Crap BBC Article - Children 'harmed' by vegan diets

[veganmonk]

Lib - you should get a good laugh off this one:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4282257.stm

 

I can't believe how retarded some of these news articles are...

 

It is like they forget that people in China (buddhists/monks) have been living near vegan lifestyles (or if a temple monk then really a vegan), for thousands of years, and in India, only dairy was consumed, so clearly everyone in India and China is mentally retarded and inferior to meat eaters right?

 

The studies were funded by the beef industry, and also they conclude vegans need to take pills to get the nutrients found in meat - what bs!

 

And people have been vegan for a long time already now, and this stuff is just bs propaganda. Can't believe it makes it on the news.

 

Geez....

[Gorilla]

This is an extremely important issue. I`m sure many members will have comments on it, especially those with children of their own.

 

When I see the words "butter, milk, cheese, eggs and meat", I just think "yuk, ing, unhealthy", so there`s no way I would be happy about giving these things to children of my own.

 

The vitamin B12 issue is still controversial: non-vegans use it as evidence that the vegan diet cannot be optimal.

 

It`s kind of annoying that the Vegan Society says you should take a B12 pill.

 

I do occasionally drink multi-vitamin fruit juice, which contains B12, but, as you say, many Buddhists are vegan and don`t take supplements...

[CollegeB]

Most doctors only have about 3 hours of education in diet, some know about vegan diets, but I think most get text books from the USDA or something. Its ridiculous. Also I think in California they already had a case where a parent was trying to raise their kids vegan, and I am not sure how it ended up but I think the courts ordered the kids taken away. Vegans really need to know nutrition. French fries and salad just wont cut it. Each of us is an ambassador for veganism and should be as healthy and knowledgeable as possible. I think this forum greatly helps us in that mission, so I am always glad to see new members.

[FormicaLinoleum]

It`s kind of annoying that the Vegan Society says you should take a B12 pill.

Why is that annoying? Surely it's worse if we all pretend that B12 isn't an issue and then people become vegans and don't worry about B12 and then they get sick and have to stop being vegans and then go around saying they tried to be vegan but that it was making them sick.

 

Vegans should make sure they get B12. I think it's damaging if we try to deny that fact. I think it's far more damaging to veganism to avoid telling people to take B12 than it is to say upfront that it's an important vitamin for vegans to take care to take.

 

Infants especially can be very, very severely damaged if they don't get enough B12 early on.

[veganmonk]

lib's raised his kids vegan - they seem very optimal to me. what do you do lib? any b12 pills?

 

I've personally never taken any pills, and have been veggie for 16 years, transitioned to vegan over the years.

 

I do however have fortified foods like soy milk or yves imitation meats, and do have nutrional yeast, but I don't pay attention to how much or when I get it or make sure that I get enough.

 

And so theres as fars as I cans tells nothingg wrong nohting for me problems not any perfectololy fine here - not tissuess or brains and nevers of nerves of damaging to me.

 

Joking aside, I do think it's important to mention the issue, simply because many people go vegetarian and will just eat junk food and not think about nutrition, so it is important to make sure they at least think about some means of getting it, but that doesn't mean pill popping.

Edited June 17, 2006 by veganmonk

[bronco]

Why is that annoying? Surely it's worse if we all pretend that B12 isn't an issue and then people become vegans and don't worry about B12 and then they get sick and have to stop being vegans and then go around saying they tried to be vegan but that it was making them sick.

 

Vegans should make sure they get B12. I think it's damaging if we try to deny that fact. I think it's far more damaging to veganism to avoid telling people to take B12 than it is to say upfront that it's an important vitamin for vegans to take care to take.

I couldnt agree more .

[loveliberate]

Veganmonk & All,

 

I blame Citizen Fish for starting this whole mess: "And if you really think it's going to make you ill - then buy a bottle of vitamin pills!"

 

I dont have any scientific evidence to back me up but I believe that the whole B-12 thing is mostly hype and an exaggerated issue at most. I'm not saying that some folks may not have medical or other issues that may require them to be careful about taking enough B-12, or that we dont need some B-12 in our diet - just that I dont think it's an issue that most folks who eat a healthy, varied vegan diet need to worry about - at all.

 

I've been on a 99% +/- vegan diet since I was 14 (I'm 29 now), with most of that time being purely vegan dietarily and with little to no fortified foods most of that time. Same for my wife and my vegan since before birth kids - the oldest child being 8 now. We usually ate nutritional yeast and sometimes blue-green algaes, but *never* any B-12 pills and rarely any pills of any kind. We've never any serious health issues. My kids are healthier than I was at their ages - as a kid I got sick a lot, sometimes very seriously so. Since within a couple of months after going vegan, I have not had any health issues more serious than cold & flu type stuff.

I believe that most of that was due to not eating enough live/raw foods, eating too much crap (but still vegan!) foods, not getting enough sleep or exercise, etc.

 

All that said, I do think that Veganmonk(ey) may very well have some serious issues... He talks kinda funny and cant seem to grasp that we have no sales tax here in Oregon!

[FormicaLinoleum]

I dont have any scientific evidence to back me up but I believe that the whole B-12 thing is mostly hype and an exaggerated issue at most. I'm not saying that some folks may not have medical or other issues that may require them to be careful about taking enough B-12, or that we dont need some B-12 in our diet - just that I dont think it's an issue that most folks who eat a healthy, varied vegan diet need to worry about - at all.

I think that nutrition overall is exaggerated in our society. I think that most of us can get by quite well even if we don't reach RDA on all those vitamins and minerals we're supposed to be getting.

 

I think that eating a healthy, varied vegan diet will provide most of what people need. But I don't think that B12 is one of those things that necessarily will be included. It's entirely possible for healthy, varied vegan diets to be totally free of B12.

 

Do I think that everyone who doesn't get the RDA of B12 is going to have nerve damage or drop dead? Of course not. But on average, it's better to get B12 than to not get B12. I am a researcher, so I tend to think in overall trends and to pay attention to studies over indivdual case stories.

 

I'm sure there are vegans who can live long healthy lives without giving a second of thought to B12, but there are also those who may suffer from not getting enough B12. Therefore, I think it's good to recommend that vegans try to get B12. I'm not aware that it will do any harm to anyone, and it will help some people.

 

I think part of the reason that this issue seems overhyped is that it always seems to cause debate! I don't think that there's anything exaggerated or hyped about vegan organizations or vegan nutrition saying something like "here's what body functions B12 is important for, and here's how vegans can get B12".

[FormicaLinoleum]

Here's a good article about vegans and B12.

 

http://www.veganhealth.org/articles/everyvegan/

[fudgam]

Hopefully people will recognize all the other articles BBC has published about diet and how the average american diet (meat & potatoes) has made an obese nation.

 

Hopefully

[Guest]

Its pretty crazy that all the studies that "prove" veganism is bad are all paid for by livestock/agro organizations...sure alot studies that show that a vegan diet is optimal are funded by pro-veg organizations but there's enless unbiased research supporting us...oh, even if all the pro-vegan diet studies were done by vegans that would be ok anyway because vegans are always right...unless of course they are arguing amongst themselves

[flanders77]

This is so old and biased that it is not worth talking about.

Here is the original publication.

Here is what Robert Cohen wrote about it more than 1 year ago:

Experimenting on Starving Kenyan Kids

 

This week (April 10 2005), the British Broadcasting

Corporation (BBC) reported that more than 4 million

Kenyan people face starvation for lack of food. See:

This week, coincidentally, I received the April 10,

2005 issue of Hoard's Dairyman, the "National Dairy

Farm Magazine." This issue contains a Kenyan food study.

Hoard's reports (page 255) that:

"A strictly vegetarian diet harms children's growth."

Hoard's bases thir headline on Mengelean-style

research conducted upon 544 starving 7-year-old

Kenyan boys and girls (scientists refer to starving

kids as "nutritionally undernourished").

The lead researcher assumed that the starving children were

living in such poverty, that they ate only a plant-based diet

by circumstance, so they were called vegan. One-half of these

politically unfortunate kids were given two 2 ounces per day

of meat protein or milk for two years. The "subjects"

randomly chosen for the control group were allowed to

continue to starve. According to Hoard's, this new study

was analyzed by researchers at the University of California

at Davis.

 

It should be no surprise that the little boys and girls

who were given food showed some difference when compared

to their nutritionally undernourished peers. Hoard's writes:

"After two years, the children fed meat had muscles up

to 80 percent larger than the other kids. They also showed

the largest improvement in intelligence, activity, and

leadership skills."

 

Of course, I do not imagine that dead corpses show very

many leadership skills, and wonder how leadership skills

are measured among children under the age of nine. Do Kenyan

kids with mini-muscles dominate those with protruding ribs

who are, in fact, human skeletons, too weak to stand? Do

the nomads of the North Kenyan desert kick sand in the faces

of those who do not eat meat or drink milk? I shudder at the

thought of skinny stringbean-style arms among the kids who

were not fed during the two-year term of this study. Eighty

percent more muscle growth might represent just six degrees

of separation from death. Such statistical analysis offends.

 

I am outraged that Hoard's can morally and ethically base

their headline upon "strictly vegetarian diets," concluding

their article with this quotation from Lindsay Allen,

lead researcher:

 

"There is absolutely no question that it's unethical for

parents to bring their children up on strict vegan diets."

 

These starving children are not vegans by choice. Their

unbalanced diets include occasional meals of sorghum, millet,

or whatever else is harvested during the growning season. They

neither have meat, nor dairy, nor refrigerators to store such

perishable commodities.

 

Soybeans are not grown, and tofu is not made, and health food

stores do not carry alternative foods because, simply, there

are no health food stores or Trader Joe outlets for those who

continue to starve to death in Kenya. Is this the sort of absurd

science that humankind needs to consider? Take the research

funds and just feed the damned children. Forgive me. Take the

money and feed the children who have been damned.

 

Thanks to Lindsay, the unfeeling scientist who jumps to

unvegetarian-like conclusions. Fact is, this same Uinversity of

California professor is also the Dirctor of the United States

Department of Agriculture's Western Human Nutrition Research

Center, something Hoard's editors failed to reveal.

 

Contact Dr. Lindsay Allen

 

[email protected]

Phone: (530) 752-5276

 

Thanks to the dairy industry for supporting and promoting such

painful and unscientifically-based assumptions. When speaking of

ethics, what does it take for a group of scientists to perform

a clinical trial upon starving children during a two year period,

and not become morally outraged enough to immediately end such

an experiment and come to the rescue of underage African human

experimental subjects who were arbitrarily chosen to waste away

and die?

 

Robert Cohen

http://www.notmilk.com

 

Lindsay Allen`s job is to di studies for the meat/dairy industry.

PERIOD

[veganmonk]

It is so old, but when people search BBC for vegan, this is what kind of garbage they find, and forward to me to debate it

[willpeavy]

Everyone, vegan or not, should supplement with B12. I won't even debate this. Just take your vitamins!

[Guest]

Just eat spirulina its got like 350% RDA...if you don't absorb as much who cares there's 350% of of what you need in there...and use nutritional yeast(mine has 130% a scoop)...b12 is a happy side effect...I think I use about 2-3 dry oz scoops every day...yum yum

[Kathryn]

It`s kind of annoying that the Vegan Society says you should take a B12 pill.

Why is that annoying? Surely it's worse if we all pretend that B12 isn't an issue and then people become vegans and don't worry about B12 and then they get sick and have to stop being vegans and then go around saying they tried to be vegan but that it was making them sick.

 

Vegans should make sure they get B12. I think it's damaging if we try to deny that fact. I think it's far more damaging to veganism to avoid telling people to take B12 than it is to say upfront that it's an important vitamin for vegans to take care to take.

I agree!

Only if you are growing your own food, in organic soil, and not washing it really well, are you going to get much B12 without supplementing. That doesn't mean that veganism isn't natural, but that in our modern world, we don't get the B12 from the soil or from drinking out of lakes and streams.

 

B12 deficiency is a very real risk, and from seeing how beneficial B12 can be to the nerves (after treating my diabetic cat with neuropathy by using methylcobalamin), I can only imagine the negative effects of a deficiency.

[Kathryn]

I've personally never taken any pills, and have been veggie for 16 years, transitioned to vegan over the years.

 

I do however have fortified foods like soy milk or yves imitation meats, and do have nutrional yeast, but I don't pay attention to how much or when I get it or make sure that I get enough.

 

And so theres as fars as I cans tells nothingg wrong nohting for me problems not any perfectololy fine here - not tissuess or brains and nevers of nerves of damaging to me.

 

 

Well, you may not be taking pills, but you are supplementing with B12 by taking the fortified foods.

I don't see a big difference between the two.

Either way works to get sufficient B12.

[Kathryn]

Just eat spirulina its got like 350% RDA...if you don't absorb as much who cares there's 350% of of what you need in there...and use nutritional yeast(mine has 130% a scoop)...b12 is a happy side effect...I think I use about 2-3 dry oz scoops every day...yum yum

But does spirulina have the actual B12, or the B12 analog that is not assimilable? Years ago, seaweeds were touted as being a good source of B12. Then articles came out saying that the B12 they contained wasn't a type that humans could assimilate. What's the latest news on this?

[Guest]

Its a flip flop deal like coffee...research shows one then the other and it goes back and forth...personally I don't see how that much of the analog won't allow for it to be created in the body for sufficient use...there's just too much and lately I've been doubling my dosage for recovery on the bike...I know vegans that have been vegan for 20+ years that have only used spirulina for their B12....by now their B12 storage would surely be gone had they not been taking any...one of which is one of the smartest people I know...a lawyer thats well read in pretty much everything you can think of outside of athletics. He's a weirdo though so that could be it...he wears velvet sport coats everywhere(I've seen maybe 5-6 different colors)...even at 100degree protests..so maybe I'm wrong and he's completely insane...

[joelbct]

I don't think that there's anything exaggerated or hyped about vegan organizations or vegan nutrition saying something like "here's what body functions B12 is important for, and here's how vegans can get B12".

 

Makes sense to me, indeed it would be irresponsible to suggest otherwise-

 

As for Vegan children, I am not a researcher or a doctor, but I would think that like Vegan diets in general, if nutritionally informed and adequate, it could be quite sufficient- Though my grandfather who was a doctor does not agree, favoring erring on the side of safety by eating as much variety as possible, including meat and dairy. Of course given what is in meat and dairy, I don't know how one can argue that eating corpses and bodily secretions is erring on the side of safety.

 

-Joel

[veganmonk]

Some great responses to this crap article from ph.d's and others such as vesanto:

 

http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/ncbs_vegan_study.htm

[ALF I love you]

Some great responses to this crap article from ph.d's and others such as vesanto:

 

http://www.vegsource.com/articles2/ncbs_vegan_study.htm

 

Great article!

I am so sick of doctors advising poeple on diet when they only have to do half an hour on nutrition in their whole training!!