist for animal exploitation. I have absolutely no use for apologists.

 

Ummm.......an 'animal apologost'? yeah..your right just like you are in ALL of your posts. You have NO CLUE how I feel about animal cruelty and torture..no clue.

Try reading your posts from 'outside the box' and see how you are percieved. WOW....

LMAO! - I have pent up anger? LOL.....tooooooo funny

Again...go look at all of YOUR posts...

 

Well, this is exactly how I knew you in particular were going to respond.

I am going to try my best to stay away from you and your 'I AM RIGHT AND NOBODY ELSE IS' posts. If I can't get away I may have joined the wrong group here.

 

You.....you may want to look at yourself. I am not sure how old you are but first on your list may be to grow up and realize there is a world out there and it is not only yours

 

WHOOAAAAAA..you have to be kidding me! This just added!

 

You are a moderator? I say again, A moderator!

That is tooooo funny that a moderator acts like this in a forum that one is suppose to moderate. WOW! Now I get it. You ar a moderator on this site so you are always right about everything. Hmmm...funny how that is not how it works on other forums, but THEY must be wrong. You will have to make sure they do it YOUR way..OK? Then we will all be just how you want us.

 

With that mentioned I am out of here.....

So, compassionategirl/moderator that means I will not be checking back so there really is no need to respond to me.

 

unreal..that you say I am an 'an apologist for animal exploitation'..you have no clue what so ever

 

sorry Robert, but I will look you up elsewhere

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As for animals and pain...mentally who knows what they think but personally most non-human animals seem to be far more sensative than humans in terms of their 5 senses so I would assume they also feel more pain than we do...maybe wrong, maybe right but its just a theory.

 

Thought-provoking point, I'd never considered that before, something to think about. Not only senses but instinct too - the instinct of a caged bird to fly free in the sky, the instinct of a caged mammal to roam, in some instances vast distances......

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There was an exhibit going around called BodyWorlds that showed human bodies. I really wanted to go to that, but I didn't get the chance. I assume the people left their bodies to science or specifically to this project, I don't know. I also assume that they generally died of natural causes, but I don't think it would bother me too much if it turned out that some of them died of unnatural causes.

 

I believe an updated version of the exhibition is currently on in London at the moment. I'm sure it will be on again when you move here Liz.

 

People specifically leave their bodies for this scientist and his work, increasingly so once people became aware of it.

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People specifically leave their bodies for this scientist and his work, increasingly so once people became aware of it.

 

Von Hagens has been repeatedly accused of using bodies from deceased persons who did not give consent, such as prison inmates and hospital patients from Kyrgyzstan and executed prisoners from China. He maintains that all bodies exhibited in Body Worlds came from donors who gave informed consent. A commission set up by the California Science Center in Los Angeles in 2004 confirmed Von Hagens' claims. However, Von Hagens does not make the same claim for all bodies prepared by his plastination institute, only the ones exhibited in Body Worlds. There is also the issue that the children and unborn fetuses included in the exhibition had no way of giving informed consent to the display of their bodies.

 

The exhibit has also been accused of perpetuating gender stereotypes (Stern 2003). The male plastinates are presented in active, "manly" and heroic roles (such as ‘the horseman’, ‘muscleman’, ‘the swordsman’, ‘the runner’ and ‘the chess player’) while the female plastinates are shown in the context of motherhood, beauty and passivity (such as 'the ballerina' who is actually wearing pink ballerina slippers; 'pregnant woman' a plastinate whose womb is exposed to show her unborn child and 'angel' whose feet are posed as if she were wearing high heels, complete with bits of her feet shaped into stilettos). There are, however, women portrayed as athletes, namely the swimmer, the figure skater and the archer.

 

I saw this exhibition in Cologne and it made me really sad. The commercial charakter was terrible.

And I really cannot imagine how von Hagens managed it to ask unborn children for permission.

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