Straight edge?

[ronnie kray]

I think abortion should probably get it’s own thread.

 

recent scientific evidence also suggests that small amounts of alcohol daily reduce the likelihood of atherosclerosis, heart attack and stroke. '

Like I said before, the benefits of wine can be obtained from eating grapes. You can have those health benefits in a myriad of other ways. And I when I ask someone why they are drinking, the answer is never “to reduce my risk of atherosclerosis”.

 

also, the moderation they are talking about is 4 to 8 ounces daily. more than that and you start reaping the negative side effects. a pint is already 16 ounces. and how many people stop at one pint?

 

all the dangers are based on you necking one beer after another until you cant stand.

yes, because that is the way most people who drink do it. Most people are not moderate like you are. You are making the mistake of thinking everyone practices the same habits you do.

 

my one major experience of american culture (one god awful month is fort worth and local area, though nyc last year was great) left me with the impression that it is really a culture of extremes. on the one hand you have religious zealots preaching that you will go to hell if you have sex before marriage,

extremism becomes a problem when you try to push it on someone else. I have never tried to recruit anybody to my habits (like you are trying to get people to switch to yours). They make that decision for themselves. And only in a world so saturated with alcohol and drugs can straight edge be considered an “extremist” lifestyle.

 

all im really saying is that closing yourself off to any alcohol isnt going to stop people abusing it

and being vegan doesn’t really stop other people from eating meat. So why don’t you just join them too and start eating meat. In moderation, of course.

 

rather than saying 'ill never drink alcohol', an apporach of 'ill have a drink with you, only if you dont get drunk'

man, does it really bother you that much to be around someone who doesn’t drink? I can be the only person in the room not drinking, and it doesn’t bother me at all. Why does it bother you if some guy isn’t sharing your habits. Can you not drink alone? If not, maybe you should re-evaluate the reasons behind your drinking.

 

abstaining from it doesnt benefit you

That is a ridiculous comment. As has already been established not drinking has lots of benefits. The only benefits you can source from drinking is the same ones you can obtain from other sources that don’t carry the side effects of alcohol.

 

you deny yourself a world of opportunity as regards exploring different wines, ales and beers.

Honestly, you are starting to sound ridiculous. Your making alcohol out to be the greatest thing in the world. And if we don’t drink we are missing out on the glorious thing. What opportunities are we really missing? There are other ways to have a good time. Some people feel the need for a few depressants to relax. But I don’t need it to loosen up and drop my inhibitions. When I get together with my friends we always have a good time and I never drink.

 

This is the pressure that we are talking about. People perpetuating the feeling that if you don’t drink, something must be wrong with you. “I do it, so you should too. You will like it, just try it.” I feel like I am in high school again. Well I will not be pressured into drinking. I’m not a child. I’m a grown ass man, I know what I like and don’t like.

 

its fascinating the craft that goes into creating these drinks, and i look forward to exploring them

I am glad you find them fascinating. And I will not attempt to hinder your exploration or change your mind. Why try to change mine?

[jonathan]

discussing this with you ronnie is hard as you are not listening to me.

 

i do not advocate heavy drinking. i hate being drunk, have not been for over two years, and i will never be drunk again. the 4-8oz refers to wine, which is 2-3times stronger than beer.

 

'Government drinking guidelines

The 1992 White Paper Health of the Nation suggested that men should consume no more than 21 and women no more than 14 units of alcohol per week. [Go to reference 9]. (A unit is 10ml of pure alcohol.) The Health Education Authority has recommended these guidelines since 1987.

 

In 1995, in recognition of the specific risks of excessive drinking in a single session, the sensible drinking message was changed to focus on daily guidelines. It suggests:

- a maximum intake of 2-3 units per day for women and 3-4 for men, with two alcohol-free days after heavy drinking; continued alcohol consumption at the upper level is not advised

 

- that intake of up to two units a day can have a moderate protective effect against heart disease for men over 40 and post-menopausal women'

 

 

if you say that i should start to eat meat because i drink one more time i will get nasty. there is no parallel to be drawn - drinking small amounts of alcohol harms no one and nothing, eating even a small amount of meat kills animals. i find it really offensive that you think i should eat meat for such a ridiculous reason.

 

it does not bother me one bit that people dont drink - one of my school friends wasnt drinking, and many of my vegan friends choose not to drink. i simply find these arguments for alcohol being highly toxic quite ridiculous. i do occasionally drink alone, in the same way you would have a glass of orange on your own. i really dont think about it - its only a very fine tasting drink at the end of the day.

 

i am not making beer and wine out to be the greatest things in the world, only that i enjoy experiencing new things. with such a world of opportunity i regard it as narrow minded to close yourself off to something that could taste really good. i also think the same way about fruit, veg, breads, olives, coffees pastas and just about everything else.

 

at the end of the day mate, if you dont want to drink, its your choice, but dont assume that everyone who drinks is a drunk, and all alcohol tastes like shite, cos it doesnt.

 

jonathan

[Richard]

I don't think ronnie was comparing eating meat to drinking. When you said that abstaining from alcohol doesn't stop other people from drinking, he replied saying that being vegan doesn't stop other people from eating meat. I think he was saying that neither thing is meant to affect other people; abstaining from alcohol isn't meant to get other people to stop, and veganism isn't meant to get other people to be vegan. It's just what one person feels they want or should be doing. I could be wrong though. Drinking alcohol and eating meat can't be compared on a moral basis at all.

[michaelhobson]

all the dangers are based on you necking one beer after another until you cant stand.

yes, because that is the way most people who drink do it. Most people are not moderate like you are. You are making the mistake of thinking everyone practices the same habits you do.

 

I really don't think you know "most people who drink". I would guess that most people who drink do so in moderation, don't drive cars after and harm noone. Perhaps that's why you aren't aware of them?

 

at the end of the day mate, if you dont want to drink, its your choice, but dont assume that everyone who drinks is a drunk, and all alcohol tastes like shite, cos it doesnt

 

An excellent summary.

[CollegeB]

of the people that I know who drink (and who are friends of mine) dont drink in moderation. They drink to get drunk, but i'm in a college town and they all believe that sort of thing in college is "normal" behavior. Johnathan is there a drinking age in scottland?

[jonathan]

yes. its 18 throughout the UK. that said, if you look older you can get served at some bars and pubs from the age of 16 or so.

 

jonathan

[CollegeB]

thanks.

[michaelhobson]

yes. its 18 throughout the UK. that said, if you look older you can get served at some bars and pubs from the age of 16 or so.

 

jonathan

 

One very positive thing in the UK for drinkers and everyone really is the public transit system. You can get almost anywhere at almost any time of day without need of driving. Most pubs that I saw there did not have parking lots like they do in the US. You don't see the pub closing and masses of drunks heading out to their cars. Really cuts down on the drunk driving problem.

[ronnie kray]

whole anti alcohol argument is that i find it indefenseable unless you really dont like it.

indefensible? Why should I have to defend it? To defend something, it implies that there is something wrong with it in the first place. Sobriety is not a crime, and straight edge is not a bad thing to be. and yes, i really don't like it.

 

and don’t say all alcohol tastes like shite, cos it doesnt.

“sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, I’ll never know because I wouldn’t eat the filthy motherfucker”*10 points* if you know where that is from.

 

You know, I don’t like the taste of coffee either. Someone suggested I try some cappuccino, frappucino, lattes, etc. I did, and it tasted different. But it still resembled coffee to much and I couldn’t enjoy it.

 

The point is, unless this is like radically different beer, I don’t think I am going to enjoy it. Maybe European beers don’t taste as bad as American ones (I’ll have to take your word on it) but is it really all that different. It’s still beer. Is this strawberry flavored beer or something?

 

Besides, like I said from the beginning, taste is not the only one reason I stopped drinking. There are other reasons that have not even been touched upon in this entire thread.

 

but dont assume that everyone who drinks is a drunk

i do not advocate heavy drinking. i hate being drunk, have not been for over two years, and i will never be drunk again.

I applaud you for that, and I have from the beginning. Look back at all the posts and I consistently point out that these things don’t apply to you. I have even gone on record saying that there should be more like you. Moderation is ideal, but even you must admit that moderation is not something everyone can do. In your own story you said you were the only sober one among your friends that night you went out.

 

'Government drinking guidelines

I don’t know how they do it where you are from, but here where I live, following your guidelines will make a person is legally intoxicated. It has been determined (over here) that two drinks is enough to slow your reflexes and impair your driving ability. That may seem extreme to you, but it was put in effect because there was a real problem with alcohol here, and lots of drunk driving accicdents. And the fact is the majority of people who are caught driving while intoxicated are NOT alcoholics or binge drinking. But they are still in a position to tremendous damage to people around them.

 

My other issue with guidelines and health benefits is that some people (not you) will see that and see it as a license to drink all night. Some people will hear that and say “you heard the man, drinking is good for you. Let’s get smashed!”

 

if you say that i should start to eat meat because i drink one more time i will get nasty. there is no parallel to be drawn

easy tiger. Take a deep breath, count to ten. This is a civilized debate. Chill out, have a beer.

 

No I was not trying to say that meat and beer go hand in hand, or if you do one you should do the other. Nor was I comparing them at a moral level. What I was doing was showing that the reason you gave in that instance is not a good reason to drink. Look, we gave up meat, but it doesn’t stop other people from eating it. When you really think about it, us being vegan doesn’t really stop any of those animals in the slaughterhouse from being killed. There are even some people that say a small portion of meat daily will not harm you. But is that a reason for us to give in and have a steak? Of course not. Similarly, just because I can not stop another person from abusing alcohol, that is not a valid reason for me to have a beer. See?

 

Another reason I keep bringing that up is that I notice a lot of the reasons people give me for eating meat are the same ones they give me for drinking. For example:

- it tastes good

- you don’t know what you are missing

- in moderation it won’t hurt you (in both cases moderation is rarely practiced)

- you are just supposed to do it.

- a real man eats meat/drinks beer

 

I’m not saying that it’s the same thing, I am just saying none of those are really good reasons to do it in either case. Funny thing though, the way you feel when you think someone is trying to get you to eat meat, that is the same way I feel when I feel someone is trying to get me to drink a beer. Think about that next time you want to tell me to have a pint.

 

What other people do with their bodies is beyond my control. But I don’t have to participate along with them. Like the song goes, “you can’t change the world but you can change yourself”.

*20 points* if you know what song that is.

 

i find it really offensive that you think i should eat meat for such a ridiculous reason.

I find it equally ridiculous that I should drink a beer because it tastes good. Like I said long ago, experiences form people’s opinions on certain matters. If I grew up among more moderate drinkers, I may not have this outlook. But I did grow up here and I do have a lot of negative experiences. I feel from my experiences that alcohol does more bad than good, and I will not participate in it, not even because it may taste good. These maybe just meaningless statistics to you, but they hit very close to home for me. Until you have walked in my shoes you really can’t tell me how I should feel.

 

with such a world of opportunity i regard it as narrow minded to close yourself off to something that could taste really good.

at the end of the day mate, if you dont want to drink, its your choice,

yes that’s right. And you should respect that choice and not keep telling to try a beer. I have been more tolerant of your views than you have been of mine. I never once said you were a bad person for drinking or ever tried to get you to stop. But you have in more than one post insisted I have a beer, because I don’t know what I am talking about and you know more than I do. So who is really being narrow minded here?

 

To try to end this on an up note, I still think I could get along with any of you here, as long as you don’t try to pressure me into drinking. It won’t work, and will just aggravate the both of us. And there aren’t enough vegans in the world for us to be fighting amongst each other. So from here on out, we will just have to agree to disagree on this topic. Fair deal?

[jonathan]

fair enough. in a social situation i would never pressure anyone to drink btw

 

in the uk, the guidelines are healthy limits for your body, not for driving. you can only really have a half pint before you are considered intoxicated for driving purposes.

 

i respect your viewpoint but find it sad that your environment has is such that drinking is onlyseen as a method to get drunk.

 

jonathan

[xjasonedgex]

This is a really LONG thread and I can't read it all...but I am straightedge. I have been straightedge and vegan for roughly 13 years.

[CollegeB]

Anyone go to bars which serve vegan food?

[brendan]

I've been surprised to find a number of pubs with food labeled "vegan" on the menu - in the most unexpected places, too. I had the best vegan burger of my life (seriously) at a pub in Cape Girardeau, Missouri.

[brendan]

my one major experience of american culture (one god awful month is fort worth and local area, though nyc last year was great) left me with the impression that it is really a culture of extremes. on the one hand you have religious zealots preaching that you will go to hell if you have sex before marriage, and on the other there are thousands of girls dropping out of school to have kids as no one will have an abortion. you have huge alcohol abuse, widespread throughout society (as we also have in places here) yet also i have met loads of straight edgers there(most of you are americans on this thread). you have seriously curtailed social freedom (O.T.T. police force, massive gun ownership) yet many of the best peaceful communes are in the US.

my impression was of a primarily reactionary culture, one of serious extremes, with no middle ground. maybe rather than saying 'ill never drink alcohol', an apporach of 'ill have a drink with you, only if you dont get drunk' would be more appropriate. that way the extremes of culture can meet.

 

I think your perception of American culture might have been slightly skewed by visiting two drastically different cities - Fort Worth and New York City.

 

Americans typically are seen as eschewing extremes and despise being perceived in any way as radical. We are, in fact, experiencing a period of heightened polarization, but the very nature of our political system is to appeal to moderates, and the culture tends to reflect that. If we are perceived as reactionary, that is likely a symptom of living in a duopolistic political climate.

[michaelhobson]

Anyone go to bars which serve vegan food?

 

Yes, my favorite bar serves vegan chili.

[ronnie kray]

i respect your viewpoint but find it sad that your environment has is such that drinking is only seen as a method to get drunk.

 

jonathan

 

well that's something we can both agree on. i think it's sad too.

 

maybe someday you can take me to one of those pubs with vegan burgers and chili. sounds delicious, i am so there. there ain't no places like that around here, your lucky to get peanuts.

 

so did i stump everybody?

“sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, I’ll never know because I wouldn’t eat the filthy motherfucker”

*10 points* if you know where that is from.

 

Like the song goes, “you can’t change the world but you can change yourself”.

*20 points* if you know what song that is.

these question are worth a combination of 30 points.

no takers?