what a f*ckin ?

[FormicaLinoleum]

I hear jokes made the at the expense of stupid white men all the time. And I I'm a white man, and the jokes don't bother me. I think some of them are pretty funny actually. I think a lot of people just enjoy being offended by everything

And I am a lesbian and jokes about lesbians don't necessarily bother me. Of course, the intention of the joke and the teller matter.

 

But the whole "gay" as insult thing is a completely different matter. At least to me. Maybe it's partly because I am "old" and coming out to myself and others was very rough and being a closeted teen in High School was pretty hellish. The use of "gay" as an insult is grounded in a lot of that. Maybe "kids" today have completely lost that association. But for me, it's there.

Edited June 2, 2006 by FormicaLinoleum

[FormicaLinoleum]

I think that is bad yeah. I don't think you're right that use of language and insults is necessarily connected in any way to what a person thinks about the origins of the insult that they're using. I can call someone gay or a fag and not mean any disrespect to gay people. I call my gay friends fags, and they call me a fag too. It is just... not serious at all, and it is really just a mimicking of playground insults or of morons who would really do have a problem with gay/black/jewish people. To me, it's so outrageous to be sexist/racist etc that it can be made into a joke and just said and accepted as an obvious joke / lack of seriousness / lack of hostility / whatever. What I say as a joke is generally the exact opposite of how I feel in fact, that's how irony works.

Do you think that the vast majority who say "that's so gay" are using it ironically to make fun of using "that's so gay" as an insult? Do you think the original poster was calling JS a dyke in the same way you call your friends "gay"? In a playful, ironic manner?

[Richard]

I think that is bad yeah. I don't think you're right that use of language and insults is necessarily connected in any way to what a person thinks about the origins of the insult that they're using. I can call someone gay or a fag and not mean any disrespect to gay people. I call my gay friends fags, and they call me a fag too. It is just... not serious at all, and it is really just a mimicking of playground insults or of morons who would really do have a problem with gay/black/jewish people. To me, it's so outrageous to be sexist/racist etc that it can be made into a joke and just said and accepted as an obvious joke / lack of seriousness / lack of hostility / whatever. What I say as a joke is generally the exact opposite of how I feel in fact, that's how irony works.

Do you think that the vast majority who say "that's so gay" are using it ironically to make fun of using "that's so gay" as an insult? Do you think the original poster was calling JS a dyke in the same way you call your friends "gay"? In a playful, ironic manner?

 

I imagine that the majority of straight people do have a problem with homosexuals, and that more often than not, anti-gay language does have seriousness to it, and is reflective of the user's opinions.

 

It isn't necessarily reflective of endcruelty's views, I don't know one way or the other, I don't think it is fair to make a presumption. No I doubt he was being playful or ironic, but he could be really angry and could have thought up the insult 'dyke' to use to express his anger, and it still doesn't mean he thinks anything negative of lesbians.

 

I often find myself shouting 'GAY!' in frustration at things which have genuinely annoyed me. I also say 'GOD!' and 'God damn it!' and 'Damn it!' even though I don't believe in God. I say 'What the Hell?' even though I don't believe in Hell etc.

 

If people genuinely want to find out if the original poster has a problem with lesbians, they can ask him, and if he says he doesn't, then I don't see what the problem is. If he says that he does have a problem with lesbians, then his following illogical explanation of why lesbianism is bad can be logically disproven by myself and others.

[willpeavy]

I hear jokes made the at the expense of stupid white men all the time. And I I'm a white man, and the jokes don't bother me. I think some of them are pretty funny actually. I think a lot of people just enjoy being offended by everything

And I am a lesbian and jokes about lesbians don't necessarily bother me. Of course, the intention of the joke and the teller matter.

 

But the whole "gay" as insult thing is a completely different matter. At least to me. Maybe it's partly because I am "old" and coming out to myself and others was very rough and being a closeted teen in High School was pretty hellish. The use of "gay" as an insult is grounded in a lot of that. Maybe "kids" today have completely lost that association. But for me, it's there.

 

I mean it's kids that talk that way though, and I guess I personally don't take that kind of language very seriously because kids will make fun of anything. They'll get all bent out of shape if you aren't wearing the right kind of sneakers. On the other hand, if I were in a meeting at work, and I put up an idea for discussion and someone who didn't like my idea responded by saying, "Man, that idea is really gay" - then nobody would take that person seriously. Most people would just laugh because it would be a ridiculous way to respond

[endcruelty]

maybe i shoulda used another word but im too stupid to think of another word to describe her........ actually people do you use "thats so jewish" sometimes... just like saying "stop being a jew"...... people do it with every kind of nationality and any other kind of generalization

Edited June 3, 2006 by endcruelty

[FormicaLinoleum]

No I doubt he was being playful or ironic, but he could be really angry and could have thought up the insult 'dyke' to use to express his anger, and it still doesn't mean he thinks anything negative of lesbians.

I don't see how it's possible to see "dyke" as an insult but think nothing negative of lesbians. That makes no sense. How can something be an insult if there is nothing negative about it?

 

If Richard is right, endcruelty, please do explain.

[loveliberate]

I'm with Liz 100% on this. Words matter and can be hurtful and/or oppressive. Saying things like "I didn't mean it like THAT" or "It's just a joke" does not make it acceptable!

 

Let's look at this in the best case scenario - you're a decent person who really doesn't mean any harm. That's great! So why not just show your intelligence and compassion by using words that more accurately and clearly express what you're thinking and feeling, all without running the risk of hurting someone else?

[Richard]

No I doubt he was being playful or ironic, but he could be really angry and could have thought up the insult 'dyke' to use to express his anger, and it still doesn't mean he thinks anything negative of lesbians.

I don't see how it's possible to see "dyke" as an insult but think nothing negative of lesbians. That makes no sense. How can something be an insult if there is nothing negative about it?

 

If Richard is right, endcruelty, please do explain.

 

It's a word being used as an insult, and there isn't a reason to think that the person saying it has any problem with where that word comes from. I can call someone a 'God damn onion-eater' if I want to, and it's an insult because of the way I am saying it, but it's just nonsense at the end of the day. Words like dyke and fag are known to be general insults, and people use them just like that, with no connotations sometimes, it's just something to represent dislike, even though the person saying it doesn't dislike homosexuals.

[FormicaLinoleum]

It's a word being used as an insult, and there isn't a reason to think that the person saying it has any problem with where that word comes from. I can call someone a 'God damn onion-eater' if I want to, and it's an insult because of the way I am saying it, but it's just nonsense at the end of the day. Words like dyke and fag are known to be general insults, and people use them just like that, with no connotations sometimes, it's just something to represent dislike, even though the person saying it doesn't dislike homosexuals.

But WHY are they insults, Richard? Do you think that started because someone opened the dictionary to a random page and picked the first word on the page to use it as an insult and it happened to be "gay"?? "Dyke" is an offensive word for a lesbian (excluding its "reclaimed" use). If someone I did not know called me a dyke when mad at me, I would not think that was nonsense. The fact that JS is probably not actually a lesbian does not make her being called a dyke cool.

 

I understand that you and your friends can call each other fags and it's all light-hearted fun. We can do things with our friends that we can't do with other people because friends know when friends are joking and know each other well enough to know their true intentions and beliefs. My friends call each other "stupid bitch" and "monkey raper", and it's funny. But if a stranger got pissed at me and called me a stupid bitch, it would not be funny.

 

But we're not talking about friends play-insulting each other here. Endcruelty was insulting JS for real. Not as a joke. He MEANT "dyke" to be an insult, not an in-joke about how silly homophobia is.

 

I don't understand why you keep insisting that it's meaningless when a word like "dyke" is thrown around.

 

I understand that people use "gay" as a general insult. (I was not aware that "dyke" was commonly used in this way. I'm not sure it is.) But so what? Because lots of people do it, it's okay? I know the people around here don't believe that just because the majority does something and it's commonly accepted, it's okay. Maybe people use and hear it so much that they don't think about it any more. It's just a word. Just like people don't think about eating meat. It's just food. What I am suggesting is that this is no excuse and that people should think about things like this.

[_raVen_]

You're awesome, FormicaL

On this:

... We can do things with our friends that we can't do with other people because friends know when friends are joking and know each other well enough to know their true intentions and beliefs. My friends call each other "stupid bitch" and "monkey raper", and it's funny. But if a stranger got pissed at me and called me a stupid bitch, it would not be funny.

 

 

I understand this completely; however, I still take exception to this type of usage. Whether or not it's friendly, it is the perpetuation of words as weapons -- that is the end result -- whether or not that is the intention. Such as you alluded with "reclaimed" usage (love that phrase; it's very precise ) Their intentions become moot. One is making the words acceptable -- even moreso, you'd agree, by watering it down. It is this continuum that allows it to be used in negative contexts without consequences when the intention is not so fun. It's the same with various racial groups calling eachother racist names, women calling eachother disparaging terminology, branded them by men -- isn't that sad? -- etc. The worst is when they try to turn it around and claim it is "taking back our power"! Right. You now calling yourself a **** is power. That'll teach 'em! Truly, truly ignorant and sad...so many people are so confused they continue to function against their own best interests.

 

~ By the way, isn't the hypocrisy amazing on these issues? ~

 

So, while it's not the purpose to "outlaw" words, it is the desire to make it unacceptable that is the goal to strive. There's not much you can do about what is in someone's heart; but we can hopefully behave decently to eachother and respect our differences.

[Kathryn]

I'm with Liz 100% on this. Words matter and can be hurtful and/or oppressive. Saying things like "I didn't mean it like THAT" or "It's just a joke" does not make it acceptable!

 

Let's look at this in the best case scenario - you're a decent person who really doesn't mean any harm. That's great! So why not just show your intelligence and compassion by using words that more accurately and clearly express what you're thinking and feeling, all without running the risk of hurting someone else?

 

I agree!

 

I'm not gay, but I'm offended by the use of "dyke" in this way. Dyke, fag, retard... just find some other way to express your distaste for someone.

 

How about "scum-sucking asshole"? Or "blithering idiot"?

 

To me, "dyke" didn't convey the same type of negativity as something like this.

[Richard]

It's a word being used as an insult, and there isn't a reason to think that the person saying it has any problem with where that word comes from. I can call someone a 'God damn onion-eater' if I want to, and it's an insult because of the way I am saying it, but it's just nonsense at the end of the day. Words like dyke and fag are known to be general insults, and people use them just like that, with no connotations sometimes, it's just something to represent dislike, even though the person saying it doesn't dislike homosexuals.

But WHY are they insults, Richard? Do you think that started because someone opened the dictionary to a random page and picked the first word on the page to use it as an insult and it happened to be "gay"?? "Dyke" is an offensive word for a lesbian (excluding its "reclaimed" use). If someone I did not know called me a dyke when mad at me, I would not think that was nonsense. The fact that JS is probably not actually a lesbian does not make her being called a dyke cool.

 

I understand that you and your friends can call each other fags and it's all light-hearted fun. We can do things with our friends that we can't do with other people because friends know when friends are joking and know each other well enough to know their true intentions and beliefs. My friends call each other "stupid bitch" and "monkey raper", and it's funny. But if a stranger got pissed at me and called me a stupid bitch, it would not be funny.

 

But we're not talking about friends play-insulting each other here. Endcruelty was insulting JS for real. Not as a joke. He MEANT "dyke" to be an insult, not an in-joke about how silly homophobia is.

 

I don't understand why you keep insisting that it's meaningless when a word like "dyke" is thrown around.

 

I understand that people use "gay" as a general insult. (I was not aware that "dyke" was commonly used in this way. I'm not sure it is.) But so what? Because lots of people do it, it's okay? I know the people around here don't believe that just because the majority does something and it's commonly accepted, it's okay. Maybe people use and hear it so much that they don't think about it any more. It's just a word. Just like people don't think about eating meat. It's just food. What I am suggesting is that this is no excuse and that people should think about things like this.

 

The intended use of a word is what is important in my opinion. Just because the majority of people do something does not make it right, but I am yet to understand why it's wrong. It is use of language and is not a representation of what the person using that language actually thinks about the origins of the word they are using. Maybe I've hung out with more immature people than you, and so I am used to hearing very harsh slang and swears all the time, and have come to know that they are meaningless to the people saying them. Or maybe its a cultural difference, I dunno.... It's when people actually have a problem with XYZ that I am not happy. When it's just language, I don't see the problem.

[Kathryn]

The intended use of a word is what is important in my opinion. Just because the majority of people do something does not make it right, but I am yet to understand why it's wrong. It is use of language and is not a representation of what the person using that language actually thinks about the origins of the word they are using. Maybe I've hung out with more immature people than you, and so I am used to hearing very harsh slang and swears all the time, and have come to know that they are meaningless to the people saying them. Or maybe its a cultural difference, I dunno.... It's when people actually have a problem with XYZ that I am not happy. When it's just language, I don't see the problem.

 

It's pretty obvious you don't see the problem.

 

Let me put it this way: if you hang around with a group of black friends, and you use the "N word" with each other, does that mean that the word is acceptable to use in all situations? Or is it okay if YOU use it, because you don't hate blacks, but some KKK member can't use it, because s/he does? To the 'outside world" (aka: everyone but your group of friends), what is the difference between YOU using it and the KKK member using it?

 

By saying that it's okay to use these words that are offensive to those they are often used to describe, you are condoning the use of the word, and as others have pointed out, associating "dyke" or whatever with "something bad."

[compassionategirl]

I hear jokes made the at the expense of stupid white men all the time. And I I'm a white man, and the jokes don't bother me...

 

It is not the same because "white men" are not, or do not have a history of being, marginalized, ostracized or otherwise oppressed by society. Surely, Will, you can see the difference in the 'offense factor' between calling somebody a "stupid white man" and calling somebody a "stupid nigger"?

 

As I said elsewhere though, irrespective of whether the individual himself/herself finds the impugned words offensive, common sense dictates that it is NOT cool to start a thread on a public forum and name it "F*ckin dyke".

 

Endcruelty:

In short, a little less self-indulgence and a little more self-awareness please.

[FormicaLinoleum]

I understand this completely; however, I still take exception to this type of usage. Whether or not it's friendly, it is the perpetuation of words as weapons -- that is the end result -- whether or not that is the intention. Such as you alluded with "reclaimed" usage (love that phrase; it's very precise ) Their intentions become moot. One is making the words acceptable -- even moreso, you'd agree, by watering it down. It is this continuum that allows it to be used in negative contexts without consequences when the intention is not so fun. It's the same with various racial groups calling eachother racist names, women calling eachother disparaging terminology, branded them by men -- isn't that sad? -- etc. The worst is when they try to turn it around and claim it is "taking back our power"! Right. You now calling yourself a **** is power. That'll teach 'em! Truly, truly ignorant and sad...so many people are so confused they continue to function against their own best interests.

You make excellent points. I agree, attempts to reclaim words will never completely remove the negative connotations or make it okay for anyone to use the words in any context, and it just makes it harder for people to complain when the word is used. "You call each other that all the time, so why I can't use the word?"

 

When it's just language, I don't see the problem.

Just language? Language is hugely important! If you ask me, it's one of the most important aspects of humanness. The whole "sticks and stones..." thing is nonsense. I think we all know that words can hurt. I believe strongly that we should always be careful about what we say to other people.

 

One of the steps of the Buddhist Eightfold Path is Right Language. The basic idea is that one has always to think about the effect that what one says will have on others. People tend to focus on the effect of actions, and downplay the effect of words. But I think the Eightfold Path has it right. Speaking is really a kind of action, and not a second-rate one. (I happen to have the Eightfold Path posted in front of me, and that caught my eye.)

[_raVen_]

.... and it just makes it harder for people to complain when the word is used...

 

Yes, you expressed it perfectly. How much clearer can it be?

 

The Buddhist philosophy is quite beautiful.

[bronco]

I find it pretty sad that some people dont see a problem with using words like dyke in a negative sense.

[Richard]

The intended use of a word is what is important in my opinion. Just because the majority of people do something does not make it right, but I am yet to understand why it's wrong. It is use of language and is not a representation of what the person using that language actually thinks about the origins of the word they are using. Maybe I've hung out with more immature people than you, and so I am used to hearing very harsh slang and swears all the time, and have come to know that they are meaningless to the people saying them. Or maybe its a cultural difference, I dunno.... It's when people actually have a problem with XYZ that I am not happy. When it's just language, I don't see the problem.

 

It's pretty obvious you don't see the problem.

 

Let me put it this way: if you hang around with a group of black friends, and you use the "N word" with each other, does that mean that the word is acceptable to use in all situations? Or is it okay if YOU use it, because you don't hate blacks, but some KKK member can't use it, because s/he does? To the 'outside world" (aka: everyone but your group of friends), what is the difference between YOU using it and the KKK member using it?

 

By saying that it's okay to use these words that are offensive to those they are often used to describe, you are condoning the use of the word, and as others have pointed out, associating "dyke" or whatever with "something bad."

 

Someone in the KKK presumably dislikes black people, and that's the problem in my opinion. When someone in the KKK says nigger, their meaning is completely different to how I would use the word, and as I have said, it's the meaning which concerns me.

 

Just language? Language is hugely important! If you ask me, it's one of the most important aspects of humanness. The whole "sticks and stones..." thing is nonsense. I think we all know that words can hurt. I believe strongly that we should always be careful about what we say to other people.

 

One of the steps of the Buddhist Eightfold Path is Right Language. The basic idea is that one has always to think about the effect that what one says will have on others. People tend to focus on the effect of actions, and downplay the effect of words. But I think the Eightfold Path has it right. Speaking is really a kind of action, and not a second-rate one. (I happen to have the Eightfold Path posted in front of me, and that caught my eye.)

 

Dunno what to say really. I doubt we will agree with one another. I think that endcruelty's use of the word 'dyke' is uncertain in its meaning, if you want to know what he thinks of lesbians, I think you should ask him, and then you can discuss what I consider to be the important issue here, which is; what's wrong with being lesbian? To which the answer is; nothing.

 

I am to understand that some people are insulted by someone else insulting someone else. It all seems rather out of proportion.

[FormicaLinoleum]

Someone in the KKK presumably dislikes black people, and that's the problem in my opinion. When someone in the KKK says nigger, their meaning is completely different to how I would use the word, and as I have said, it's the meaning which concerns me.

And this is perhaps the irreconcilable difference we have. You think intent is the primary concern, whereas I think it's effect that is.

 

I am to understand that some people are insulted by someone else insulting someone else. It all seems rather out of proportion.

The issue is not that JS was insulted. We're not responding to defend her honor. And I know you know that. Our problem is with the use of the word "dyke".

 

Really, I am with Bronco. I can't believe this is even an issue. The idea that it's not cool to call people "dyke" is so clear to me that I don't know why I'm here trying to explain why.

[Richard]

I can't believe this is even an issue. The idea that it's not cool to call people "dyke" is so clear to me that I don't know why I'm here trying to explain why.

 

Ditto, except the exact opposite! Let's drop it yah? Don't think it'll get anyone anywhere

[robert]

group hug

[willpeavy]

 

It is not the same because "white men" are not, or do not have a history of being, marginalized, ostracized or otherwise oppressed by society.

 

Yeah they do. You know how many white men have been sacrificed in wars, have had to work sh**ty jobs, etc and so on throughout history. I mean in U.S. history look at the civil war, or look at WWI or II. We had millions and millions of white men being brutally slaughtered as pawns in a much bigger power game. Just because someone is a white male doesn't mean he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth

[compassionategirl]

 

It is not the same because "white men" are not, or do not have a history of being, marginalized, ostracized or otherwise oppressed by society.

 

Yeah they do. You know how many white men have been sacrificed in wars, have had to work sh**ty jobs, etc and so on throughout history. I mean in U.S. history look at the civil war, or look at WWI or II. We had millions and millions of white men being brutally slaughtered as pawns in a much bigger power game. Just because someone is a white male doesn't mean he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth

 

Obviously I don't think that "just because somebody is a white man" that means he is automatically born with a silver spoon in his mouth. Perhaps I should have phrased what I said differently but I thought the point I was trying to make was rather self-evident. Yes, white men have been sacrificed in wars, etc etc. but the fact remains that society has generally privileged white males more than, say, black males - and to varying degrees at different historical periods.

 

Will, I think it is self-evident that calling somebody a "stupid nigger" is WAY more offensive than calling somebody a "stupid white man" can ever be. If you are going to insist that calling you a 'stupid white man' is no less offensive than calling a black guy "a stupid nigger", well then we will have to agree to disagree.

[FormicaLinoleum]

I can't believe this is even an issue. The idea that it's not cool to call people "dyke" is so clear to me that I don't know why I'm here trying to explain why.

 

Ditto, except the exact opposite! Let's drop it yah? Don't think it'll get anyone anywhere

Okay, so if my girlfriend and I were walking down the street and someone yelled "stupid dykes!" at us, you wouldn't see anything wrong with that?

[endcruelty]

d00ds you guys getting a little 2 into this aiight?? if someone calls you a dyke on a street you keep on walking whacha gonna do start a scrap and get yourself arrested and sent to jail?????? who gives a shit if someone calls you a name ive been called names left and right and im still me and no f*ckup on the street will ever change that..... so every1 stop getting so vent up over this issue and just chilllllllllllllllllllllll