veg pets maybe not.

[jonzen]

Michaelhobson wrote:

 

Why not address any of the issues I mentioned in my previous post? I think keeping dogs as pets is cruel and unusual punishment. A dog's greatest joy in life is running, sniffing, pissing and breeding. If I were a dog, I would choose a week of freedom and being run over by a car over being fat and lazy and sticking my head out of the SUV window once in a while.

 

Michael, you are welcome to ask my dog, Phoebe, what she prefers to do. From what I can determine from her behavior, she seems to want to spend most all of her time with me. (I know, according to your view, this is cruel treatment) It sounds to me as if you are projecting your thoughts and feelings on theoretical dogs. I think one would be wiser to take case by case. One would have to ask each dog separately, I don't think it is fair to assume one knows what all animals want.

 

You have a wonderful talent for raising my temperature.

 

And I just returned from 3 hours of meditation!

[Rawj]

nvm

Edited June 28, 2007 by Rawj

[Guest]

Surely your dog may prefer raw meat but think about this...to sustain your dogs life it is not only taking the life of one animal it is taking the lives of many over the years and your dog couldn't kill a single one of those animals on its own with the exception of maybe a chicken...or if your dog is large a small pig...but then dogs aren't supposed to eat pork anyway. These animals being eaten are not living the natural way they should be and you are only more comfortable doing this because the meat isn't for you but really it is because your dog keeps you happy. If you had a guest stay with you at your house and he had to have help eating(hypothetical...could be any reason or none) would you give him or her raw meat because they like it more than vegetables...I highly doubt it.

[Richard]

You are projecting your own lifestyle/beliefs on a pet by feeding them at all, regardless of what you are feeding them. There is no way to know if your pet would have killed and eaten something that day, what it would have killed and eaten, or if it would have happened upon a veggie or trash heap or road kill that it preferred for the day.

 

Equally absurd is the animals that pets are being fed in the name of keeping their 'natural' diet. When is the last time you saw a dog take down a cow or a full-grown pig? There are some larger breeds that could accomplish it, but a cow or pig would kick most dogs asses. Then again, dogs are pack animals. Are you going to get a pack for your dog to socialize and hunt with?

 

And cats!!! Same goes for cats, especially the seafood!!! What's up with that??? When is the last time you saw a cat catch a fish? Much less a 300 pound deep sea dwelling tuna!

 

That's very true and I've said the same thing many times to people. If their aim is to recreate a 'natural' life for an animal, and they want them to have a natural diet, then first they should research what the animal's natural diet would have been. Certainly not anything on sale these days. Additionally, like I keep saying, even if you did find mouse meat or something in a can, those mice have died unnatural deaths in a factory or whatever - why doesn't anybody comment on the hundreds of animals which are killed due to the choices of pet owners? It's different if you were to release a cat into the wild, because then it's the wild. When you have a mouse farming factory, then it removes any form of nature.

[JW]

You have a wonderful talent for raising my temperature.

 

And I just returned from 3 hours of meditation!

 

Well jonzen, Buddhist teachings consider exchanges like these to be an opportunity to practice one's path

patience without anger. I find it difficult at times.

[michaelhobson]

Michael, you are welcome to ask my dog, Phoebe, what she prefers to do. From what I can determine from her behavior, she seems to want to spend most all of her time with me. (I know, according to your view, this is cruel treatment) It sounds to me as if you are projecting your thoughts and feelings on theoretical dogs. I think one would be wiser to take case by case. One would have to ask each dog separately, I don't think it is fair to assume one knows what all animals want.

 

You have a wonderful talent for raising my temperature.

 

And I just returned from 3 hours of meditation!

 

I would be happy to ask Phoebe what she wants. I get along quite well with most dogs. Dogs are in fact very loyal to humans who feed them, she probably does want to spend time with you. That may not be the only reason, but it certainly is a powerful motivator. I spend a substantial amount of time at my place of employment. It's not because I love the place, it's beacause that is how I get food and other life necessities.

 

What if Phoebe would have had the chance to live a normal dog life, raised with her brothers and sisters in a pack setting. What if she knew the freedom of living in the wild. What if she had the confidence of knowing she and her pack could provide their own food? Would she still choose to be with you? Try leaving your door open for a month and stop feeding her. Will she stay?

 

I don't think I am pojecting my thoughts and feelings on to theoretical dogs. It may sound that way because we are both stuck in a people-centric consumer society. I am basing my dog opinions on the dozens of dogs I have known, some only in passing, others for months or decades. I don't think it is necessary to ask every individual dog, to come up with a general idea of what motivates and satisfies a dog.

 

Jonzen, if I'm going to raise your temperature, hopefully it would be something more interesting than a dog food debate.

 

PS I just remembered the favorite food of a dog I recently spent almost two years helping to care for. Cat Shit! She could start sniffing it out from a block away until she locked on to her target and devoured it. She would eat herself sick if she found a big stash.

[michaelhobson]

Well jonzen, Buddhist teachings consider exchanges like these to be an opportunity to practice one's path

patience without anger. I find it difficult at times.

 

Stop buying meat for dogs and kids. Your Karma will improve and you will find your path has suddenly become clearer.

[jonzen]

I feel as though I have paddled into the deep end here. I have a great deal to think about. Please excuse me. I need a break.

[JW]

Well jonzen, Buddhist teachings consider exchanges like these to be an opportunity to practice one's path

patience without anger. I find it difficult at times.

 

Stop buying meat for dogs and kids. Your Karma will improve and you will find your path has suddenly become clearer.

 

 

Would you care to clarify this statement?

Is it a general comment or directed at me?

[Evan]

ummm... hmm pets...I consider things closely when I decide to take on a pet. I think my dogs love their lives, more or less. I think I do right by them and would do even moreso if I took them the vegan route. It's something I intend to do but haven't seemed to do enough research yet. One pet I will never have is a caged bird UNLESS it was a rescued bird who had already been clipped. I just can't see a bird being happy in a cage.

[CollegeB]

Evan would it make a difference about the bird if you let it out of the cage when you were home, and the cage was only for the bird when you go to work?

[SiNa94]

If experience shows that dogs thrive on vegan diets, I don't see what the problem is in that arena. If it were their choice they would either starve or eat what you provided in most cases. Even if there were enough trash or small animals for one dog to eat... once everyone decides that their dogs should have a choice... there would just be too much competition. Why feel bad about feeding them a healthy diet? Would you feel bad rationing a childs sweets and making sure they ate their veggies?

 

And maybe it's just because I grew up in rural and suburban areas where my cats were able to come and go as they please... but they always brought me bits and pieces left over from the birds and rodents they'd eaten. Animals eat each other... that's just a fact of life. Unlike humans, they only kill what they need. If you can put a cat in an environment where they can catch everything they need, or supplement their diet with vegan food, I don't see what the problem is. Of course, I no longer have any pets (they were, unfortunately, left at my father's house... and I haven't seen my father in almost 2 years) and I was not vegan at the time, so they were not fed vegan diets.

 

As far as keeping pets as a vegan goes... it's definitely a tricky little conundrum. I know the majority of the pets I've had have either been adopted from shelters (the last cat I adopted was less than 24 hours away from being euthanized) or were strays that were taken in. I think there's definitely something noble in giving those animals a second chance. Of course, I've also always lived in a setting where animals could come and go as they pleased (in to get out of the cold, out to bask in the sun, etc.). I think the protective nature animals have toward their humans is a testament to the powerful relationship a human and their companion animal can share. I had one cat that would always follow me to school when I was younger to "make sure I got there alright" (at least that's what I'd like to think). And there are always stories of dogs saving people, etc.

 

Besides... I think we're missing something here when we say we should just let animals run loose and "live naturally" instead of caging them up in houses. We keep ourselves caged up in houses don't we? Don't we enjoy the warmth, shelter, and security that a house provides (for the most part)? I don't see anyone here saying that we should "allow" humans to live a natural life outside facing the elements without clothing or shelter. Companion animals want to enjoy the same comforts we have. When my cats wanted in, they came in. When they wanted out, they went out. That isn't a choice they would have had if they were living a "natural life".

 

Some animals are mistreated. But, for the most part they seem happy to play the part of "pet". Even if they are only happy to see you because you feed them... they are obviously making a choice to sacrifice any "freedom" they could have had in order to obtain the nourishment and affection you provide... just as we do, or should, sacrifice our time and energy to make the relationship mutually beneficial.

 

My two cents...

[Guest]

People volunteer to be caged in houses...they don't need to be.

Animals on the other hand will hurt wildlife if they aren't native and will cause more harm to more animals than just causing good to them(assuming its even good to let a shitsu out in the wild).