The New McCarthyism

[Jay]

MORGANTOWN, W.Va. - May 5, the day that changed Aliakbar and Shahla Afshari's lives, began like most others. They shared coffee, dropped their 12-year-old son off at Cheat Lake Middle School here, then drove to their laboratories at the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health, a federal agency that studies workplace hazards.

 

But that afternoon, their managers pulled the Afsharis aside and delivered a stunning message: they had failed secret background checks and were being fired. No explanations were offered and no appeals allowed. They were escorted to the door and told not to return.

 

Mrs. Afshari, a woman not prone to emotional flourishes, says she stood in the parking lot and wept. "I just wanted to know why," she said.

 

Seven months later, the Afsharis, Shiite Muslims who came from Iran 18 years ago to study, then stayed to build careers and raise three children, still have no answers.

 

They have been told they were fired for national security reasons that remain secret. When their lawyer requested the documents used to justify the action, he was told none existed. When he asked for copies of the agency's policies relating to the background checks, he received a generic personnel handbook.

 

Without any official explanations of why they failed their background checks, they came up with their own theory: their attendance, more than five years ago, at two conventions of a Persian student association that has come under F.B.I. scrutiny, once with a man who was later investigated by the bureau.

 

The Afsharis' case comes at time when immigrants from many nations, but particularly Islamic ones, are facing tougher scrutiny from government agencies.

 

Unable to clear their names or find new employment in their field, the Afsharis on Thursday resorted to that most American of recourses: they sued the institute and its parent agencies, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and the Department of Health and Human Services, demanding back pay and reinstatement or the chance to appeal.

 

The Afsharis, who passed background checks when they were hired - he in 1996, she in 1997 - were not even aware of the new reviews until they were told that they had failed.

 

In their suit, they do not question the government's right to conduct background checks. But their lawyers contend that the Kafkaesque nature of the process - in which the rules were unclear and perhaps unwritten - has made it impossible for them to defend themselves.

 

"How can we expect the people of the Middle East to emulate our democratic ideals abroad when we fail to apply those ideals to people like the Afsharis here?" asked Allan N. Karlin, a lawyer in Morgantown who, along with chapters of the American Civil Liberties Union in West Virginia and Washington, is representing the couple.

 

The Centers for Disease Control has said the Afsharis were not singled out because of their ethnic background, asserting that other Iranians and Muslims have faced similar background checks and passed. The agency also notes that the couple, who are not citizens and do not have protected Civil Service status, could have been fired at any time.

 

But the agency has declined to say anything else about the case and did not respond to questions about its policies on background checks. "All I can say is the Afsharis are no longer employed by C.D.C.," said a spokeswoman, Kathryn Harben.

 

Federal employees have always faced routine background checks, typically when they are hired. But experts say that since the Sept. 11 attacks, checks at certain agencies, including the disease control centers, have become more frequent and tougher as the government attempts to identify potential security leaks or spies with access to classified or dangerous materials.

 

Those tougher checks seem to have focused on immigrants from certain countries. A C.D.C. document obtained by the Afsharis shows that the recent background checks on them were ordered because they came from a "threat" country, Iran.

 

But what is most confounding to the Afsharis is how the government could consider them threats in the first place. Neither had access to classified documents or worked with banned biological or chemical toxins.

 

Moreover, none of their research was secret, much of it having been published in scholarly journals or presented at academic conferences.

 

Mr. Afshari, 52, who has a doctorate in industrial engineering, built equipment to study the health effects of things like asphalt fumes, human saliva and dust particles. One of his inventions helped analyze the sound of the human cough. He also worked with commercially available lasers and ultrasound equipment.

 

Mrs. Afshari, 43, who has a master's degree in occupational health and safety, worked in a laboratory that researched allergic reactions to common items like latex gloves and hand cleansers.

 

Handling classified documents or banned toxins requires a higher security clearance than the Afsharis possessed. Indeed, neither of them had ever applied for such clearances, which entail more intensive background investigations than the standard checks conducted on most federal workers.

 

Paradoxically, federal law grants people who apply for such clearances more rights than the Afsharis were given, experts say. Under cold-war-era regulations, people who fail such clearances can request internal documents explaining the reasons and are entitled to hearings where they can present a defense.

 

"What we have here is a brand-new, ad hoc, secret system," said Kate Martin, director of the Center for National Security Studies, a civil liberties group, referring to the checks that led to the firings.

 

Friends and former colleagues say the Afsharis, though practicing Shiites who shun alcohol and worry about the permissiveness of American society, are anything but religious firebrands.

 

Mr. Afshari, a gregarious, chatty, bearlike man, was known to bring kosher turkeys to Thanksgiving dinners at Jewish homes and spend weekends repairing colleagues' cars for nothing. When his daughter, Azadeh, now 22 and a first-year student at West Virginia University's dental school here, decided to stop wearing a head scarf a few years ago, he did not protest, friends said.

 

The Afsharis' two eldest children, who were born in Iran but consider themselves Americans, have become well-known figures in Morgantown. Azadeh was a dean's list student, a campus government leader and a finalist for homecoming queen last year. Her brother Hamed, 21, a senior at the university, is also an honor student and a member of the student government. Their youngest child, Amin, 12, was born in America.

 

Robert C. Creese, a professor of engineering who was Mr. Afshari's doctoral adviser at West Virginia University, described Mr. Afshari as a pacifist who was appalled by the devastation wrought by Iran's decade-long war with Iraq. Mr. Afshari's younger brother was killed by mustard gas in that conflict.

 

"I fear a serious mistake has been made by C.D.C.," Dr. Creese said in one of nearly two dozen letters delivered to the agency that former colleagues have written to protest the Afsharis' firings.

 

The Afsharis contend that their only link to the student group under federal scrutiny, the Muslim Students Association (Persian Speaking Group), is that they took their children to national conventions in Chicago in December 1998 and Washington in December 1999.

 

Senior officials of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, including the former director Louis J. Freeh, have said the group, sometimes referred to by the Farsi name Anjoman Islamie, is made up largely of anti-American fanatics, maintains close ties to the government of Iran and has been used as a front for Iranian intelligence. But it is not on the State Department's list of banned foreign terrorist organizations, and it operates openly in the United States.

 

 

The Persian student group is independent of the larger Muslim Students Association, a mainly Sunni group.

 

To the Afsharis, the conventions were an opportunity to speak Persian, eat Iranian food, attend workshops on Islam and meet other Iranian-Americans at a time of the year when many Americans were celebrating Christmas.

 

"We loved it because it was a chance to meet kids from our culture," Azadeh Afshari said. "We pushed our parents to go."

 

Mr. Afshari said the F.B.I. became aware of his family's trips to the conventions after an agent interviewed him in late 2001 about an Iranian friend, a graduate student who had been active in the association. The man, Shahab Ghasemzadeh, was deported for immigration violations last year, Mr. Karlin, the Afsharis' lawyer, said.

 

In a statement to an immigration court last year, an F.B.I. agent said Mr. Ghasemzadeh "may pose a long-term threat" to the United States because of his association with Anjoman Islamie. As evidence, the agent said Mr. Ghasemzadeh had attended the group's conventions (he went to one of them with the Afsharis), and had helped Iranian-Americans vote in Iranian elections.

 

It remains unclear if Mr. Afshari's friendship with Mr. Ghasemzadeh was the reason he failed the background check. But if it was, the Afsharis' lawyers say, his firing would be a case of guilt by association and a violation of the First Amendment rights they enjoy as legal permanent residents.

 

"This looks suspiciously like the witch hunts of the 50's, this time targeted against Muslim Americans," Ms. Martin of the Center for National Security Studies said.

 

Two weeks ago, Mr. Afshari's unemployment benefits ran out. He has not found work, and the family is now living on savings and credit cards. Mrs. Afshari has begun dental school with Azadeh but says she does not know if they can afford the tuition.

 

Mr. Afshari has become sullen and withdrawn, his children said. Though his father in Iran is ill, Mr. Afshari has decided not to visit him, fearing he will not be allowed to return to the United States.

 

"Everybody has a sense of pride about their parents," Hamed Afshari said, breaking into tears. "And then someone disrespects them like that and it hurts so bad because there is nothing you can do."

 

The case has also affected the Afsharis' friends, who say they remain mystified and angry about the way the couple has been treated.

 

"I've told Ali's story to a lot of people," said Travis Goldsmith, a computer engineer who worked with Mr. Afshari. "They don't believe that this could happen in this country."

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/national/12shiite.html?ex=1103888439&ei=1&en=c7117e49305774eb

 

This is basically what happened to me. I was escorted out about one month before this couple was. They worked on aerosol related science like me. I worked at Los Alamos National Laboratory while they worked at NIOSH. Now that I'm back in WV the only real place my experience wouldn't be wasted would be at NOISH. My boss at Los Alamos National Laboratory had extensive contacts with NIOSH.

 

The big difference is that I was a temporary employeed so they were free to let me go with no explanation. They didn't even have to say it was because I failed a background check. But the way they let me go is not how these things are normally done and they destroyed my career as a result. Like Mr. and Mrs. Afshari I was long term unemployed as a result. One of the many who isn't even counted as unemployed because after 6 months, they just assume you must not really be looking so you don't count according to the government. With a BS and MS in mechanical engineering I finally found a job making 8 dollars an hour as a hospital orderly. I only got that job because my sister worked as a nurse at the hospital.

 

Probably the biggest difference between me and this couple is that I had almost no support at all. My colleagues acted like Good Germans in Nazis Germany ignoring that strange smell wafting up from down the block.

 

I became so angry at one point that I started getting afraid that I might blow up in some unpremediated way and do something highly illegal that would effectly end my life. In an almost unconsoius level I managed to let off some steam by blowing up about silly unrelated things; like the phonyness and dishonesty at veganfitness. For that showing no empathy, giving no support as unlike Afshari I apparently deserve nothing, I was free to piss off. Oh well.

 

I still get very angry. My health collapsed earlier from being so angry constantly. I try to not think about it. Try to divert myself. I'm still amazed at how little anybody really gives a fuck. That bothers me more than anything else. I try not to think about that but can't help myself from time to time and that is slowly destroying any positive beliefs I have about humankind.

[michaelhobson]

I still get very angry. My health collapsed earlier from being so angry constantly. I try to not think about it. Try to divert myself. I'm still amazed at how little anybody really gives a fuck. That bothers me more than anything else. I try not to think about that but can't help myself from time to time and that is slowly destroying any positive beliefs I have about humankind.

 

Jay, I'm sorry to hear about the health problems, I didn't realize the stress had been that bad for you. It is pretty terrible what they did to you after all those years of study, even if not unexpected in a George Bush government.

 

I think people here care about you, if in the fairly limited way one cares about the personal lives of message board members. I probably know you better than most here, and even I didn't realize how dramatic the impact of the past year has been on your life. Sorry if I missed an opportunity to be more supportive. I know I can speak for Tiffaney too in that we both enjoy your company in person, appreciate your personality and your input on this board.

 

Morgantown sounds like hell on earth for a scientist or engineer looking for work. I'm sure you explored Pittsburgh too. It's really unfortunate with your skills and all of the manufacturing jobs in the region, that you should be working for next to nothing. Wannalift is an engineer as well, perhaps he could offer some direction in landing a job around here.

 

It's hard for me to imagine having poured a decade of my life in to school or work. I've never had much of a passion for either. I'm sure at some point your life/work kind of run together. It must be really tough to separate the two again.

 

Hang in there, we should get together again some time soon. We spend most of our spare time hanging out with local vegans. Check out our new meetup.com group to see what we're up to. http://vegan.meetup.com/399/

[Odidnetne]

That was a ridiculous article. I really hate background checks and things like that.

[_raVen_]

... For that showing no empathy, giving no support as unlike Afshari I apparently deserve nothing, I was free to piss off. Oh well.

 

I sure as hell am not included in that.

 

I still get very angry. My health collapsed earlier from being so angry constantly. I try to not think about it. Try to divert myself. I'm still amazed at how little anybody really gives a fuck. That bothers me more than anything else. I try not to think about that but can't help myself from time to time and that is slowly destroying any positive beliefs I have about humankind.

 

I've told you before (even back in '04) I'm available to talk (and you haven't taken me up on that too often). I'm the type you can rant and rave to for hours on end

[Jay]

Thanks for those three replies.

 

I think I need to reassess discussion boards. I seem to have some very different idea about them than most. I really think they are potentially such a downright essential thing in this world. Obviously no one else gets this. And my time spent upon them has only made me a lot more nihilistic than I already was to begin with.

 

It's baffling to me this would only get three replies. Is it the jock nature of this board? Just out of self interest fellow vegans should want to know everything about what happened to me and should want to help my publicize it, etc., stop it from happening in the future.

 

But people just don't give a shit. And I'm pretty sure it's not just because it's:

a. A discussion board

b. A discussion board of "jockish" type people

 

I know from past experience that people flat out just don't care about anything. I've had so many experiences in the past which have made that overwhelmingly clear. I'm not talking about myself by the way. So many times I have tried to point out ridiculous levels of injustice that are going on right now in this world (where what has happened to me is relatively insignificant in comparison) that we could do something about and have just been ignored.

 

It seems this is just how people are. And that apparently includes people who call themselves socialist, includes vegans, etc.

 

Anyway I'm doing alright to those few who ever so slightly care. This article just got me to thinking about things again. Really I have things the best I've ever had them right now. Really, I've never had it so good.

[Jay]

Jay, I'm sorry to hear about the health problems, I didn't realize the

I think people here care about you, if in the fairly limited way one cares about the personal lives of message board members.

Yeah, I don't see that at all and strongly disagree with this idea that since it's on a discussion board the level of caring should be fairly limited. Obviously everyone else disagrees and as such I really just shouldn't use these types of forums anymore.

 

I probably know you better than most here, and even I didn't realize how dramatic the impact of the past year has been on your life. Sorry if I missed an opportunity to be more supportive.

The only person who came close to understanding was the only other person who had had something very similar happen to them. You, I'm sure, haven't even come close to getting it and i see no reason to bother really explaining as this is just a discussion board where the level of caring is fairly limited as such.

 

Morgantown sounds like hell on earth for a scientist or engineer looking for work. I'm sure you explored Pittsburgh too. It's really unfortunate with your skills and all of the manufacturing jobs in the region, that you should be working for next to nothing.

That's OK. I'm done torturing myself. I'm going to become a nurse. I like the work much better already I can clearly see.

 

Wannalift is an engineer as well, perhaps he could offer some direction in landing a job around here.

I guess because he knows me from a discussion board, his level of caring was "fairly limited".

 

It's hard for me to imagine having poured a decade of my life in to school or work. I've never had much of a passion for either. I'm sure at some point your life/work kind of run together. It must be really tough to separate the two again.

No, not really. what's tough is... no nevermind. No reason to bother explaining.

 

Hang in there, we should get together again some time soon. We spend most of our spare time hanging out with local vegans. Check out our new meetup.com group to see what we're up to. http://vegan.meetup.com/399/

I'm too nihilistic at this point to bother. The only reason that people bother with one another is to form cooperative groups to increase their survival chances in their continous confrontations with other groups. That, and to fuck. I wish it weren't so. But I've had it shoved in my face enough.

 

And that's what I really think. You know? Sorry. It is what it is. I've thrown out confrontational opinions so many times in the past in the hopes that I might be wrong and someone might show me how. But that hasn't happened very often. I usually just get someone who attacks me, thinks I'm an ass and says nothing, etc. I'm fatigued with this.

[Jay]

I sure as hell am not included in that.

No, you're not included in that.

 

I've told you before (even back in '04) I'm available to talk (and you haven't taken me up on that too often). I'm the type you can rant and rave to for hours on end

I like talking to you but I don't like to feel like things are one sided. You know? I don't want to always be the one calling, and always ranting about my problems. If you don't want to call me, etc, then I'll just leave you alone. Of course that I've seen things are usually one-sided with such things. But I'm Always the one who either has to really go after people or can just learn to be alone. And I get sick of that. I end up with this song always going through my head.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=G77rd7qZzhA

 

I try so hard to be good. At least what I think is Good. And I really just carry it to a masochistic level. And obviously the result is that people don't want to be around me as I just don't assimilate. (as I'm well aware i usually. And I certainly can. But I'm not happy when I do.) With the exception of women who think I'm good looking. But I'm married.

 

But to anyone reading who might think I'm like horribly unhappy. I'm not actually. Doing pretty well lately really. Thanks.

[Jay]

And yeah, I'm done here. Done with discussion boards, I'm pretty sure.

[Richard]

Some kinds of problems aren't helped by talking about them on a messageboard. I don't have any suggestions or advice for you, and me saying 'bummer' or 'that sucks', I would imagine come across as insincere and pointless. I hope you do find something which makes you feel better or a way to use your time constructively in a way that doesn't frustrate you.

[michaelhobson]

I'm too nihilistic at this point to bother. The only reason that people bother with one another is to form cooperative groups to increase their survival chances in their continous confrontations with other groups. That, and to fuck. I wish it weren't so. But I've had it shoved in my face enough.

 

You know, people also form groups for emotional support and bonding, and for economic sharing and support. I don't know you that well, but it seems you have isolated yourself from those types of groups. Get some friends, build a life, and stop complaining that people on message boards aren't doing that for you.

 

I'm sorry you have problems, so does everyone else. Your father is still alive, your marriage is still in tact. Forgive us if not everyone rallies around Jay and his problems. Everyone here agrees about the injustice that was done to you. Social radicals will never stand much of a chance in government run occupations. What is it you expect us to do about it?

 

And yes, you have made an ass of yourself pretty consistently in the online world. Is everyone else really wrong? Is everyone in the vegan fitness community really out to get Jay? Come on man, that is really delusional.

 

Regardless, I still think you're a pretty awesome human being. I wish you the best.

[Jay]

You know, people also form groups for emotional support and bonding, and for economic sharing and support. I don't know you that well, but it seems you have isolated yourself from those types of groups. Get some friends, build a life, and stop complaining that people on message boards aren't doing that for you.

Wow. I have only made the mistake of expecting others to treat me the way I'd treat them. I've looked to message boards to find friends and instead run into people like this.

 

You don't know me that well.

 

Gee. Long before this, I called you. You never returned the call. Hmmm. Despite that I continued to try to be nice and social.

 

We met up at the Hare Krishna place. Apparently you were thinking all kinds of negative things about me but you never said a word.

 

I'm sorry you have problems, so does everyone else. Your father is still alive, your marriage is still in tact. Forgive us if not everyone rallies around Jay and his problems.

Wow. What an ass!

 

Of course everyone has problems. Everyone should care about each other's problems. I originally posted this thing just because it reminded me how I wish people had responded when my career was destroyed. Of course most just responded with indifference. Which is exactly why They can normally get away with treating people like that.

 

Everyone here agrees about the injustice that was done to you. Social radicals will never stand much of a chance in government run occupations. What is it you expect us to do about it?

Are you kidding? Everyone agrees? Where did you get that from? Virtually no one ever said anything at all. All I wanted was to be treated the way I'd treat anyone. Which is to just know the details of what They're doing. Otherwise, if as you're suggesting, we just keep it all to ourselves, then they have the freedom to whatever the hell they please and no one will even know.

 

And yes, you have made an ass of yourself pretty consistently in the online world. Is everyone else really wrong? Is everyone in the vegan fitness community really out to get Jay? Come on man, that is really delusional.

 

Regardless, I still think you're a pretty awesome human being. I wish you the best.

And I pm'd you to talk about this. This idea that I'm "delusional". You cared so much about the fact that I'm "delusional" that you didn't even bother to respond.

 

Great stuff. Good luck with those groups of "emotional support and bonding".

[Jay]

Way back in about 2001 I was really into discussing politics in discussion forums and I discovered this website which I thought had really good articles: http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/LiberalFAQ.htm

 

Somewhere along the way into reading it I found out that the author had been killed: http://www.psnw.com/~bashford/kang-ev0.html

 

It was ruled a suicide. Really shouldn't have been. Personally what I think happened was that he made the mistake of trying to interview Richard Mellon Scaife (billionaire and number one funder of rightwing think tanks, etc). Scaife was known for having a temper. Scaife got angry and figured out he wasn't actually attached to any company but was actually just some nobody with an internet site.

 

Scaife had Jack Daniels forced down his throat, shot him in the head and he was left to bleed to death in the bathroom outside Scaife's office in Pittsburgh.

 

Based on the smear articles that Scaife had written up it was apparent he knew about Steve's website. But he pretended not to have any idea who this person was to the police. The police guessed he was some homeless drifter, his death was ruled a suicide and that was that.

 

I really liked his site (which got mirrored right before Scaife managed to get it taken down). It bothered me quite a lot to know what happened to him.

 

Occasionally I would share this story hoping some people would show something other than indifference. Posted it to at least 15 discussion boards I'm sure. No one really cared. (Although obviously someone has cared to keep a mirror up, etc all these years so Somebody out there cares.)

 

There was a lesson there to be learned.

 

I was just thinking about this recently because, I just never learned that lesson. If not with public high school or my time in the military, I should at least have managed to learn this lesson about indifference with Kangas.

 

I don't think I ever will.

 

So Mr. Kangas, I'm sorry. It's clear from your site you were trying very hard to be a good person. I'm sorry your life was so much dust.

 

 

 

 

Right here, I still don't get it. How can people be so indifferent?

 

I thought about where that meat came from. I imagined the horror behind it. The PETA films, etc never meant anything to me as I had already imagined it even better than that.

 

I've thought about Kangas in that bathroom. He's there with two goons. His face is blood and tear streaked. They're forcing the Jack Daniels down... etc. I've imagined it. I read his site and thought about it.

 

The indifference bothered me a lot.

 

I think about Mary and her 4000 posts of dust. Mary cared. She wasn't just posting for fun. She was(is) trying to help people. I can't comprehend such indifference as she got.

 

Over and over I see these things and have such a hard time believing them.

 

And I shouldn't. I am, in a sense, delusional. Why can't I just accept that with extremely few exceptions people are utterly selfish?

 

And I am an ass I guess for talking about such things. Pretty clearly. Supposed to put on a big fake smile and keep all the negative stuff bottled inside, keep them out, keep that wall high...

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=5981153

[cubby2112]

I used to often ignore posts for lack of time if the topics didn't catch my attention before I became terribly interested in it (how this never caught my attention, I will never know, it certainly did this time). When this was posted I was working a lot, so I am sorry for having missed it.

 

Now that the shitty excuses are out of the way: I really do care about each being in the world. I feel the pain of those who are experiencing it. I do not have to know a being to be concerned about its well-being. I believe this is more common than you might think, but that might just be my positive attitude I have been trying so hard to cultivate speaking.

 

I often struggle with crushing bouts of nihilism for many of the same reasons you do. Because of the nature of nihilistic thoughts, I feel I cannot say much to comfort you other than that I am one person who actually does care. What exactly is the reason for my caring? Is it something selfish such as wanting to get ahead in society? I would guess no, as my kindness has gotten me very little in life. Some people appreciate it, but most seem to brush it off as some kind of weak-mindedness. All I know for sure is that when something is suffering, it makes me feel awful inside and I want to do what I can to help.

 

I am open to talk about your problems. PM me if you like. I guarantee I will respond. I want to do what I can. I know what these thoughts feel like, oh so well.

[Jay]

I used to often ignore posts for lack of time if the topics didn't catch my attention before I became terribly interested in it (how this never caught my attention, I will never know, it certainly did this time). When this was posted I was working a lot, so I am sorry for having missed it.

Thank you for responding cubby. I didn't see your response till now as I had given up on bothering to check this thread. Someone notified me of it.

 

It's understandable that a lot of people didn't even look at the thread. I guess I know that. And I guess that's fine that a bunch of people haven't said anything.

 

Now that the shitty excuses are out of the way: I really do care about each being in the world. I feel the pain of those who are experiencing it. I do not have to know a being to be concerned about its well-being. I believe this is more common than you might think, but that might just be my positive attitude I have been trying so hard to cultivate speaking.

I don't think it's common TBH. I think people try to think "positive thoughts" and that means not thinking about suffering, etc.

 

I often struggle with crushing bouts of nihilism for many of the same reasons you do. Because of the nature of nihilistic thoughts, I feel I cannot say much to comfort you other than that I am one person who actually does care. What exactly is the reason for my caring? Is it something selfish such as wanting to get ahead in society? I would guess no, as my kindness has gotten me very little in life. Some people appreciate it, but most seem to brush it off as some kind of weak-mindedness. All I know for sure is that when something is suffering, it makes me feel awful inside and I want to do what I can to help.

Thank you for saying the bold. I think it matters to do so even if ultimately there's nothing more that can be done.

 

I don't know the answer exactly and won't go on and on with my thoughts about it here. I would like to understand why Michael Hobson chose to ignore me but I wouldn't want to be a stalker so I guess I won't be taking part in his meetup group ever (the closest thing of that nature anywhere near me). Perhaps he thinks I'm lying.

 

I am open to talk about your problems. PM me if you like. I guarantee I will respond. I want to do what I can. I know what these thoughts feel like, oh so well.

I'm fine really. This thing that happened to me did bother me more than what happens to others of course. But ultimately it's because of how much I cared about others, that it bothered me so much how I was treated.

 

My life situation isn't so bad really. Have a good wife. Financially doing OK. Have good parents. A couple good sisters. A few nice people I know online. I work with some very good people. Really, I'm personally doing decently well.

 

It is more the question of this world that I can't ignore. How is it that any such thread as this on any board, let alone a vegan one, gets ignored? Let's hope here it's because a lot of people just never looked at it.

 

Thank you for taking the time to reply.

 

If anything further, pm would be better. Although pm's aren't necessary. I won't be around often to keep checking this awful thread.