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this pictures are from caifas i found this little guy on the streets while two bastards were kicking him so i had to kick their ass

 

and now he is my best friend

 

there is also my wife and two of my tatoos animal liberation human liberation and animal muppet

 

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/4508/caifas4ax.jpg

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/7291/familiatarello3zl.jpg

 

http://img126.imageshack.us/img126/6522/tatuscaifasyyo6pi.jpg

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Awwwww those are awesome pics. Thanks for sharing!

 

I especially love the last one where she is giving you a nice big wet kiss right on the kisser!

 

 

PC, where did you get your doggy from? I remember there were so many stray dogs in mexico when I was there (and cats). IT was heartbreaking.

 

Do Mexicans generally love dogs and cats (i.e. do they at least give these strays some food), or do they see them as vermon to be poisoned and shooed away?

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lots of families like dogs , but there are tons of stray dogs and cats on the streets that you cant imagine

 

its terrible to see this , and nobody has the culture of pick up stray dogs , they prefer to buy fancy dogs in pet stores , that is a shame

 

also our animal rights laws are not that good , somebody found a video of three drunk bastards burning a dog alive and while he was dying they were laughing

 

the government did nothing about it, that is why my brother that is a lawyer is trying to work with government and animal rights here to improve laws and punich animal abuse

 

i dont know who are those sick guys but if i found them i will kill them for sure

 

anyway is sad to see so many poor thiny dogs on the street and nobody cares

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The Philippines is much the same...there are alot of strays...only wealthy people really buy dogs and few keep strays for pets because they have enough trouble feeding themselves. There are very few clinics for any dogs or cats...and when people do feed dogs more than table scraps(and even those cases too) the dogs are probably going to be eaten for food. Other than that I can't recall seeing anyone hurt a dog...they are treated more like homeless people by most of the population...the dogs just walk around like nomads searching for food

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also our animal rights laws are not that good , somebody found a video of three drunk bastards burning a dog alive and while he was dying they were laughing

 

the government did nothing about it, that is why my brother that is a lawyer is trying to work with government and animal rights here to improve laws and punich animal abuse

 

i dont know who are those sick guys but if i found them i will kill them for sure

 

 

You'd think I would be use to stories like this by now, and somewhat desensitized, knowing that it happens every minute of every day to billions and billions of different animals, but I am not desensitized to it. It gets me in the gut everytime, and brings me to my knees. I am devastated and feel very depressed right now. Then again, the constant awareness of animal torture always has a depressing hold on me. There is no escaping it. Once you know, you cant un-know. We live with it daily.

 

I am SO happy to hear though that your lawyer brother cares about animals and is using his skills to help them. Please send him my thank-you for that! I really hope that these people who burned this poor animal alive feel the exact same suffering they inflicted. My compassion does NOT apply to people like that - but my rage does! And being drunk is no excuse to what they did. I wish upon them **bad** things!

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We should consider ourselves very lucky to be in a position in which we can be vegan. This means we have the ability to make a choice in our lives to try to live compassionately. Perhaps the majority of the world does not have this luxury. Many are more concerned with their own survival and the survival of loved ones- they do not have the luxury of caring about other beings. When you see the horrible things humans are capable of doing to fellow human beings, is it reallya surprise that they are capable of those same atrocities against animals? Humans have a predisposition to project our own feelings of powerlessness on those "below" us. Perhaps when people are given more control over their lives, have their own needs met, and are not oppressed by others, they will then have the ability to sympathize with not only other people, but with other animals as well. It should be no surprise that poorer countries have less "compassion" for animals...in many ways, unfortunately, compassion is a luxury.

Oh...cool dog...I almost forgot in the midst of my rant! Glad you were able to make the new friend! We recently took our dog Sigo off the streets. He had apparently been run over ( lots of road rash) and been on the streets for a while. He followed my wife and daughter home and has never left. He follows me constantly and is always by my side, hence the name! It really seems like "rescued" animals know what's up and really show their appreciation. Best friends ever!

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Other than the coldest parts of the world everyone can be vegan...for the most part the poorest of the poor in the Philippines never eat dairy(even middle class people rarely eat dairy), and almost never eat eggs. They may get fish once a week but for the most part its garlic, rice, tofu(much cheaper than fish) soysauce, bananas and mangos. The average income people(which in all respects are poor) eat some meat and don't really live longer than the very poor because neight can afford health care...unless you live in the tundra there is enough vegetation to live off pretty much everywhere...its tradition that keeps poor people in many parts of the world eating meat not limited access. I saw a "feed the children" comercial with a mexican women complaining that her kids only eat beans and rice every day and eat meat just once a week...her kids would be better off with the beans and rice instead of meat and rice. Tradition dictates that meat is a need...for many centuries the Roman poor ate bread, some beans, olive oil and drank wine and that was about it...until now no population has had a longer lifespan than the prodominantly vegetarian Roman populace and the only reason that is true is because children aren't born dead as often as they once were...for the most part once you reach 6 your life expectancy may change 5 years at most from those days to now. Being poor is not an excuse...it should be an excuse to not eat meat because you can't afford it...instead people believe they need it and go broke trying to get it. Also I think in general(obviously not always) the poor treat animals better than we(non 3rd world dwellers) do in other parts of the world because for the most part they don't care that they are there and instead of torturing them they'd rather not waste their time...fortunate americans who are taught "ethics" do these things for entertainment.

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Peta,

Great pics & tats comp@!

 

Karl,

Most of us tend to be very privileged and we should remember that. Many folks in the world have vegan/near vegan diets simply because they cant afford meat, etc. I dont blame anyone for doing what they need to do to survive and would argue that someone truly living off the land and hunting for their food is generally doing less harm to the earth and animals than us who drive cars, use computers, buy processed foods at grocery stores, use oil-based products, etc... That said, I do not advocate that people adopt that lifestyle or consider it a sustainable option for as many human as we have now. I dont believe that we "have a predisposition to project our own feelings of powerlessness on those

"below" us" - this is a learned trait, same as compassion. And no one needs to be purposefully cruel.

Edited by loveliberate
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I think its part of the system...in poor countries most people don't care...meaning most aren't nice to animals and most aren't mean. In more modern(financially) countries people are taught to treat(non livestock) animals well and people rebel against it...kinda like telling a kid not to touch a stove. Lack of compassion seems to exhist most where there is compassion...where there is neither its better because animals(so called non food animals) are just left alone.

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Many are more concerned with their own survival and the survival of loved ones- they do not have the luxury of caring about other beings.

 

Gaawd does that argument get old. All I am going to do here is to state what should be beyond question: like LL said, nobody, **nobody** needs to be intentionally cruel. In that regard, you are wrong - compassion is not a luxury that only the privileged have; compassion is a moral imperative that the human race cannot afford to live without. To dismiss it as a "luxury" is to dismiss humanity's only hope for survival.

 

**Everybody** should strive to be as compassionate as they can under their particular circumstances. To some, like veganpotter suggested, that may not be veganism, but everybody should be as kind as possible under their circumstances nevertheless. It is no coincidence that almost every spiritual, religious, etc etc path, journey, teaching, etc always comes back to compassion. Having said that, I just cant muster up even just an ioda of compassion for sadist f**ks that torture animals for fun, and even less sadist animal abusers.

 

When you see the horrible things humans are capable of doing to fellow human beings, is it really a surprise that they are capable of those same atrocities against animals?

 

Nobody in this thread said they were surprised by the atrocities committed by humans against animals. I said I was not desensitized to it. Being surprised and sensitized/devastated are two different things.

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If people didn't have the terrible dietary education that they do all over the world...caring for you family would mean eating a healthy more vegetable based(most preferbably completely) diet...which in the rest of the world is most often a more affordable diet. Animal abuse aside, caring(for poor people) means conserving as much as you can and trying to do the best with what you have...seeing what people with more money can afford to eat is not one of those things. As for the being suprised.

 

***I'm not at all suprised at how cruel humans are to animals(as so many humans don't even know how to love their own children)...I am however extremely suprised at how stupid they(99% of the modern world) are in thinking a meat based diet is a healthier way to live life. This will always suprise me

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Wow, I kinda figured on some of those responses...

Having worked with refugees I know a little something about priveledge...if we consider "veganism" as not merely a diet, but a cruelty free life style (as has been argued on this site) than it most definately is a luxury. I know that a plant based diet is far cheaper and more effecient than a meat based one, most of the poor of the world consider meat a luxury, but I also know we live a society where we are HIGHLY sensitized to death! When is the last time you and your sister were gang raped and left for dead by 50 + soldiers? When did you last see your child, wife, husband lying with their throats slit in a pool of blood? How about your aunt hacked to death with a machete?I doubt you ever have...I use to work with people who came from those backgrounds in Rwanda, Bosnia, Somolia and a few other garden spots of the world. All those were TRUE experiiences for peiople I worked with. It it was not surprising that almost all worked here at IBP -that's Iowa Beef Procesors for those unaware. Killing and "processing" cattle was no problem for these people because they grew up around death! I was highly disturbed at first, but I grew to understand the nature that allows a person to devalue life. Some people need to realize that some people have it far worse than not being able to get their soy mocha at Starbucks!

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[quote name='"compassionategirl

I just cant muster up even just an ioda of compassion for sadist f**ks that torture animals for fun' date=' and even less sadist animal abusers.

 

Wow Compassionate girl, aren't you aware that most cruel behavior is learned and that the most cruel and violent people were themselves the victims of cruel and violent treatment. They are themselves victims....Jeez, where's your compassion?

 

Of course we should strive to create a compassionate world...but we must do so in recognition of our priviledged status...not all had the good fortune to be raised in kind and nurturing households...some of those people deserve a little patience and understanding...and some deserve a hellacious beating, but I'm not sure if I can make the distinction...I'm definately no longer a pacifist, (did I mention I use to be a Quaker?) but I recognize some of pacifism's merits

Edited by karlhubris
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I realized I should clarify something because undoubtedly some jerk will say " You worked at IBP with refugees?! How could you kill animals?!"- NO! I did not work at IBP, I worked with refugees teaching them English with a refugee relocation program...I came to realize that somewhere along the line IBP worked out a deal to have them work in the slaughterhouse. IBP not only specializes in killing animals but also hardcore worker exploitation. Unfortunately it was the only work many could get. I know, I know...I should have told them they were heartless murderers and I was glad that people who killed animals experienced the atrocities they had in there native countries, you know the torture, rape and genocide... but I couldn't bring myself to do it. I think that might be called compassion, but I'm not the expert...

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Surely those people are raised terribly and I have family that has not experienced that but I do have family that were in Japanese concentration camps and there are lots of stories of starvation, violent killings and rape...but off of we have americans here growing up from all types of backgrounds doing terribly cruel things to animals(so called good upbringings and bad upbringings), and honestly the the most sensative(not the most compasionate) people I know were abused for years by family. Its all in how you take it. As for time and patience thats a tuffy...once you learn compassion you shouldn't wean yourself off of the cruelty you commit. What if you had a friend that had the urge to rape a new person every day...would you be OK if he weaned himself of 5 less rape victims a month...I don't think so.

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Once again I think the context has been lost...we are fortunate to have the leisure time to think about issues outside our own direct quest for survival. If we fail to recognize that we fail to comprehend our place in the struggle. We fail to see that others may have a more difficult journey than ourselves.

I currently work at the SPCA and we have juvenille "delinquents" working off community service with us...this one particular 13 year old girl has a disturbing violent past, she is very kind to the animals tho. She gets it, she knows how much it sucks to be unwanted, abused and locked up--she can empathize. Some others fail to make that connection and instead choose to abuse (pardon the rhyme).

As far as countries go--we are fortunate- we can chat and propose ideas about compassion on-line, maybe in a coffee shop or at a gathering, maybe even read a book. Please don't forget, ALL of those are considered leisure activities! While I'm arguing my point someone else is wondering if they will ever eat again!! And if they have to eat an ostrich egg or a fish, because its all they can find, I doubt they will worry about the philosophical consequences of their actions.

C'mon folks, it's really not that complex of an issue!

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What if you had a friend that had the urge to rape a new person every day...would you be OK if he weaned himself of 5 less rape victims a month...I don't think so.

 

As far as I know I have no rapist friends...I tend not to associate with those kinda folks...

 

You do remember that this is a vegan site and I am vegan, right? I am just as concerned with how to promote a compassionate lifestyle as anyone else. And I think part of that strategy should include an understanding that some people (probably 90% on this site) have it easier than some folks. I think that comparing the strategy of "converting" a rapist to someone who has been raped (by dozens of soldiers mind you) is a bit, well...outta touch. Those particular sisters are dealing with alot of their own pain, I don't want to push my issues on them. But if the opportunity arose....of course I would share ideas with them. I just don't think they are as receptive to them when they still are dealing with their own suffering. It just seems kinda pretentious and callous to say to them " Yea, I know you went through alot, but that's nothing compared to the slaughter of animals"...wow, what a way to negate/reject their suffering!

 

But that aside, those people may empathize more, but on their terms, not mine!

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While I'm arguing my point someone else is wondering if they will ever eat again!! And if they have to eat an ostrich egg or a fish, because its all they can find, I doubt they will worry about the philosophical consequences of their actions.

C'mon folks, it's really not that complex of an issue!

 

Your right it isnt complex and I really dont understand what the disagreement is here. The point is that if they eat an ostrich egg or a fish, but is ISNT "all they could find," then they have the "luxury" of making the kind choice to forego the ostrich egg or fish. And so they should.

 

The stats show that there is a positive correlation between increased wealth and increased meat consumption. In other words, people in poorer countries eat meat only as they grow richer or less poor. So as somebody mentioned, it seems that veg*ism is something that is totally within the reach of many of the world's poor (which you suggest dont have the "luxury" to be compassionate). In fact, they have little other choice. And they do have the choice to refrain from setting a puppy on fire, so again, there is no excuse.

 

This whole discussion reminds me of the defence of poor poor migrant workers that "have no choice" but to work in slaugherhouses to feed their families. That compassion is a "luxury" they just dont have. Or the poor sealers who have no other choice than to butcher baby seals to death to feed their famlies, which the other privileged Canadians dont understand.

 

My father immigrated to Canada from Turkey before I was born. His father died when he was 8, and being the eldest son in a **dirt** poor family, he had to drop out of public school at age 8 and start working to feed the family. ***He had to make his own shoes from cardboard boxes he found in the streets.*** Back then, there existed to a much lesser extent organizations like World Vision, etc. that try to alleviate some of the poverty, and you didnt have concerts like Live 8 back then either. Nor did you have ghastly organizations like Heifer International. And on top of the hardships that came from being WAY below the poverty line, they were Armenians living in Turkey so their lives were in danger every minute of every day.

 

When he moved to Canada, he spoke not a word of English and came with $2 dollars in his pocket. He had two kids. He managed. The whole time, back in Turkey and in Canada, my dad somehow managed to find the "luxury" of not working in a slaughterhouse to feed his family.

 

 

I know what poverty is. I come from poverty. I ** DO NOT** subscribe to the argument that poverty precludes decent treatment of animals. I will restate what I said before, compassion is NOT a luxury. That is not the same thing as saying that everybody in all circumstances and at all times and in all places can always be vegan. But just because somebody cant be vegan, it doesnt mean they get a free pass with respect to decent and kind treatment of animals. And it makes me ***cringe*** when I see or hear people trying to carve out exceptions to circumscribe this human moral imperative, or to "put it into context." No context inevitably needs to be devoid of compassion for animlas.

 

Regarding your argument "many animal torturers had a rough emotional life, etc etc so there may be extenuating circumstances. Where is your compassion, compassionategirl?", again, there are **plenty** of people that have been through emotional hell and back, but they dont get drunk and set puppies on fire. My compassion has its limits, and where it stops, misanthropy begins.

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You know, the whole point is...we sit here and "philosophize" and talk about ways to be more compassionate-that is a luxury, a use of leisure time to contemplate...my point was, poor countries often don't think about animal welfare/protection laws (remember how this started) because often times they have (percieved) bigger problems...like clean, running water...electricity...little things like that. Sometimes something less extreme, like maybe AIDS...And the people...I"M NOT JUSTIFYING IT, ONLY RECOGNIZING IT ...often do not think of animal welfare as a high priority. And people who come from f**ked up social/family/societal backgrounds often care less about animals because of their own negative experiences.

Good for you and your family to survive poverty...I suppose the whole time your dad was struggling with those card board shoes he insisted that you all be vegan...that was at the top of his list, am I right? And while you were in Turkey, as Armenians, in mortal danger every day, the first thing you thought of every morning was " How can I ease animal suffering?" That is the point-I'm not excusing animal abuse, but trying to figure it out so as to address it properly.

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Cruelty laws don't prevent cruelty to animals...they only punish people once its too late....just as child molestation. Its not like illegalizing animal cruelty in third world countries will stop it in anyway whatsoever...hell look how hard it is to keep people from killing elephants...wardens are alowed to shoot poachers on sight and despite that only 1 region of protected elephants are doing well in terms of population and control of poachers.

You can think of food more than anything if your poor and starving(and of course you should) without wasting the energy to beat the crap out of animals so you need to waste more money on food because you just wasted all your energy.

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You know, the whole point is...we sit here and "philosophize" and talk about ways to be more compassionate-that is a luxury, a use of leisure time to contemplate...my point was, poor countries often don't think about animal welfare/protection laws (remember how this started) because often times they have (percieved) bigger problems...like clean, running water...electricity...little things like that. Sometimes something less extreme, like maybe AIDS...And the people...I"M NOT JUSTIFYING IT, ONLY RECOGNIZING IT ...often do not think of animal welfare as a high priority. And people who come from f**ked up social/family/societal backgrounds often care less about animals because of their own negative experiences.

 

Okay, so what are you recognizing? That some countries do not think about animal welfare? Agreed. Some countries dont think about animal welfare. But what is your point? If you claim that they dont think about animal welfare because it is a luxury they cant afford, [and that is what you said earlier], then that sounds to me like a justification of it, not "only" a recognition of it. And that is where you and I differ. Treating animals kindly is something that people shouldnt be given a free pass on. I have already stated that in some instances, compassionate treatment cannot always = veganism, but compassionate treatment should never be "waived" just becaused full blown veganism is not possible under the circumstances.

 

 

Good for you and your family to survive poverty...I suppose the whole time your dad was struggling with those card board shoes he insisted that you all be vegan...that was at the top of his list, am I right?

 

You keep bringing this back to veganism when I am talking about the decent treatment of animals. The original question that spurred this debate is whether people in Mexico were generally kind to the strays, or whether they viewed them as vermon to be eliminated. So we werent originally talking about veganism - we were talking about needlessly being cruel to animals. There is **never** any reason or justification to be gratuitously cruel.

 

 

My dad wasnt and isnt vegan because he believes that animals are put on earth for us to eat. Whether he is dirt poor or filthy rich, that is what his paradigm is and that has nothing to do with how much money he has or doesnt have. So, no, "while he was struggling with his cardboard shoes," as you so sensitively put it, he didnt insist anybody be vegan. But he didnt use his poverty as an excuse to be intentionally or gratuitously cruel to "non food" animals (while struggling with his cardboard shoes, in other words, he was as compassionate as any omni could be). I can assure you he didnt kick the stray dogs in Turkey or set any kittens on fire because he was too pre-occupied with more important matters of survival to take the time or thought to refrain from being cruel to animals.

 

And while you were in Turkey, as Armenians, in mortal danger every day, the first thing you thought of every morning was " How can I ease animal suffering?"

 

Just because an individual has more important concerns of self-preservation and survival on their plate, that doesnt mean that that individual should get a free pass on animal kindness, or that he should be excused for **thoughtlessly** subjecting animals to gratuitous suffering.

 

I really dont understand why this point needs to be debated or defended. It seems pretty self-evident to me.

 

 

 

That is the point-I'm not excusing animal abuse, but trying to figure it out so as to address it properly.

 

Well, to me your earlier posts in this thread sounded like you were doing more than just probing it, it sounds like you were trying to rationalize/justify it, under certain circumstances. I know you are vegan, and that this is a vegan forum, but just because somebody is vegan, that doesnt mean that they think other people should be too, or just because somebody is kind to animals, that doesnt mean that they believe that other people should be too. Some of the strictest vegans I know are moral relativists.

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Like I said...some countries/people view animal welfare a bit lower on their priority list...I didn't say anything about excusing abuse...I merely recognized that people who have to resort to wearing cardboard shoes may think less of abusing animals than someone who has the leisure time to contemplate philisophical ideals...sorry...animal rights is a philosophical ideal...much as human rights was /is in parts of the world...but perhaps you're right...this site has nothing to do with luxury, priviledge or leisure...after all...consuming 8,000 calories per day, protein bars, hours in the gym each day, and travels across the country/world to meet up with other vegans have nothing to do with leisure...they're necesities...

 

If I recall, I merely stated we should feel grateful for the luxury we have to contemplate and act upon ideas of compassion...I guess I shouldn't be grateful...

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