Dumbbell fly -- high reps/low weight or vice versa?

[SAW]

Happy new year all!

 

I have what is probably a simple question for the experts:

 

My primary workout goal is to build as much muscle as possible. With that in mind, would it be more effective for me to do chest flies at say, 50 reps with a pair of 10lb. dumbbells, or would I get better results from say, 20-25 reps with a pair of 20lb. dumbbells? In other words, should I be doing less reps with more weight or more reps with less weight?

 

ALSO - does the answer to this question apply to all muscle groups (keeping in mind maximum muscle growth as the primary goal)? In particular, I'm curious about bicep curls......

 

Thanks everyone,

[Zack]

Use higher weight, and less reps for bulking. That applies to all muscles. Less weight and higher reps is good to tone, heavier weight to bulk. Use a weight that you can do for less than 3-5 sets of 10-12 reps. Once you can do that, more weight.

[Aaron]

4 sets of 8 ish.

[Guest]

I like doing lots of sets...rarely doing more than 10 reps other than warm up sets. This goes for most large muscles. However, I think calves, hamstrings, delts, forarms and for me tris react well to sets of 15-20 better than sets of less than ten.

[willpeavy]

I use a range of anywhere from 5 to 20 reps to failure. Keep changing the number around from workout to workout to shock the muscles

[SAW]

Thanks for replies everyone......great feedback and very helpful. I'm going to try bumping it up to 25lb. dumbbells and shoot for the 8 - 12 rep range for my chest flies and bicep curls.

 

And per willpeavy's advice - I will definitely vary the workouts.

 

Thanks again,

[VeganEssentials]

One more thing to consider -

 

Flyes are a far lesser size-building tool than, say, regular benching, so I'd use them more as a supplement than a base for wanting to gain size. It's similar to doing leg curls and extensions for size than doing squats - while some things have their place, keeping things simple and doing the most effective overall movements will almost always be more beneficial than doing smaller movements that have less overall muscle recruitment. Don't forget, benching (although I'm not a fan of it myself) also works your triceps and, to some extent your front delts, which you're not putting to as much use if you use an isolation-style exercise.

 

As often gets preached here, simple, compound movements are the most effective ways to build the most size and strength (squats, deadlifts, rows/chins, benching, overhead pressing), and everything else is pretty well secondary if getting larger and stronger are your mail goals. Not that you can't do some good with assistance/isolation stuff, but basic compound movements are always best, unless for some reason you simply can't do them.

[SAW]

Benching is definitely part of my routine (I purchased a Powertec bench press based on advice here at VBB and am very pleased with it).

 

VeganEssentials, I'm intrigued that you say bench pressing is preferable to flyes for bulking the chest as I've always felt that flyes hit my chest much harder. Seems I should be emphasizing the bench a little more....

 

On that note, I've been stuck at 100lbs. (10 reps, 3 sets) with my bench press since I purchased the Powertec about six months ago. I'm not sure what the reason would be for this as I've been able to steadily add more weight to my flyes and curls....any insight there?

 

Best,

[VeganEssentials]

The main reason that you may "feel" flyes in your chest more is that the stretch of the motion provides a greater range, especially if you keep your arms more straight than bent. However, a stretch or "feeling" something is not always the strongest indicator of how well it is working (I had to move 2000 lbs. of dog food from a truck inside a building last month and although I was sore, I didn't gain any useable size from it )

 

Some of my most productive periods of training were where I didn't feel sore all the time, and my workouts were short, low in reps, but done with compount movements and with all-out effort. I'm not the guy who grunts and groans during every set when I lift, but when you hear me make noise, it's because I feel like I'm about to die yet I keep fighting through Benching will recruit more muscle fiber overall vs. flyes, even if flyes leave you with more soreness. This can be attributed to a few different factors, such as that flyes don't work the same intensity at the same angle throughout the movement. Say, if you were to use totally straight arms (not recommended, but for argument's sake here), once you get past about 45 degrees the same stresses are not being placed on the chest - it's almost like the theory of variable resistance machines (where they say the weight at one point is different from that at another during the movement), as the most difficulty in the movement with flyes is when you are stretched at the maximum and not when you're getting the DBs nearer to each other as you'll feel the stress reduce at points then get greater as you lower the weight. As much as I hate most machines, you'll actually have greater balance in continual resistance with a flye/pec deck machine if it's like any of the ones I've used because the start and end will have the same level of resistance. With benching you don't feel the same stretch, but you feel it differently as you begin more with the chest and as you near lockout the triceps kick in more and play a larger part. Both work the chest, just in different ways that incorporate different additional muscles in the movement with one vs. the other.

 

For being stuck with benching, it's tough to say the reasoning without knowing more about how your program has been the past few months - how often are you benching, do you ever change the sets or reps or continue to just try and add another rep to your existing 3x10? Also, when you get stuck on your last rep, is it more difficult off of the chest, at midpoint, or when you're trying to lock the weight out to complete the rep? If you get stuck off the chest getting it moving more than a few inches, then actual pressing strength with your chest is what needs more work - doing partial reps (such as with a spotter or in a rack with safety pins) may be ideal to get past that point. If the last half of the movement is more difficult, then you have a need to work your triceps more in order to get the lockout to perform more effectively. Again, this can be done with work on partial reps, or by temporarily changing to close-grip benching (not with hands too close together, but with hands about torso width apart and elbows tucked in to make your triceps do the bulk of the work). Also, changing to incline presses for a bit can change things up as well - if I work incline presses for a while and go back to flat benching, I always found that my flat bench moved up quickly as it is the easier of the two movements.

 

Finally, if you've been doing the same program for some time, change it around a bit. After anywhere from 4-10 weeks just about anything needs to get switched up, so if you've been stuck with benching, maybe try dropping it for the flyes and some diamond push-ups for a month before going back to it. Or, you can keep benching, but change the routine up - for example, instead of doing 3x10, maybe up the weight a little bit and do 5x5 instead, or 10 sets of doubles or something of that sort. Even changing a few lbs. on your sets and the number of reps can make a lot of difference in time. For example, with overhead standing barbell presses (done strict with no leg drive), I've done 4 reps @ 225 lbs. as the most reps in one set with that weight. After that, I can barely move one more single rep after a few minutes' rest because it's just too taxing to get those 4 reps. However, today I decided to do only sets of 2 reps and made 5 sets in a row for 10 total, all because I changed it up a bit and still put forth max effort, but I didn't go to failure and was able to get a much greater workload in.

 

Also, how often are you benching? Is it once weekly, twice weekly, more often than that? When you bench, are you ever still sore from the previous session? Do you do any triceps or shoulder work the day before benching? All of these things can affect your bench workout (or anything else for that matter). If you're benching too often without adequate recovery that can be a major cause of progress slowing down, and doing any exercises prior to benching which can compromise the strength of the stabilizers and additional working muscle groups can also make progress more difficult as well. This is why I don't do any work for shoulders or triceps for at least 2 days before I bench - I don't want my bench to suffer because a secondary group is tiring out too soon from lack of recovery.

 

If something gets to where it just doesn't progress, either drop that lift for a month or two and move on to other stuff, or switch it around and see what happens. There's no magic number that works best for everyone all of the time - you may find that doing more sets of less reps is good, but you may find the opposite and end up down the road doing 3x15 at a bit lower weight allows you to eventually add more weight. Everyone responds differently, so play around with some changes and see where it goes. Give everything a few weeks' chance to see if it works or not, and if not, chalk it up to experience and move on. After 10 years I'm finally getting it right, so keep up the good work and sooner or later you're going to find the best way to get your body to respond and it'll pay off big!

 

Ryan

[SAW]

Good stuff Ryan and you nailed it -- I have a very bad habit of keeping my arms straight during flyes which probably explains the soreness and hence the perception that flyes are superior to the bench. I feel so enlightened!

 

The more I read what you have to say and evaluate my routine, I have a feeling that my bench woes are a symptom of the strong likelihood that I'm just not pushing myself hard enough.

 

I tend to do all-in-one type workouts on average three times a week. Interestingly enough, the flyes are the only exercise that leave me sore the next day. I work my arms to failure with dumbbells and a curl bar and have no soreness and no apparent soreness from benching either (to answer your question, the last half of the bench press is the most difficult, so per your suggestion, an emphasis on the triceps may be in order).

 

What I probably need is a plan that focuses on specific muscle groups, spread throughout the week and with far more intensity than I'm putting in now with my all-in-one workouts. I do a lot of hiking and seem to be genetically predisposed to strong legs, so I'd like to focus my weight training on upper-body strength for now.

 

I have the bench press set, a curl bar, a pile of dumbbells, a pull up bar, and a set of push up bars. I'm very open to purchasing anything else I may need. Can you offer a suggestion as to how I might break it up, say, into three or four workouts per week with the objective of bulking up?

 

Thanks again for all of your help,

[Ravi]

FWIW, I stopped doing any isolation exercises (aside from seated calve raises and the pec deck for chest) in the gym for the past 2 months and have noticed much better gains, my injuries are starting to heal, and I seem to have more energy in the gym as well.

 

I have stopped doing tri press, curls, shoulder raises, etc...

 

I just focus on: deadlifts, squats, pull ups, dips, rows, pull over machine and a few other odds and end. I do this total body routine every workout, 2-3x a week (as opposed to a split routine focusing on a specific body part each day).

[VeganEssentials]

Always glad to help, SAW!

 

If you've been doing chest work 3x per week that's probably overkill for you at this point - there are few lifts I can do even twice weekly and recover fully, and if I do something twice, one day will be much lighter than the other!

 

It sounds like you have most of all the equipment that you need - I'm a big proponent of squats (even if you don't feel the need to work legs, squats do so much more than just build leg mass), so the only thing I could recommend last would either be a power rack or a set of squat stands and a pair of spotting pillars. For a cheap power rack that's good for low ceiling clearance height, I would probably suggest these:

 

http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/92565.html

or

http://www.newyorkbarbells.com/pro92560.html

 

Their stuff will hold at least 700-800 lbs., so you'd be set for quite some time You can use this then for partial deadlifts, for seated overhead pressing, for squats from all ranges of heigh, shrugs and more. $249 is pretty cheap for a solid rack, so if you don't want to spend $600+ on a high-end one I'd say that this would be just about the last piece of equipment you'd need (other than more weight when the time comes!) Anything beyond this is simply if you wanted a thick bar, bumper plates or other such items, but for basic equipment, either one of these two things would take care of your needs well enough.

 

Now, for changing your schedule a bit...

 

Since you sound like you've been doing the same workout 3 times per week, I'd suggest changing to making your workout to where on each day you only work 2 body parts and keep any conflicting parts (where one can be sore and affect the lifting for another) spaced out. For example -

 

Monday - Chest and Upper Back

 

Wednesday - Legs and Shoulders

 

Friday - Arms and Lower Back

 

All bases covered, done with a rest day between and the weekend to do as you wish. For a sample routine, here's something that would be effective and could be done fairly quickly -

 

Chest and Upper Back

Close Grip Bench Press (to work triceps and vary things up a bit) - 2 warmup sets, 3x8 for your work sets

Barbell or Dumbbell Bent Over Rows - same scheme as with benching, 2 progressive warm-up sets (anywhere from 8-10 reps), then 3 work sets to near failure, possibly to failure on the final set on the last rep

If you get a rack to use so you can change the range of motion, I'd say then maybe to do some 1/2 Bench Presses in the rack, starting with the bar on the safety pins halfway between where it would rest on your chest and between where it would be if you had it fully locked out at the top. No warmup really needed since your chest should already be worked up. If you don't get a rack, then maybe Incline DB Presseswith a low incline, no more than maybe about 15-30% at most (too steep and the shoulders kick in too much).

Finally, 3 sets of Pull-Ups to wrap it up - if you can get 8 that's fantastic, if you can get more, do up to 12 or add weight to where 3x8 is the most you'll get out of it. If you can't do 8 but can do at least 4, either do assisted pull-ups to hit 8 (either having someone help you when you start to struggle or get a band that you can wrap over the bar and put under your feet to reduce the weight a bit and help you up). Or, if you simply want to beat yourself into getting better at pull-up and you can only do a few, set a total number such as 20, and do them in sets of 1-4 until you finally hit that number, even if it takes you 10 sets to reach it.

 

Legs and Shoulders

Again, I stress squats because they're pretty much the best overall exercise you can do - you'll build excellent overall leg strength, you'll strengthen your abs and lower back for stabilizing, and you'll strengthen your trapezius a bit particularly if you learn how to do low-bar style squats. If you get a rack to do squats in and haven't done them before, ease in to them for a few weeks before going heavier. Squats can be brutal, and if you don't work on form first they can be a bit dangerous, not to mention they'll leave you sore from head to toe once you start doing them with some solid weight. When you get to squatting, make it the basis for your leg work and do a few warmup sets and 3-5 work sets of 8-12 reps to start and work on hammering your form in to get solid on technique.

For shoulders, either Barbell or Dumbbell Overhead Presses will be most effective - I prefer them standing, but seated is fine as well. Same thing, go with a few warm-ups and 5 sets of 8-10 on these since these will be the only shoulder exercise necessary.

Back to legs - Stiff Legged Deadlifts. Barbell or 2-dumbbell style is fine, but if you wan the added challenge, I was shown that single-leg style with a DB in the opposing hand is a real killer (and works well if you don't have heavy DBs on hand). Basically, stand on both feet, then start by leaning forward, letting the arm with the DB drift a bit toward the opposing foot as you have the leg on the DB side drift back behind you, preferably to where it is at 45 degrees or more from the standing position. Do higher reps for these, maybe 3x10-12 for each side one side following the next.

 

Arms and Lower Back

Stard with barbell deadlifts off of the floor, do 2-3 warm-up sets for this and then 4-5 work sets of 8-12 reps. If you haven't done deadlifts before, the same theory goes as with squats - ease into them and work on technique so that you don't get hurt later on when doing them. They're one of the best exercises you can do for overall strength and development (along with squats), but they can be dangerous if you don't learn how to pull correctly and keep your back straight. Some people do pull with rounded backs and are fine, but unless you're genetically predisposed to be that kind of puller (which few are) you'll want to study videos of people's technique online and work from that. Some people pull with a lot of leg, some more with lower back (such as myself), but study if you haven't done them a lot in the past and watch your form to keep safe.

Even though it's technically upper back, I would do shrugs on this day since it'll been the workloads between days a bit more balanced. Barbell or dumbbell, go with higher reps and do maybe 3 sets of 12-20 depending on how you feel, to where your last rep on your last set is hell to get through and you've got to jolt your traps up to move the weight.

 

I'm not big on arm work myself since all the compound exercises do incorporate the arms, but if you want to do some curls or triceps extensions, now's the day to do them. Or, better yet, get into doing grip work and start doing that on this day (there a lot I could write about grip stuff, so I'll find some links later and put them here). On this day the lower back work is most crucial, and if you do any biceps/triceps stuff, 3-5 sets total over 1-2 exercises at most and that'll be sufficient.

 

 

All days of lifting as noted above can be done in 40-60 minutes without any problem, and I don't prescribe much need to do a whole bunch of exercises as if you stick to the basics you'll get what you need.

 

As for level of intensity and how hard you lift only you know what that point is, but I look at it this way for myself - if I have gas in the tank left for more than 1-2 reps after I complete a set, either I'm not doing enough reps or I'm not going heavy enough (unless it is an intentionally light session for rehab work or a 2nd session to train a part during the week). Too often you see people train who can have conversations while they lift, and that's just useless. If you're giving it your all and know that you simply can't get more out of it than you've given, then you're doing what needs to be done, so don't short-change yourself if that's how you've approached lifting. I feel way more pain while doing my lifts than after I'm done because if I'm not straining to complete my sets, then I'm not forcing my body to adapt to the stresses which in turn makes me stronger.

 

Hopefully the suggestions here will help out a bit and get you started with a program that can work to get you more results - just remember to get plenty of rest and eat enough to grow and nature will take its course. Take care, and keep us posted how things go!

 

Ryan

 

 

Good stuff Ryan and you nailed it -- I have a very bad habit of keeping my arms straight during flyes which probably explains the soreness and hence the perception that flyes are superior to the bench. I feel so enlightened!

 

The more I read what you have to say and evaluate my routine, I have a feeling that my bench woes are a symptom of the strong likelihood that I'm just not pushing myself hard enough.

 

I tend to do all-in-one type workouts on average three times a week. Interestingly enough, the flyes are the only exercise that leave me sore the next day. I work my arms to failure with dumbbells and a curl bar and have no soreness and no apparent soreness from benching either (to answer your question, the last half of the bench press is the most difficult, so per your suggestion, an emphasis on the triceps may be in order).

 

What I probably need is a plan that focuses on specific muscle groups, spread throughout the week and with far more intensity than I'm putting in now with my all-in-one workouts. I do a lot of hiking and seem to be genetically predisposed to strong legs, so I'd like to focus my weight training on upper-body strength for now.

 

I have the bench press set, a curl bar, a pile of dumbbells, a pull up bar, and a set of push up bars. I'm very open to purchasing anything else I may need. Can you offer a suggestion as to how I might break it up, say, into three or four workouts per week with the objective of bulking up?

 

Thanks again for all of your help,

[SAW]

Incredible! This is exactly what I needed to jump start my routine. Thanks for the lead on the power racks - incidentally, I was shopping for one not too long ago (guess I was on the right track), so I have a few good leads on quality equipment locally.

 

I'll take a few "before" photos and see how much progress I can make by summertime. I'll definitely keep you posted.

 

 

Thanks so much. This has been a HUGE help.

[VeganEssentials]

Again, glad I could help out! I only wish I didn't have about 30 typos in my reply - I re-read it and it's driving me nuts to see all the errors. Stupid perfectionism complex...