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Forever troubled...Proper caloric intake for burning.

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I'm 5'10" 194. I'm not really that big for my weight(in my opinion) I know people who wear less weight much larger. Anyway. I'm shooting to get below 10% bodyfat...looking to bring out my 6 pack and muscle definition but I am having one heck of a time seeing much result.


Maybe someone can help troubleshoot this mess.


PB&J 340 Cal 13g Pro--pre workout

Luna 140 Cal 10g Pro--between lifting and cardio

Luna 140 Cal 10g Pro--post workout

Shake 400 Cal 30g Pro--upon arrival home

Burger Neuvau X2 640 Cal 54g Pro--Lunch

Almonds 4oz 170 cal 7g pro--Snack

Seitan Steaks/tofurkey sausage 470 cal 50g pro--Dinner


Withoug eating again before bedtime this is 2300 calories but only 174 g of protein. Meh...I weigh 194. I have a soloution for that. I'm switching to Universal soy pro which with soy milk is 30g and only 217 cal. 2 of them will add 30 calories, but 30g of protein. Good trade off. Anyway you have and idea of the garbage I eat. Lets look at my program


All exercies are 30sec between sets and 1.5 min between exercises

Monday Legs


3 of 12 squats

3 of 12 leg press

3 of 12 ham curl

3 of 12 quad ext

3 of 12 seated calf raise

directly to

30 min on crosstrainer

800 meters freestyle stroke--to save time and space..my cardio is typically the same, however sometimes I leave and do my cardio in the evening



Tuesday Chest

3 of 12 bench or dumbell press

3 of 12 incline dumbell

3 of 12 decline press

3 of 12 cable flys

directly to cardio


Wed Back

Pull ups warmup

3 of 12 Lat Pulldown

3 of 12 Bent barbell row

3 of 12 Dumbell row

3 of 12 Deadlift

directly to cardio



Thurs Shoulders

3 of 15 Clean and Press

3 of 15 Arnold Press

3 of 15 Seated Rev Flys

3 of 15 Side Raise

3 of 15 Front Raise

directly to cardio


Fri -Rest my arms


Sat Bi's & Tri's

3 of 12 Twistiing Dumbell Curl

3 of 12 Camber Curl

3 of 12 Overhead Cable Curl

3 of 12 Pushdowns

3 of 12 Kickbacks

3 of 12 Skulls or Rope Pushdowns

and cardio



Sunday Day of Rest


That was a lot. Thanks if you took the time to read it. If this should be in another forum I apologize. I'm sure a moderator can move it. Thanks again. I know a lot of you guys are in some seriously good shape. My real question is about my diet, but I thought it best to see it compared to my workout, to truly know what I need to be eating.

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hey jason.


thanks for posting your routine and diet, it really can be hard to drop fat, especially for people who store it around their stomach.


regarding protein, i try to get about 200g of protein a day, but on quite alot of days i dont make that (im 228lb). it doesnt really affect my training. more important is getting the right amount of calories.

im not entirely sure what to suggest to get more cut, as ive always struggled to put much weight on, so ive never had to cut back.


i would say though that cardio has no affect on whether you are ripped or not. i never do anything (except for normal day to day walks), nor does topher (Hero V VII) , and he is one of the most ripped guys on the board.


you have very long workouts, with really high reps. im not saying this will work for definate for you, but lower reps (6-8) and really really pushing it seems to fire my metabolism for sometime after the workout, hence burning many calories.

try just 4 different exercises each session with say 4-5 sets of 6-8reps.


it took me ages to get round the idea of less is more, but this is me doing 8different exercises for 3 sets of 12reps each session 8months ago:




and this is me a few weeks ago, doing very limitted numbers of exercises for really low reps.





besides high reps means you do more work



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Hi Jason.


I agree with Jonathan. In order to lose bodyfat, it's not necessary to to large amounts of cardio (but it doesn't hurt). By lifting weights, you burn enough calories and activate your metabolism better than by doing cardio.


Regarding protein, i know i've a solitary opionion, but i believe that you don't need the large amounts usually promoted for bodybuilding. A small exceed of your needs will do ( i take in approx. 1.2g per kg of bodyweight per day, that's ~ 100g/day).


Your routine is okay, i know those work well, but for cutting, i'd suggest to do a 2-split twice per week. Thus, you do the big exercises that burn fat and are increasing the muscle metabolism better more often.

I wouldn't recommend doing the cardio after the weights. If you can't seperate the sessions, do the cardio first, then take some calories, then the weights. But the best would be to do cardio in the morning before breakfast, weights in the evening.



Cool to see some pics of you mate The second is better, though it's hard to judge. At least the posing is better!




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funny - those photos always looked very different until i posted them up here! i suppose the difference is im 10kg heavier, the lower back is much thicker. the forearms are better from heavy grip work. here are two front shots (sorry for comandeering your thread jason!)


a few months ago - yes i know the light is favorable!




and this one is from jan 2004 after having put on 6kg training for 4months:




and these are my legs a couple of months ago:




its annoying really for me, as being as tall as i am, ive put on loads of weight but im still quite thin. i started out 23months ago at 77kg (170lb) and now im 104kg (228lb) but ive still got a long way to go until i reach a state where im happy.



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Yes, Jason, a thread can be hijacked faster than you think!




Hey, these pics are better! You really are in a very good shape!

There's really nothing to complain about, great symmetrics.


How tall are you (in cm)?


Keep up the good work,


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Hey, it's ok guys. I know that lifting is very good for promoting my metabolism. High weight/low reps also in theory can help you to burn more calories because muscle burns more more calories per pound than fat. It's a long process however to gain a pound(or kg) of muscle. I'll get some pictures up. I'll use their not so accurate method at the gym today to check my bodyfat. I'm guessing it's around 11 or 12%. I guess my real question is if 2300 calories a day is too much for someone my size to cut weight. Then in my question would be...should I cut calories...where would I get 190g or protein a day from less. I don't want to cut my protein while trying to burn fat because I don't want to risk burning muscle. The extra protein in my diet will burn first and act as a bit of a buffer.


Ok maybe here's a better question. How do you determine the calories you need to maintain your weight for your size? Is there an equation somewhere?

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ahh! I thought I was meant to be doing cardio to burn my fat. Okay, need to regroup and go back to the drawing board. More weights. I have weight that I want to lose around my stomach. Elsewhere it's not so bad, it hangs okay on me, I am not hugely over-weight, but on my stomach it sucks a bit too much for me.

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Almost everywhere I look, people say that about 45+ minutes of cardio 5+ times a week is how to burn fat. But now I'm hearing that weights can be better? I heard that Topher never had much fat to start with, therefore never had to lose much of it? I could be wrong. I'd like to hear more opinions and facts about how I should spend my time and energy to lose fat. I prefer lifting weights than cardio, but if cardio is what is better I will do it.

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Hi Richard.


It's true that you burn fat doing cardio. And you can maintain cardio training longer and do it more often than intensive weight training, so probably you burn more calories with cardio.

But it's limited. 1. weight training is better in burning calories while you're NOT training - for two reasons: a) your metabolism increases and you burn more just sitting around. This lasts for up to 72 hours, depending on the intensity of the workout, but usually more around 36 hours. b) when you gained some muscle mass, you burn more calories because your basic metabolism rate is higher. The more muscles you have the easier it is to burn fat. 2. Cardio training alone gets ineffective after a while, as the body adapts to it. There are ways to counter this effect, thuogh, by changing the cardio training.


The best thing is to combine your diet with weight training AND cardio. This is the best way to lose fat. If you had to choose, weight training would be superior though.


Hope this is helpful. If you have questions on your training plan, feel free to ask me. I'm aslo sure one of our personal trainers here on board would be glad to write you a plan




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Cool thanks, I understand what was meant now. Physically I am unable to do an intense amount of cardio AND an intense amount of weight training. It is possible to focus on one, and have the other to a small degree. At the gym I am doing 10 - 20 minutes on bike, followed by (various) weight training for about 40 minutes. I used to do about 45 minutes on bike when I was at university, but it's so boring :s

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Physically I am unable to do an intense amount of cardio AND an intense amount of weight training.

For now

Everyone begins at some point. Do not do too much in the beginning! But keep increasing over time, stay patient, young padavan.


It is possible to focus on one, and have the other to a small degree.

Of course that is possible.


At the gym I am doing 10 - 20 minutes on bike, followed by (various) weight training for about 40 minutes. I used to do about 45 minutes on bike when I was at university, but it's so boring :s

I know what you mean

I do the same, cardio 10-20min for warm-up. If you do more cardio, i'd recommend to do it after the weights. The best is to split the sessions, though. If you can, do the cardio seperate from the weight training. For reducing your weight, it's great to have a standing bike at home, then you can read or watch tv while exercising I did that every morning during my diet, before breakfast.

If you're really overweight, running is not good, as it stresses the joints too much. Swimming is great though. Cardio should be fun.

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Physically I am unable to do an intense amount of cardio AND an intense amount of weight training.

For now

Everyone begins at some point. Do not do too much in the beginning! But keep increasing over time, stay patient, young padavan.


Well what I mean is, say if you go to the gym, and blast cardio for like 3 hours or something on bike, treadmill, rowing machine and whatever else, then go to lift weights straight after, you're not going to do the weight training as effectively as if you had only done a small amount of cardio. But like you said, splitting up the session and doing cardio at a different time would allow you to do both at high intensity, which I could do theoretically. I have a bike at home, but it's falling to pieces

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Where are your fruits and vegetables xjasonedgex ? Your diet seems to have alot of protein, but not really many water based foods. Also, how much water do you drink per day ? This might be the key to helping you get more of a shredded look.


* Jonathan, do you mind my asking what exercises you do for your thighs ? (they look fantastic ) and how would one get abs like Tarz and Topher and a back like Daywalker ?

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Thanks Daywalker. Would you happen to know if he does regular squats, sissy squats or squats with barbell and if so how much poundage ? (Is there anywhere on the board that lists this information ?) I looked for this on the VF board, but am completely clueless with all the abbreviations and #s.


Also what kind of exercises and poundage do you use for your back Daywalker ?

C'mon guys, have pity and give me a hint about your routines.....

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thankyou for the compliment crash! i think my legs have a long way to go though - they lack size


i just squat. its the best exercise for legs IMO. i really dont do any other leg exercises except for occasionally doing calf raises.


i do low reps too - nothing over 5reps for working sets. im not too convinced that high reps work as well for combining mass and definition. as regards weights, i rep at 80-115kg for 3-6reps. im not very strong yet, but im hoping it will improve with my form.


when i first started squatting (just before christmas) i put an inch on my thighs in the first 4weeks. i did have almost constant ache there though!


i really am rambling here, but i dont think that you need to include anything else for thighs than squats (i just dont really like front squats, though they are an excellent exercise). i have heard that leg extentions can cause knee injuries if over used (due to your quads working at full intensity without any load on the knee) and leg press, whilst good for power, remove the issue of balance, so squatting is still better!


i have a love/hate relation with squats - when they go well i love em, but when i cant nail the form i hate them!



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Thanks for the information jonathan ! Per your pictures, you look like you are in proportion and have great definition. Symmetry is a great plus in body building, which you have. If you keep on increasing your weight poundage I'm certain the size will come along. Keep up the good work.


Sorry for the hijack xjasonedgex. Have you made any progress ?

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I am worried about squats from an injury point of view. The squat 'machine' which you stand / lay in looks like it would crush me. Doing squats with a barbell freaks me out as I worry about balance, and also worry about not being able to come back up if I have screwed it up. Plus the strain on the lower-back. Is there a more comfortable way to do thighs? Or do I just suck bad?

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