Think God would be vegan?

[compassionategirl]

I have wanted to start a thread on thoughts about Christianity and veganism for a long time. Please note that any thoughts on any religion and veganism are welcome, but being a Christian (though not really a practising one anymore), I am especially curious to know what other Christians think about this question. I have very strong views on this (gee how shocking) but for now, I am interested in hearing other people's views, and there theories as to why othe Christians might not share their views. Also, what baout Jesus Christ? How do you all feel about things like "Jesus ate fish", jesus fed the masses with a while bunch of fish, God gave Noah permission to eat meat, etc. What are some thoughts on all this?

 

So let this interesting thread begin...

[CollegeB]

Well Nat i have read some books on vegetarian history and they recommend that genesis 1:29-30 be read. It tells us that only plants should be eaten. I am not aware of any bible passage that directly states for people to eat meat. Though I have not read the bible... There are other christians like the Seventh Day Adventists (active) and the Christian Bible Church (I think they disbanded) who have promoted meatless diets, and the adventists even sell fake meat from their website. There is also discussion that most of the bible translations are incorrect, and new editions are truer to form. The idea is that when terms like meat or fisherman were used for english translation they meaning that was originally in the bible was altered, so newer versions reflect that by not focusing on animal consumption. There is a website I looked over recently that asked if the last supper was vegetarian (http://www.compassionatespirit.com/last_supper.htm). This was a great idea for a post by the way and I look forward to getting to read more perspectives on this, and getting info from others. Maybe I should make a bold statement and see where people take it... Eating meat is evil... They didnt eat meat in the garden of eden and it was only when man fell that meat began to be consumed, so the beliefs of the adventists go. We should eat only a plant based diet to get closer to eden. Anyone know about the quakers? It was a quaker that painted peacable kingdom... and there is a vegan video by that name, just wondering about connections.

[CollegeB]

"Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds of the air and all the creatures that move on the ground-everything that has the breath of life in it-I give every green plant for food." And it was so."

Genesis 1:29

 

http://bible.gospelcom.net/passage/?search=genesis%201:26-31;&version=31;

[compassionategirl]

hey College B! I totally agree with you, adn thanks for posting that link. I am gonna check it out tomorrow.

 

Actually I think I too will state my basic feeling on this and then explain it more tomorrow cuz its like 2:30 am right now and I gotta get up in 4 hours . But I couldnt fall asleep without stating at least one thing immediately. But let me preface this by saying that I have only read parts of the Bible - never the entire thing from front to back every page. But you know what? I dont think you need a degree in theology to realize this elementary fact: God and Jesus, being the most empathetic, compassionate, kind and merciful spirits, would show mercy and kindness to innocent beings. You dont need a doctorate or a masters degree to realize that - you dont even have to read the whole bible to know that God is about love and kindess and mercy. It is so simple and plain a truth.

 

I agree with you, as you will notice from the thread "where is DanDz" in the introduction section. There I stated all that you correctly point out. The Garden of Eden - God's ideal and original vision for us all - was vegan. In other words, that is what God originally wanted and intended for us to be. But many Christians conveniently underemphasize this, or worse, ignore it altogether. What they focus on instead is the concessions God made AFTER the "fall" of mankind. But why focus on the concession instead of the ideal, especially when the "ideal" is so much healthier and kinder? genesis and the garden of eden was the most peaceful time in the history of all creation. When we pray "... shall be done on earth as it is in heaven" and then proceed to chew on dead animals, we are lying to God everytime we say that. How can we say shall be done on earth as it is in heaven and then eat tortured animals? As if animals would be tortured and eaten in heaven? I think not!!! Let us not project our own weaknesses and flaws on God please!!!!

 

 

Furthermore, I think its is ABSURD that ANY Christian can, with a straight face, suggest that God and Jesus would be anything but a vegan if they were to descend in this day and age and walk among us. These two beings are the most compassionate beings ever, as all Christains would agree. As such, how can anybody suggest that they would choose food that entailed death and suffering of innocent creatures where there existed a compassionate alternative?

 

Think about this quietly and honestly for a while, and be brutally honest with yourselves: If there was a sobbing and terrifiied pig or a chicken before God, begging for mercy and for God to spare its life and to not eat it, can you picture God or Jesus just ignoring its cries for mercy and killing it anyway to stick a fork into it? Do not dismiss this by simply asserting that this is a ridiculous scenario because it would never happen. The fact of the matter is that animals do not have voices adn do not know human language, but if they did, they would BEG and PLEAD for their lives. if they could sob like you and I kn ow how to do when faced with a murderer, they would. So get passed the "pigs cannot talk or cry" reflex and undertake a serious self-reflection and re-examination of Christianity and mercy. Think God would say "Sorry piggy but I want to get me some bacon and eggs?" Seriously, do you think that God would ignore the animals' struggle to stay alive? of course not. That just doesnt jive in my mind. It flies in the face of my image and understanding of God as the ultimate merciful and compassionate spirit. The God that I beleive in is gentle, kind, and loving. How can he be anything less towards innocent animals? Just because they are non-homo sapien animals? I dont think so!!!!!!!!!! Christians also conveniently forget that animals too, are created by the same loving hand of God that created us, and loves animals too. They are his children, his creatures, his creations just as much as you or I. And I think that ESPECIALLY evils like factory farming make A MOCKERY of God's love for animals, and that each time we disrespect God's most innocent and helpless creations - i.e. the animals - we disrespect God himself!!!!

 

What is so hard for Christains to grasp about any of the above? I have had this debate with so many practising, spiritual Christains, who all counter my above arguments with things like "God gave us permission to eat meat", Jesus ate fish, etc. etc. etc.

 

ANY REASON for people to keep indulging their lust for animal flesh.

 

Well, whatever happened after the "fall" - the fact remains that Eden was vegan - and it was God's ideal and original plan for us. And there is also a passage in the Bible that says that we should each, as Christians, strive to be perfect just like our Father in heaven is perfect. Put two and two together and the answer, then, seems pretty clear - veganism is one important way of honouring the Lord himself, and it is what we should be striving for, even for religious considerations.

 

 

As far as I am concerned, a vegan diet is the "Garden of Eden diet" and I beleive WITH EVERY FIBRE OF MY BEING that God smiles on those that show his non-human creations compassion and mercy. I KNOW that this pleases him. I am sure of it.

 

I am not saying any of the above because of my biased vegan perspective. The fact of the matter is what I stated in the first paragraph: God is merciful, kind, and compassionate. God made the animals and love the animals. he would choose compassionate over death and misery. It really is that simple in my mind, and when I hear meat eaters suggest that God would choose death over life and mercy, I really am shocked that they could be either that clueless, that misguided or that delusional! Instead of projecting our own weaknesses and flaws onto him, why not try honouring him in such a great way?

 

Anyway, that is just a quick overview of some of my thoughts.

[kollision]

The thing is is that meat was allowed after that and there wasnt really any other notice of diet after that. However with the talks of Mercy, Kindness, and such, this is where Christians are hypocrites. "Animals have no soul, only people do" which gives them an excuse to put animals through factory farms, vivisections, etc.

 

Ok God is loving, kind, merciful, yet we will only accept the parts that benefit us. I believe in God and I know for sure that what people are doing today is not acceptable. This world is corrupt and it is sickening. It is backwards from what religions speak of, and is against morals most importantly.

 

All animals will go to heaven. All people? Thats a whole different matter. If I was God I would not spare people at all, what a horrible race. But then again, I aint.

 

I just cant wait till the day we are erradicated from this earth. Wars dont seem like such a bad thing now...

[Sknydpr]

I like to ask Christian people, when they use the Bible as a defense, if they really think "The Prince of Peace" could condone an inherently violent act.

 

I have other thoughts on the subject, but I'm running late for work.

[Bearsfan5434]

I've been a Christian for many years now and I have to agree with compassionategirl. The original design for us was to simply consume the plants in the garden, which would also be consumed by the beasts of the earth. The only correlation between us and the beasts was that God instructed us to rule over them.

 

As far as the Prince of Peace condoning such acts, in the Old Testament, there were quite a few animal sacrifices...............not that that means much, but still, it happened, and it pleased God.

 

Interesting read though is Numbers 11. People crying out for meat because they were sick of manna, Lord gives them quail, then while the meat is still in their teeth, he drops a plague on them. Sounds sort of like today. People who consume meat are far more likely to develop cancer, heart problems, etc...(the plague). Coincidence, I think NOT!!!

[jonathan]

as an athiest, i believe in the non-existence of god.

 

i have to say that i also believe that christian/judaism/islam are major obstacles to the animal rights cause. whether or not ideologically they specify plant consumption, in their enduring current form, there is the consensus that animals are there to be enslaved.

not until we reach a more humanist state in our evolution will we be able progress through this.

 

jonathan

[michaelhobson]

Think about this quietly and honestly for a while, and be brutally honest with yourselves: If there was a sobbing and terrifiied pig or a chicken before God, begging for mercy and for God to spare its life and to not eat it, can you picture God or Jesus just ignoring its cries for mercy and killing it anyway to stick a fork into it? Do not dismiss this by simply asserting that this is a ridiculous scenario because it would never happen. The fact of the matter is that animals do not have voices adn do not know human language, but if they did, they would BEG and PLEAD for their lives. if they could sob like you and I kn ow how to do when faced with a murderer, they would. So get passed the "pigs cannot talk or cry" reflex and undertake a serious self-reflection and re-examination of Christianity and mercy. Think God would s "Sorry piggy but I want to get me some bacon and eggs?" Seriously, do you think that God would ignore the animals' struggle to stay alive? of course not. That just doesnt jive in my mind. It flies in the face of my image and understanding of God as the ultimate merciful and compassionate spirit. The God that I beleive in is gentle, kind, and loving. How can he be anything less towards innocent animals? Just because they are non-homo sapien animals? I dont think so!!!!!!!!!! Christians also conveniently forget that animals too, are created by the same loving hand of God that created us, and loves animals too. They are his children, his creatures, his creations just as much as you or I. And I think that ESPECIALLY evils like factory farming make A MOCKERY of God's love for animals, and that each time we disrespect God's most innocent and helpless creations - i.e. the animals - we disrespect God himself!!!!

 

What is so hard for Christains to grasp about any of the above? I have had this debate with so many practising, spiritual Christains, who all counter my above arguments with things like "God gave us permission to eat meat", Jesus ate fish, etc. etc. etc.

 

It's interesting that you mention "The God that I beleive in is gentle, kind, and loving." This certainly is not the god of the bible. The god of the bible is demanding of animal sacrafices, the bringer of plagues and demands homosexuals be stoned to death! How kind and loving is that?

 

You speak of creation as well, then you must believe god created carnivores and predators. What worse way to go than being eaten or ripped apart by a predator. Would a kind and loving god create such things? I think such a god would in fact stick the fork in to the sobbing pig!

 

If your god were actually concerned about any of these issues, couldn't he just put a stop to it?

[Sknydpr]

The god of the Old Testament and the one of the New Testament are so dissimilar as to make one wonder if they're really supposed to be the same supreme being. The Onion (a satire magazine/website) once declared "GOD DIAGNOSED AS BI-POLAR", which I thought explained a helluva lot.

 

Jesus supposedly threw out the rulebook of the Old Testament, which should make it unimportant to Christians other than for historical reference and the 10 Commandments. However, many, if not most, Christians like to take the laws from Leviticus that suit their prejudices even when those laws are in conflict with Jesus's very simple teachings of love. (Ever gone to godhatesfags. com ?)

 

There are quite a few people that believe that Jesus was vegetarian, just check out the tract inside a bar of Dr. Bronner's soap sometime. I'm not entirely convinced that he even existed, but I feel that if he was even close to being the person that's written about in the New Testament, he was either vegetarian or a hypocrite. And the latter would definitely make him a man, not a divine being.

 

There's also some debate on the "miracle of the loaves and fishes" as to whether the Greek word was correctly translated to "fish". I do know that there are no Biblical references to him consuming fish, or any other flesh food.

 

Dan

 

P. S. Just for the record, I was raised a Christian by an ordained minister and was fairly religious for the early part of my life, but became an atheist when I was 27.

[Sknydpr]

Jeez, Nat, it looks like I just rephrased parts of what you'd said.

 

That'll teach me not to read your entire post first.

[compassionategirl]

Hi my friends,

 

I have felt like i was "losing my religion" ever since i first went veg. That is because I was surrounded by Christians - good, decent people who were practicing and spiritual Christians, or so they thought - who kept insisting that God would NOT be vegan, and would be indifferent to veganism. I just could not reconcile that in my head with the principles of compassion, mercy and empathy that Christianity (and indeed many other religions) supposedly teach. SO I thought to myself for a while that maybe I dont believe in the same God that Christians believe in. But, I do believe in God and the Holy Spirit so this tormented my soul for a long time. I did some research, and I came across several books on the subject that made me realize that once again, it is PEOPLE that messed it up and got it wrong. God never asked for sacrifice or wanted sacrifice. This was something that humans started because, once again, it suited their purposes and their tastebuds. I have read a book called "God's Covenant with Animals: A Biblical Basis for the Humane Treatment of All Creatures" by J.R. Hyland, and it really helped me reconcile God and compassion for all life. It taught me a lot about my own religion that I did not know. We as Christians have been taught a messed up version of the Bible and this book, among a couple of others, have really cast biblical teachings in a whole new light, and I think the CORRECT light - because what Hyland says is the only thing that makes sense, if we believe that God is the ultimate caring, merciful and compassionate spirit. I have taken the time to quote some of the stuff at length below, because I think that maybe many Christians on this board have also struggled with trying to reconcile their veganism with traditional biblical teachings, and maybe others too have "lost their religion" in the face of these teachings. All I know is that after reading some literature on Christianity and vegetarianism, I feel stronger in my faith and I have a better understanding of God and the Scriptures, but that is just my own personal thoughts in case anybody is interested. Here are some things that Hyland argues. Note that this is a LONG post so you may choose not read it of course, if you are not interested in the topic of this thread. BUT if you want to join this discussion then I ask you to please read it so you are on the same page as everybody else on this thread and know what people are referring to and talking about in their responses. It is really an interesting read and a MUST read for anybody that is sick and tired of people using religion to hinder animals rights causes!!!!:

 

 

"Progressive revelation is a concept accepted by theologians of diverse backgrounds and loyalties. It has to do with the belief that although God's self-revelation does not change, the human capacity to receive that revelation does change. It grows and develops as people progress in their ability to understand who God is and what constitutes right relationship to the Creator.

 

This progressive understanding led to the repudiation of human sacrifices...And in the time of the Latter Prophets of Israel, the concept of social justice as a measure of righteousness and conformity with the will of God came to the fore. Prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Micah and Amos told their people that the true worship of God manifested itself in the just and compassionate treatment of the helpless and powerless, not in ceremonial or sacrificial rituals. The revelation given by those prophets also concerned mankind's relationship to animal life. The abuse of animals - like the oppression of human beings - is opposed to the way of life that God has ordained. And although the world has fallen far short of the standards given by God, the Prophetic Age signaled that it was time for the human race to remember its beginnings. It was time to try to live the kind of life that God had ordained at Creation.

 

Through the prophets, God called the people to "beat their swords into plowshares" (Isa. 2:4) and promised a better world if they did not "oppress the alien, the orphan or the widow." (Jer.. 7:6). A world of justice and nonviolence was also the world that did not abuse animals in the name of their Creator. There was to be no more sacrifice of animals on the altars of God: "I have no pleasure in the blood of lambs and goats...Take your evil deeds out of my sight." (Isa. 1:11,16).

 

The advent of the Prophetic Age in Israel marked a milestone in the spiritual journey of the people of God. There was a breakthrough in consciousness and a call to justice. mercy, and compassion that still sounds in our own day. But today - as in biblical times - there is still an adamant refusal to follow that call. There is still a reactionary effort to make the worship of God a thing of ceremony and ritual rather than a matter of compassionate treatment for all creatures. But there are those who struggle to build a world of peace, justice and compassion for all forms of life. They try to walk in the light that the Spirit shines into our darkness. That Spirit continually seeks to lead the human race out of the violence and selfishness that made a hell out of paradise that God had prepared for all creatures."

 

"The Latter Prophets [whose teachings are largely ignored by mainstream Christian leaders] affirmed the primary importance of social justice, and rejected ceremonial and sacrificial religion. They also taught that homo sapiens is not the end-all or be-all of God's creation - that, in fact, the animal kingdom is an integral part of the Kingdom to come. It would be a peaceable kingdom where "they shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of knowledge of the Lord." (Isa. 11:19)."

 

 

"The understanding that the suffering and death of animals was repugnant to the Creator had surfaced among the Hebrews beginning with Isaiah in 750 B.C., the Latter Prophets also condemned animal sacrifice. In doing so, these prophets were reiterating the ancient knowledge found in Genesis: Animals were created in love and goodness, just as human beings had been. And humans were ordained to be the loving caretakers of animals, not their cruel abusers or exploiters. The warnings against sacrificial religion of these Prophets coexisted with a priestly power structure that was still developing complex rituals for slaughter. These priests were not going to accept any teaching that repudiated the animal sacrifice that was the cornerstone of their power."

 

"By the time Isaiah began his prophetic ministry, slaughtering animals in the name of God had assumed the nature of an additional commandment in the eyes of the people. But Isaiah, and those who followed him, called the people back from their violent worship. The Lord had never asked for the slaughter of His own creatures: It was Man himself who had instituted sacrificial worship."

 

The Prophets also tried to re-establish the teaching contained in the book of beginnings - the book of Genesis. Genesis taught that animals, like human beings, were created by God; that God had concern for their welfare, just as He had concern for human welfare. The prophecies of men like Isaiah, Micah, and Amos reiterated that the sacrifice of animals was an abomination in the sight of God, an unholy practice that demanded repentance. Isaiah was the first era to prophesy against sacrificial cult:

 

"The multitude of your sacrifices - what are they to me? says the Lord...I have no pleasure in the blood of bulls and lambs and goats...Your hands are full of blood; wash and make yourselves clean. Take your evil deeds out of my sight. Cease to do evil. Learn to do good; seek justice; reprove the ruthless..." (Isa. 1:11, 15-15 NIV).

 

 

Jeremiah, AMos and Hosea were equally vocal about the evils of animal sacrifice. They all spoke out in the name of God against the killing taking place on the altars:

 

 

"For Ephraim in his sin has multiplied altars, altars have become his sin. Though they sacrifice flesh offerings to em and eat them, I the Lord will not accept them. Their guilt will be remembered and their sins punished. They shall go back to Egypt..." (Hos. 8:11 - 13 NEB).

 

They would "go back to Egypt " because, when they lived in captivity there, the sacrificial cult was not yet established in Hebrew tradition. The prophet knew his people had to go back in their understanding to a time when they had not been conditioned to accept animal sacrifice as a necessary part of their worship."

 

Speaking in the name of the Lord, Amos forcefully declared:

 

"I hate and despise your feasts, I take no pleasure in your solemn festivals. When you offer me holocausts, I reject your oblations, and refuse to look at your sacrifices of fattened cattle...but let justice flow like water, and integrity like an unfailing stream. Did you bring me sacrifice and oblation in the wilderness for all those forty years, House of Israel? " (Amos 5:21-22, 24-25 JB).

 

Contrary to what the corrupt priests in power conditioned people to think at that time, God was NOT pleased by a worship in which His creatures were dragged, in a frenzy, to be slaughtered in His name!

 

Not only did the prophets point out that sacrifices and ceremonies were man-made substitutes for the true worship of God, they also faced their people with the fact that the violence done to sacrificial animals was reflected in the violence that human beings were willing to inflict in each other.

 

The Latter Prophets frequently linked a world of peace and prosperity with a world where animals, as well as human beings, would be free from exploitation - world where all could live their lives in security and peace. The Prophet Micah also spoke of a time when people will act in away that truly conforms to the way God would have things done (see Mic. 4:2-4, NAS).

 

The words of these Prophets spoke to Judaism's deepest roots. These men of God had not introduced new concepts into Israel; they had re-introduced themes that went back to the very beginning - back to the time of Genesis, which was the only time in Biblical history that God ever described things as "very good."!

 

Their great prophecy was a sign that it was time for the human race to recover its spiritual heritage. Speaking in the name of God, the prophets let people know that it was time for the world to once again reflect the qualities that God had ordained at the Creation - love, compassion and mercy for all creatures."

 

The system of distribution of the dead animals exposes sacrificial religion as an obvious pretext for satisfying an unlawful lust for flesh: God got the suet and intestines while the people kept the most desirable body parts for themselves.

 

Jesus Christ himself also repeatedly referred to Hosea’s oracle, “I will have mercy, not sacrifice, knowledge of God, not holocausts.” The leaders of the time knew of Jesus Christ’s attempts to dismantle the sacrificial system – an action that ensured his death. It was the slaughter of animals, in the name of God, that led Jesus to the only aggressive confrontation reported of his ministry. That confrontation took place at the Jerusalem Temple where Christ took direct action against the evils of sacrifice. He freed those animals who were about to be slaughtered and disrupted the entire procedure that surrounded the sacrificial rules. (See John 2:13-16 NIV).

 

Although the Bible has a great deal to say about God’s concern for animals, for the most part this subject is ignored. The human bias that sees its own species as having preeminence – dominion – over all other creatures has distorted the biblical message.

 

Those who want to exercise ruthless dominion over animals believe that God overlooks the most sadistic and cruel treatment of sentient beings, as long as they do not have a soul. Hence, the centuries – long determination to obscure the biblical news that animals, too, are living souls.

 

In misrepresenting the Scriptures, the biblical exegetes and other scholars encourage the sinfulness of those who want to relegate nonhumans to the category of soulless “things” in order to continue exploiting them.

 

Unfortunately, the spirit of the Pharisees is alive and well today among those ministers who do not challenge the wearing of fur (for example) , and among church members who would never miss a Sunday service but have no qualms about praising God with outstretched arms that are covered with the remains of His dead animals.

 

And the last few things that I will quote from this amazing and revolutionary and reveletionary book by Hyland is this:

 

The Scriptures say: “They did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness…They changed the truth of God into a lie.” (2 Thess. 2:12, Rom. 1:25). Still, until this very day, Christians refuse to believe the Truth and instead distort God's message, and project onto God their own selfish desires.

 

And that is what I believe too, and because of “them”, I almost lost my religion and my faith in God as a compassionate, kind and merciful spirit. Thank goodness there are theologians out there that have challenged our traditional interpretations of the scriptures!

 

Hyland concludes with this insightful comment:

 

We have increasingly hidden the slaughterhouse, and its victims, from sight. Very few persons have any direct experience of the violence and brutality that is inflicted on animals in order to satisfy a meat desiring population. Additionally, the steaks, chops, etc. that are consumed show little resemblance to the creature who had to be killed in order to obtain them. Rarely does the whole carcass of an animal appear on the plate. But even when it does, there is still a religious mechanism in place to help overcome any feelings of guilt. A blessing is pronounced over the meal: God is thanked for providing the dead animal.

 

To thank God for the fruits of the earth, given to human beings for their sustenance is a legitimate religious act. But to thank the Lord for providing the flesh of an animal is not legitimate. The eating of flesh is a perversion of God’s law, indulged by a fallen human race. And to thank God for providing such food is the modern equivalent of sacrificial religion; it represents a continuing determination to claim God’s blessing on the slaughter, and consumption, of His creatures.

 

 

 

She has so much more to say about so many specific things, like Abraham’s sacrificing of a ram instead of his son, hunting, vivisecting, etc. and she makes strong arguments against the “Christianness” of all these kinds of animal exploitation. If any of you are interested in reading more, it is a short book and the title and author were noted at the outset.

 

Peace everybody,

nat

Edited July 19, 2005 by compassionategirl

[CollegeB]

I think jesus did not want animal sacrafice, am I correct? I believe there was even something at a temple and Jesus stopped an animal sacrafice or something like that. Christianity does not utilize animal sacrafice.

[compassionategirl]

I think jesus did not want animal sacrafice, am I correct? I believe there was even something at a temple and Jesus stopped an animal sacrafice or something like that. Christianity does not utilize animal sacrafice.

 

You got it College B!! Jesus tried to dismantle the system of animal sacrifice (which I refer to in the above post as sacrifical religion). IN fact, the only reported time that Christ got angry and confrontational was when he took direct action to free the animals and stopped the sacrifices that were about to be held at the temple!

 

if you read my post above, you will see that that is exactly what Hyland argues - that the LAtter Prophets and Christ himself came along and said told everybody basically that they had gotten it wrong, that God did NOT take pleasure in the slaugherter of innocent creatures, and that this was a self-serving "ritual" insitituted by humans - not demanded by God!!!!!!!!

 

I really hope many of you read Hyland's book - it is truly a must read for any spiritual person who is vegan, and maybe even for a nonspiritual vegan because it will arm them with knolwedge that they can use to set misguided Christains straight if and when necessary.

Edited July 20, 2005 by compassionategirl

[jonathan]

but animal suffering is symptomatic of christian culture. i havent actually met any christian vegans (or indeed many christian vegetarians).

 

jonathan

[naturalblonde]

Interesting discussion folks. I just wanted to mention another site I frequent is www.conservativeveggie.com where lots of conversations of this sort are talked about daily

[compassionategirl]

but animal suffering is symptomatic of christian culture. i havent actually met any christian vegans (or indeed many christian vegetarians).

 

jonathan

 

Hi Jonathan,

 

But, if your read the long post above, you will see that what Hyland is trying to say (and with which I agree) that it is symptomatic of a DISTORTED, PERVERTED AND MISGUIDED Christain culture. You have religious leaders walking around in leather, you have them hunting, you have them eating animals, etc. And they all think that it is okay to do all this, and that all this exploitation is somehow "acceptable to God" or sanctioned by the Bible. But is isnt. Animal exploitation is something that people do for themselves, NOT for God because God clearly indicates in Genesis that there will be no consumption of animals, no exploitation, no suffering, etc. The garden of Eden was the ultimate vegan period in history - and that is what we should all be striving for. Even animals were all vegetarians in the Garden of Eden. No body exploited the other. WE and teh animals were only given permission in Eden to eat PLANT foods, not each other!

 

Today's mainstream Chrisitianity has it wrong - it has misinterpreted and distorted biblical teachings so that it may continue the modern equivalent of sacrifical worship. The power structures that had a vested interest in distorting God's true message in Genesis in the biblical days are alive and kicking today. I think the hopeful message in the book for disillusioned Christians is that God would be vegan and so should we all, if we are to truly honour God and do "on earth as it is in heaven." It shows us that mainstream Christianity today has TOTALLY strayed from the vegan path of Genesis - the ONLY time in Biblical history that God described the state of affairs as "very good."

 

SO bascially, dont give up on God because selfish and misguided Christians have gotten the Biblical message wrong!!! i think is what I get out of this book. And that is great news for me because I dont want to lose my religion. Without faith, life is much more difficult for me.

[naturalblonde]

SO bascially, dont give up on God because selfish and misguided Christians have gotten the Biblical message wrong!!! i think is what I get out of this book. And that is great news for me because I dont want to lose my religion. Without faith, life is much more difficult for me.

 

Agreed !!

[compassionategirl]

You speak of creation as well, then you must believe god created carnivores and predators. What worse way to go than being eaten or ripped apart by a predator. Would a kind and loving god create such things? I think such a god would in fact stick the fork in to the sobbing pig!

 

If your god were actually concerned about any of these issues, couldn't he just put a stop to it?

 

Actually, in Genesis, both people AND animals were vegan. The only thing that all animals, including humans, were given permission to eat was plant based foods. This is what Hyland says on that issue:

 

"The nonviolent nature of all earth's inhabitants is further delineated in the biblical report of God's plan for the sustenance of all creatures. Food was provided only from the bounty of the earth; no creature was to feed on another:

 

"Then God said [to the man and the woman], "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be for your food. And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the air and all the creatures that move on the ground - everything that has breath of life in it - I will give every green plant for food." And it was so, God saw all that He had made and it was very good." (Gen. 1:29-31 NIV).

 

There is no information regarding the amount of time it took for this idyllic existence to end, but the third chapter of Genesis reports a degeneration that has already taken place. The man and woman have chosen to partake of evil. Once they had chosen evil, the degeneration of Adam and Eve reached the point where they were no longer able to respect or abide by the rules of a paradisiacal existence. Consequently, they had to leave Eden. Their new environment reflected their regressive behaviour. And because humans were their care-takers, the animals reflected their their fall from a higher estate. In our age of ecological concern, it is easier to understand how the negative behaviour of human beings adversely affected the life around them. It reached the point that the very earth was cursed. (See Gen. 3:17-19). No longer would the lush bounty of the earth automatically provide for Adam and Eve with nourishment, and the animals would share the human fate of having to labour and forage for their food. Together they had enjoyed an Edenic existence; together they had deteriorated from their higher estate.

 

Instead of the balance of nature that had originally provided food for all creatures from the bounty of the earth, there was now a debased system in which every creature could be prey of another. And the scriptural prophecy that animals would come to "fear and dread" human beings also came true for other humans. People would prey upon their own species; the powerful would consume the lives and substance of the less powerful - human or non.

 

The vision of the latter prophets - of a time when the lion wil lie down with the lamb and all earth's creatures will live in peace with each other - seems an impossible dream. It seems impossible because human beings have chosen to believe that both animals and people are violent by nature. Since this is held to be a self-evident truth, any information that casts doubt on its credibility is rejected. So the creed remains in tact.

 

This view of a world in the process of evolving from barbarism to civilization can be a comforting one. No matter how badly people or societies may behave, they have come a long way from their primitive beginnings. Patience must be exhibited with homo sapiens: evolving from barbarism is no easy task. or so it is believed. The dogma is different for animals. It is generally believed that they are biologically doomed to violence, that their genes are somehow permanently programmed for killing. This system of belief conveniently overlooks the facts of conditioning and adaptation. It dismisses the possibility that having become conditioned to violence, some species eventually adapted to such behaviour.

 

The biblical view of natural histroy contradicts the theory that the human race has evolved over long periods of time to its present, higher development. In fact, the Bible tells a story of regression, not progression.

 

The Book of Genesis reports that animals and humns were created with a nonviolent nature, that goodness was their innate characteristic. Genesis tells the story of creatures whose natural condition is one of peaceful coexistence with their own species and with all other species. And although all have fallen from a higher state, their innate goodness - their nonviolent nature - remains waiting to be reactivated. Even though they have adapted to a violent lifestyle, both aniamls and humans can readapt to their original peaceful natures. It is on this foundational truth that the millenial vision of the Latter Prophets was based. IT was this truth that undergirded their vision of a time when, once again, humans and nonhumans would live together peaceably, in a peaceable world. IT would be a world free from the suffering and fear that the earth's creatures have unleashed upon themselves. When people return to their Edenic natures, the animals will follow. "

 

 

I was surprised and hopeful after having read the above work of Hyland that somebody could actually see and believe that even animals can live peaceably among each other. Talk about a work that inspires hope for a peaceable kingdom indeed!!! I am really glad I read her book. It really made me see things in a whole new light. And, it saved my religion!

 

Although, Michael, the last question that you raise in your quote above is I think a mystery to most people. It is that age old question: WHY does God let bad things happen to Good people and innocent animals? Surely he has the pwoer to intervene and stop it. I dont know why. I dont know why God allows children to die of starvation, dont know why he allows billions of animals to be sadistically tortured and killed every year. C.S. Lewis in his book "The Problem of Pain" even gave "animal pain" a whole chapter and basically argued that people are supposed to be improved somehow by the pain. But animals, he asserts, do not deserve the pain, nor are they improved by the pain, which makes ANIMAL pain an especially vexing mystery. Very interesting stuff all of this.

 

peace

[compassionategirl]

one last quote from the book:

 

"Of course the slaughtered animals lost all control of their bladders and kidneys. The smells, the frenziesd of the dying creatures, and the endless buckets of blood thrown on the altar in the name of God, make it obvious that this ritual of terror and violence was the worship of an idol. This god-of-the-slaughter was created by humans in their own, fallen image...Hundreds of years later, Jesus Christ, who began his ministry claiming to be the fulfillment of Isaiah's prophecy (Luke 4:16-20) took action against that system."

 

"...can ye not discern the signs of the times?" (Matt. 16:3).

 

[kollision]

That was in the bible? wow

[michaelhobson]

Thanks Compassionate Girl for your thoughtful response. It seems a bit of a stretch to draw some of those conclusions from the bible, but I can respect your point of view and your sincerity. I'll leave it at that for now.

[willpeavy]

I think a loving god would rather be nice to animals than eat them

[michaelhobson]

I think a loving god would rather be nice to animals than eat them

 

Do you think such a god is represented in the bible?

[CollegeB]

Michael it seems absurd that a god who is compassionate and loving would condone the murder of animals when clearly there are so many things god placed on earth for people to eat and they have the free will abilities to choose to eat meat or not. I dont really believe all that was put here or even in a god necessarily, but if god is a being of compassion and love does veganism, or omnivorism fit those two characteristics?