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Vegan elitism


Sknydpr
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Glad to hear that it made you laugh Cant believe you kept on making me feel bad thinking that I kept on making you feel old But ya I have a sister almost your age and my mom is 50 so it aint a bad thing Older women (well older than me) are more mature (at least should be)!

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Hey koll!!

 

YOU have a sister? Cool, how old is she and does she love animals? What doe she say about your lifestyle? Sometimes even family just doesnt get it

 

Ya I told you I had a sister in that other thread I believe. She is an ass and I don't like her. As for my lifestyle, one time when we were at Olive Garden she kind of mocked it, but if she did it now, Id go off on her ass. I despise her and is the last person Id like to see.

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I agree with everyone that suffering is universal, as I stated before, and I think the speciesist argument is a valid one. My point was - as I believe this thread was originally created to address - that as vegans we are tackling a huge societal intolerance for animal rights and must be cautious with how we present our cause to meateaters and the like. It is my belief that a hardline stance in advocacy - not personal belief - does far more to alienate prospective vegetarians and therefore, in the aggregate, does far more harm for the animals and everything else involved.

 

Actually the original subject of this thread was about requiring board members of an animal rights group to be vegan. That point may have been lost somewhere in the last 7 volumes of text.

 

As far as the hardline message alienating prospective vegans? I have to think you are both right and wrong on this.

 

I would guess that the majority of current activists were brought to the cause by some sort of hardline message, activism or direct contact with other vegans. To say that the same message is now going to be ineffective in reaching others does not make any sense.

 

That said, a variety of approaches will be needed to reach a variety of people. However, we do need to be cautios with our messages. Someone who "only eats chicken" shouldn't be left to think they have done their part. They should be recognized for the progress they have made and encouraged to move forward. Same goes for vegetarians!

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Good points. The original post in this thread was addressing the efficacy of having non-vegans on animal rights board, you're right, but I think, in an overarching point, it was trying to address how we come off to others, the message we send with a hardline stance toward veganism (hence 'vegan elitism').

 

I agree that a variety of outreach methods are required to appeal to a very diverse audience. Well said. I was just focusing on the broad message we send to a mass, mainstream audience.

 

As far as a person who still eats chicken, don't get me wrong, that doesn't make me happy or content in any way. But I think it can be effective to make some compromises to get people's foot in the door of animal rights. If you're sitting at animal rights demo table, you don't have a lot of time to make your point and keep your audience engaged. You need to hit the nail on the head, make your point and establish some kind of rapport with the person you're talking with so that you will have a lasting impression. If they say the could never give up chicken, I think it's better to say, "Then give up everything else and still eat chicken. Veganism is a gradual process" than to let them go away feeling it's all or nothing and they can't make the cut.

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i acknowledge that people have different priorities and different methods of doing things, but i for one could not 'work my way towards' veganism. its all or nothing. once i went veggie, i never craved meat nor ate it again, once i went vegan (which i did overnight) i never craved dairy or ate it again. i know alot of people who are the same.

maybe the working towards approach is kind of like 'ill get the kitchen painted next week' which you continue to say for ten years. its an easy way to put it off. whereas if you are faced with the stark reality of animal exploitation, and the choice, vegan or not, you might be quite likely to go vegan.

i dont know really. but to me, the reducing animal product consumption doesnt really work. the animal products still have their toe in the door, so to speak, and can easily flood back in.

 

jonathan

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i dont know really. but to me, the reducing animal product consumption doesnt really work. the animal products still have their toe in the door, so to speak, and can easily flood back in.

 

jonathan

 

Well said! That's how it happened for me. As you know I was strictly vegan for many years before living in hare krishna land. At first it was just ghee in the curry from protected cows on the farm. Then it was ice cream and cheese. After I moved away from hare krishna world, it was I'll eat things that have eggs, but not eggs. Then that made no sense, so why not just eat eggs. This process went on for nearly 7 years!

 

I had no thought of ever eating meat and I really didn't eat a tremendous amout of dairy, but every time I ate dairy or eggs there was part of me that knew it wasn't right. It took Vegan Fitness to kick my ass and put me back on track!

 

It wasn't a weak 'we're so glad you're a vegetarian' message that did it either. It was a straightforward 'you're eating animal products, it's wrong, cut it out' message. I didn't find the message on vegan fitness to be elitist or attacking, just factual and straightforward. No attempt to sugar coat the damage done consuming any animal products.

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The never ending threaaaaad wooaahh wooaaah wooooaaahh.....

 

 

I can really see this argument from both sides. On one hand I believe that meat eaters have absolutely no excuse, but you have to be careful in your approach or you drive people away really quick. People are more likely to hear you out if you take a compassionate approach. Thats why i liked jonathans statements, great youve gone vegetarian, here's a copy of why vegan, instead of saying you eat eggs you're still an asshole i hope you choke on your next omlette. ALot of people make a gradual transition to veganism. I am always willing to offer people information about veganism and the course that brought me here, but i won't attack them unless they attack me first. Then its on. And they're likely to find a banana in their tailpipe.

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I can really see this argument from both sides. On one hand I believe that meat eaters have absolutely no excuse, but you have to be careful in your approach or you drive people away really quick. People are more likely to hear you out if you take a compassionate approach. Thats why i liked jonathans statements, great youve gone vegetarian, here's a copy of why vegan, instead of saying you eat eggs you're still an asshole i hope you choke on your next omlette. ALot of people make a gradual transition to veganism. I am always willing to offer people information about veganism and the course that brought me here, but i won't attack them unless they attack me first. Then its on. And they're likely to find a banana in their tailpipe.

 

Well said, Ash!! I agree.

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i acknowledge that people have different priorities and different methods of doing things, but i for one could not 'work my way towards' veganism. its all or nothing. once i went veggie, i never craved meat nor ate it again, once i went vegan (which i did overnight) i never craved dairy or ate it again. i know alot of people who are the same.

maybe the working towards approach is kind of like 'ill get the kitchen painted next week' which you continue to say for ten years. its an easy way to put it off. whereas if you are faced with the stark reality of animal exploitation, and the choice, vegan or not, you might be quite likely to go vegan.

i dont know really. but to me, the reducing animal product consumption doesnt really work. the animal products still have their toe in the door, so to speak, and can easily flood back in.

 

jonathan

 

Exactyl brother, your life right there was the same with me. I went that same night, and I havent looked back. Knowing that the animals are suffering is more than enough to stop me.

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Can I throw my 2 cents in, being (perhaps) the only non-vegetarian, non-vegan hanging about on the board?

 

I think Brendan is spot on! Years ago I was quite active peddling my own ideology. After a while, I realized that the only people who would listen to me were those who were already converted. Everyone else just rolled their eyes and walked away.

 

Intellectually, I will be swayed by rational arguments for veganism... hardcore and absolutist. Many of these arguments have already been given to me by some very sharp people here on the board. But I am not always a rational person . How I react to someone often has a lot to do with how they treat me first. If I am met by an angry vegan (haven't seen any on this board), who accuses me of not caring about animals... of murder and torture... I would probably get all defensive and argue right back that animals don't have rights... they're just stupid animals that are here for us to use as we want. I am not saying that that is what I think, just that sometimes emotion kicks in first. Brendan's approach is calming and allows for the emotions to be held at bay until the mind can engage.

 

BTW, everyone here has been very supportive. I appreciate that.

 

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

BTW, some of the most perceptive and overpowering writing on freedom and human rights came at the end of the 18th century in America. Franklin, Madison, Paine, Monroe, and others. But perhaps the most convincing was Thomas Jefferson, who inherited 187 slaves from his mother and still owned them when he died. Certainly a contradiction and certainly wrong. But his writings helped to break the tyrrany of King George III and established a body of ideas that others applied more rigorously in the following years. The anti-slavery movement of 1840-1860 applied the same concept of human rights to black people by arguing that black people were human, too, and so had the same rights. These same activists fought again in the 1880s for the rights of women, using the same arguments. (Many of you may not know that the concept of marital rape did not exist in the 1800s in America. A woman was considered the property of her husband and he could do with her what he wanted, when he wanted.) Today we are still struggling to repair the damage done by inconsistent ideololgy of our ancesters, we still struggle to apply human rights across the board. I think the future will see an expansion of the concept of human rights to include animals, but we still have a long way to go. We stand on the shoulders of our parent's culture.

 

I guess where I was headed with all this is that it is essential to talk in absolute terms with people who already share your basic premises, but when trying to reach out to people who are unclear on the concept of animal rights a more balanced approach is needed. This balanced approach, over time, will produce the real change in our culture. But it will certainly take time. (Just my opinion: If Jefferson had demanded freedom for slaves, I don't think the South would have joined the revolution and we would have remained an English colony for many years... If the activists of the 1850s had demanded equal rights for women and blacks then neither would have occured... As I said, just my opinion.)

 

As far as a person who still eats chicken, don't get me wrong, that doesn't make me happy or content in any way. But I think it can be effective to make some compromises to get people's foot in the door of animal rights. If you're sitting at animal rights demo table, you don't have a lot of time to make your point and keep your audience engaged. You need to hit the nail on the head, make your point and establish some kind of rapport with the person you're talking with so that you will have a lasting impression. If they say the could never give up chicken, I think it's better to say, "Then give up everything else and still eat chicken. Veganism is a gradual process" than to let them go away feeling it's all or nothing and they can't make the cut.

 

Just So

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How I react to someone often has a lot to do with how they treat me first. If I am met by an angry vegan (haven't seen any on this board), who accuses me of not caring about animals... of murder and torture... I would probably get all defensive and argue right back that animals don't have rights... they're just stupid animals that are here for us to use as we want. I am not saying that that is what I think, just that sometimes emotion kicks in first. Brendan's approach is calming and allows for the emotions to be held at bay until the mind can engage.

 

 

Good point Sirdle.

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  • 7 months later...

Not to insult anyone but I am a little disappointed with the EXTREME attitudes here.

 

I was born into a family that had been lacto-vegetarian for generations. Like most people in India are. It is a country where the cow is considered sacred.

 

Of course, back in the day (way before my generation) people in villages used to have their own cows at home.

 

Animal rights or human rights is one thing.

 

I ve live 25+ years of my life as a vegetarian. Never ate an ANIMAL or such. (No eggs either.. I consider egg as a possible living being). Milk kept for a 1000 years will not turn into a cow.

 

These are PERSONAL BELIEFS as Ive grown up.

 

BUT.. I never had a NEGATIVE or ELITIST attitude towards anyone who eats meat or otherwise. Its THEIR CHOICE.

 

Also, to some extent NOT EVERY PERSON ON THE PLANET CAN BE VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN. WHY? The world wont be able to support us.

 

I think NATURE and EVOLUTION decide what happens. If there is some guy on a pacific island I'd expect them to eat fish. Thats the ECOSYSTEM they are part of. I cant expect them to be vegetarian.

 

I dont hate people who eat beef or any other meat. I live my life the best I can and try what I can do. I am not perfect. If having yogurt and make me what I am.. well.. thats how I grew up and I see that it is fairly clean diet.

 

Now ANIMAL ABUSE in DIARY FARMS. That is different from me drinking milk. Atleast, I am not eating some animal. What do you think happens in countries where CATTLE are the primary AUTOMOBILE/ TRACTOR/ FARMING MACHINE/ TRANSPORTATION MACHINE.

 

Bullock carts, Horse Carriages and the likes.. I am not saying they are perfect.. but thats life..

 

How many of you can say you do not drive from X to Y in a gas hogging vehicle? ... or will never need to? Go and live off the land.. thats pure VEGAN.. if u want to be.. We influence things without knowing.. The piping inside your automobile might have some polymer item that depends on some animal extract to be chemically processed & manufactured.. Can you fix that? ...

 

No matter what you do.. no matter how VEGAN and pro-animal you claim to be you will impact the LIFECYCLE in some way...unless you go TARZAN and live off the LAND.. So try your best and appreciate what people do to their BEST extent.

 

If I talk to a japanse guy and ask him to stop eating sushi he will look at me and wonder what I am thinking.

 

ELITISM is nothing but SELF PRIDE & EGO on CERTAIN TRAITS.

 

Be the Buddha... Be above judging small things.

 

Be anti-fur and anti-meat.. but dont be ANTI ...period.

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I noticed one more thing..

 

OH you are vegetarian now.. good boy.. but ur still lacking behind vegans.. so to achieve NIRVANA you have to go VEGAN.

 

This is sad.

 

Maybe some people are content with being Vegetarian. Maybe some lone fisherman on a pacific island eats fish and has probably never had chicken or meat. He is a fish-eterian.

 

RESPECT THAT.

 

I dont like HARDLINERS and ELITIST mentalities in any form. Political, Religion or Diet in that sense.

 

BE HAPPY ABOUT WHAT YOU DO. DONT PUSH IT ON TO OTHERS. OBJECTIVELY EXPRESS YOUR LEARNINGS. DONT PUSH IT AS "MY WAY IS BETTER THAN YOUR WAY".

 

All the vegan 'moderates' here seem to have a .. oh Vegetarianism is just your stepping stone to Veganism.. at that point you will be the PURIST of the PURIST.. until then you are still short of being SUPER HUMAN & ATTAINING NIRVANA... Hello.. what if Vegetarianism was my goal.. or was part of my life .. all along. PERIOD.

 

I see the same push with people in religious followings. I think a religion is nothing but HOW YOU CHOOSE TO LIVE YOUR LIFE. and that is YOUR CHOICE. You could choose one of the mainstream ways.. or find a middle path between them or find a specialized sect or church of thought. BOTTOMLINE remains the same.

 

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Crash you said "Also, to some extent NOT EVERY PERSON ON THE PLANET CAN BE VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN. WHY? The world wont be able to support us."

 

I'm not sure I follow you there since the same stuff we eat is eaten in larger amounts by animals to then be slaughtered for meat, which does not feed as many people. I'm sure you've heard a similar argument before. I think more people worldwide have a chance of being fed a plant based diet versus a meat based diet.

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You have to keep in mind that this is a vegan board, so this is vegans talking to other vegans about what they believe. People probably feel safe saying things here that they may not say to meat eaters or vegetarians.

 

I believe that a vegan diet is better than a vegetarian diet or an omnivorious one. That's should be obvious--if I didn't, why would I have chosen to adopt one? I was an omnivore, then I was a lacto-ovo-vegetarian, then I became vegan. I did so because I thought about it and decided that veganism was better.

 

I suppose you would be comfortable with my statements above if I added "for me" to the end of them. But why am I so different from other people that one thing would be best for me but not be best for others (even if not for every other person on the planet, at least for a large number of other people and especially for people in my own society who live similar lives to mine)? Anyway, I didn't choose to be vegan because I thought it best for me. I chose to be vegan because I thought it best for the animals. The more people who are vegan, the better, for the animals. There's no difference between me or her or him in that respect.

 

So yes, I think that veganism is ethically superior to non-veganism. I understand that it's impossible for some people to be vegan, but I am thinking just about the cases in which it is possible to be vegan. I think this just like I think being nice to other people is ethically superior to being mean to them. We all make judgements about what actions are ethically/morally superior to others. If we didn't, we would be unable to act ethically ourselves because we'd have no perception of what is ethical and what is not.

 

This does not mean that I think that I am ethically superior to people who are not vegan, just like I don't think I am ethically superior to someone who is mean to other people. It's one thing to judge actions but judging other people is hard because we all are a mixed bag. We do some good things, some bad things, and some neutral things. So while I might be nicer to other people than John Doe, maybe he's doing some other great things where I am falling short.

 

I accept that people are going to do things I think are not great, like be mean to other people. Should I treat those people with respect? Yes. Should I respect their mean actions? No. And I would view a change toward being nicer to people as desireable. If I could influence them in that direction, I would feel good about it.

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crashburn, eating animal products and supporting those industries is causing harm to animals. In order to get that suffering reduced, veganism has to be promoted. In order to get people to stop causing suffering, you need to tell them that they are currently causing suffering. If they don't realise they are causing suffering, then they would have no reason to change. This is why a vegan would tell someone that they're doing something wrong. I don't know where your anger comes from regarding this. Saying that vegetarianism is your goal does not change the fact that eggs and milk are still cruel. It's like saying that kicking someone in the leg is your goal. Just because it's your goal it doesn't mean it's a good goal. Yes, it's a better goal than kicking someone in the leg twice, and I would advise all people who kick people twice to kick people once instead. But the single leg kick is still bad and unnecessary.

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The animals don't care if you turn 1 person into a vegan instead of turning 3 people to eat 33,3% of their meals without animal products. The only one who cares is the vegan trying to convert them.

 

Another thing ->

If you put yourself on a pedistal there will be reactions. There are alot of groups in society that does this (scientologists, nationalists, fundamental christians, elitist vegans, etc.). They are all caughed at by other people simply because they don't believe them to be better than them. All it will do is to piss people off and they in turn will counter attack. Muhammad caricatures, t-shirts saying: "For every animal you don't eat, I will eat two!", etc.

 

The way to win the battle is to have something that other people want.

People want to be healthy. People want to be athletic. People don't want to be obese. People want a purpose in their lives. People want confidence. Alot of people want to be leaders. And first and foremost, people want to be happy.

If you have any of these abilities (or other, positive ones, that I didn't think of), use it! If you don't have it, get it!

 

To me veganism is something positive and I present it that way.

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Everything we do .. causes harm. PERIOD. I am not angry here.. I am disappointed because I thought people here had a more balanced view point.

 

I saw the 'Alec Baldwin' thing on PETA and it said 'Dairy' leads to VEAL farming. I felt guilty as I saw that video. I began to wonder if me having some organic milk was causing that to happen to cows?

 

That way I should feel guilty for living in a capitalist nation versus a communist socialist nation where everyone no matter how hard they work get the same. Sometimes I do feel when I see people who dont have ..and we have so much.

 

What is better ?

 

- Guy who is vegan but drives a pickup truck/SUV) (GAS & ECO unfriendly) , buys stuff at some store for value pricing.. that was priced that way by exploitation of some people (& animals) in some remote country.

 

- Guy who has his own little farm in remote country with a few animals; some chicken (for eggs), maybe some cows (for milk) and a few bulls (for transportation) since he cannot afford an automobile his entire life. He probably has no source of SOY based supermarkets within 1000 miles of his location.

 

Another discussion area..

 

Some people here mentioned that if you rear animals / chickens on your farm without being cruel to them but eventually end up consuming them/ their children.. then that would be okay.

 

So animal consumption without 'crue living' would be okay? So consuming animals that died a natural death after living a long natural life would be okay?

 

I dont know what peoples motivations are..

 

Mine is PERSONAL. I am not an animal rights activist.. and probably wont be. I do appreciate and respect living rights of all animals. So, I wonder if someone having horses & dogs & cats should have them. They should be let go and live wild & free in the jungles.

 

I dont judge people who eat meat, fish, eggs, whatever else. I dont think I AM BETTER THAN THEM. I dont judge people who have pets (caged or uncaged birds, fish, dogs, cats, horses, llamas.. or whatever else).

 

IN NO WAY DO I THINK I HAVE A BETTER THAN THEM MENTALITY.

 

I HAVE A .. I DO WHAT I DO BEST.. the BEST I CAN DO.. MENTALITY.

 

The way to win the battle is to have something that other people want.

People want to be healthy. People want to be athletic. People don't want to be obese. People want a purpose in their lives. People want confidence. Alot of people want to be leaders. And first and foremost, people want to be happy.

If you have any of these abilities (or other, positive ones, that I didn't think of), use it! If you don't have it, get it!

 

That is manipulation. I have seen missionaries convert poor villagers into Christianity by simply offering them 10 or 20$ a month in local currency. That is a lot of money for some people.

 

You have to keep in mind that this is a vegan board, so this is vegans talking to other vegans about what they believe. People probably feel safe saying things here that they may not say to meat eaters or vegetarians.

Fair enough. Does not mean you have an ELITIST mentality.

 

I know I have a certain way of life.. spiritually, philosophically, socially and diet wise.. I DONT PREACH THAT TO ANYONE. If people ask.. I tell them about MY LIFE and how it is. I dont HATE, or SINGLE OUT or LEAVE OUT OF CONVERSATION or CREATE an INNER CIRCLE that excludes.. people who do not fall into my lifestyle.

 

I know what MY LIFESTYLE BENEFITS are for me. If others like SOME PART OF IT.. they can LEARN.. and take THOSE PARTS. I DO THE SAME. I take what I learn from others and apply it to my life.. part by part. But, I dont like it when someone pushes or preaches that to me. Maybe there will be a 100 things and I might pick up 20.

 

The discussion was simply about ELITIST mentalities among vegans. No matter how great lord BUDDA was.. he did not have that attitude towards anyone. To each his own.

 

You can talk about what happens and let people make their decisions. Dont be EXCLUSIVE thinking you have achieved NIRVANA by going VEGAN.

 

But why am I so different from other people that one thing would be best for me but not be best for others (even if not for every other person on the planet, at least for a large number of other people and especially for people in my own society who live similar lives to mine)? Anyway, I didn't choose to be vegan because I thought it best for me. I chose to be vegan because I thought it best for the animals. The more people who are vegan, the better, for the animals. There's no difference between me or her or him in that respect.

 

No. It was not just the animals you thought about. You DID.. conciously or sub conciously in some way FACTOR in the BENEFITS you would DERIVE as well from going VEGAN. No matter how hard you want to make believe.. we do things for OURSELVES no matter how self less we want to be.

 

Zen buddhism session that I attended a few weeks back. Someone asked about COMPASSION. The statement and reply was.. we use compassion as a mode of trying to help someone who is LESS fortunate than you. That means.. you are the GIVER of compassion because you CONSIDER YOURSELF IN A BETTER "POSITION". ELITIST. He said.. that is not ABSOLUTE COMPASSION. We label things.. every minute, every second since we cognition after we are born.

 

This does not mean that I think that I am ethically superior to people who are not vegan, just like I don't think I am ethically superior to someone who is mean to other people.
I AGREE. Stop labeling. Look inside and do what you can do best.
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Crash you said "Also, to some extent NOT EVERY PERSON ON THE PLANET CAN BE VEGETARIAN OR VEGAN. WHY? The world wont be able to support us."

 

I'm not sure I follow you there since the same stuff we eat is eaten in larger amounts by animals to then be slaughtered for meat, which does not feed as many people. I'm sure you've heard a similar argument before. I think more people worldwide have a chance of being fed a plant based diet versus a meat based diet.

 

Read my previous post. IDEALISM and REAL life are different.

 

Through the history of evolution people have found animal products or seafood. The logistics of making everyone VEGAN is as far fetched as everyone having EQUAL SALARIES and everything EQUAL in the world.

 

If you can afford to buy soy milk from an air conditioned store that you can drive to that gets its refrigerated stock by a refrigereated whole foods truck.. does it mean everyone in the world can?

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The animals don't care if you turn 1 person into a vegan instead of turning 3 people to eat 33,3% of their meals without animal products. The only one who cares is the vegan trying to convert them.

 

Another thing ->

If you put yourself on a pedistal there will be reactions. There are alot of groups in society that does this (scientologists, nationalists, fundamental christians, elitist vegans, etc.). They are all caughed at by other people simply because they don't believe them to be better than them. All it will do is to piss people off and they in turn will counter attack. Muhammad caricatures, t-shirts saying: "For every animal you don't eat, I will eat two!", etc.

 

The way to win the battle is to have something that other people want.

People want to be healthy. People want to be athletic. People don't want to be obese. People want a purpose in their lives. People want confidence. Alot of people want to be leaders. And first and foremost, people want to be happy.

If you have any of these abilities (or other, positive ones, that I didn't think of), use it! If you don't have it, get it!

 

To me veganism is something positive and I present it that way.

 

I like the way you put it. Especially the stuff I marked.

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Crashnburn, your attitude is out of line. Your constant use of capitals infers that you are pretty damn angry about something.

 

This is a vegan board. We are mostly vegan. If you don't like it fair enough, but do not attack us in our own home.

 

And why is it exactly that you feel you need to eat milk? Would you not live just as well without it? You acknowledge that you eating it causes suffering? Rather than comparing your impact to others, why not live the life you lead, and be vegan too?

 

Jonathan

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.

 

Not angry. Just my 2 cents. I am not attacking you. I RESPECT your WAY of LIFE. (Capitals.. are just for emphasis here & earlier).

 

I respect someone who follows a certain lifestyle and I am interested in learning from them. E.g. I went to this zen buddisht place for a meditation class. They were not trying to TELL ME that THEY ARE ELITE and since I havent dont meditation in THEIR way, that they are better.

 

It projects a better IMAGE from them. I respect them more for that.

 

If I went to a VEGAN meet and someone says.. you a

re vegetarian so you cant be here... well that would be not projecting a great IMAGE of the VEGAN group would it?

 

Because, a co worker of mine is not vegetarian I should not invite him to have a taste of my veg cooking?

 

I am vegetarian but I dont put an elitist stance for any non veggies nor do I preach to them.

 

I am here.. with the VEGAN board because I share 90% commonality in diet & mindset. I appreciate what I get to learn from that 90% and the people here should probably respect my 10% difference. That is what creates greater respect and brotherhood.

 

This was not so much about VEGAN -> LACTO -> OCTO -> FISH -> CHICKEN -> RED MEAT. It was my perspective on ELITIST mentalities.

 

PS: Either ways.. I think I ran out of juice . End of discussion from my side.

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I saw the 'Alec Baldwin' thing on PETA and it said 'Dairy' leads to VEAL farming. I felt guilty as I saw that video. I began to wonder if me having some organic milk was causing that to happen to cows?

 

 

Yes, the veal industry is a by-product of the milk industry. if you drink "organic" milk, that does not change. You are still drinking the milk (or should I say stealing the milk) that was intended by nature for the young of another species. But veal calves are ripped away from their mothers so we can steal the milk that was meant for them. The industry cares little about the psychological impact that this has on the mother or her babies. It is unethical and unnatural for humans to drink milk, and I suspect you intuitively sense that since what you saw on the video made you feel guilty. Human beings are the only species of animal that drink milk past the weaning stage, and the milk of another species to boot!!!!!

 

Boycott all dairy. There is a veal calf at the bottom of every glass of milk, organic or otherwise.

 

And do I think a compassionate, kind lifestyle is superior to a less compassionate and more violent, unevolved one? Damn straight it is, and arguing otherwise flunks the straight face test.

 

I will read your other remarks more carefully when I have time.

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