what martial arts for women?

[michellekdo]

hi,

i would like to get into martial art. i just don't know in which direction i should go. i used to do judo when i was a kid (probably won't remember much). i want to do something i can use for selfdefence and to get (stay) in shape. i don't want to look after training like shit after training.

any suggestions would be great

thanks,

michele

[xdarthveganx]

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.

[veganmomma]

Krav Maga. KM does not take a lot of physical strength to effectively use the techniques. Although all martial arts take time to master, the basic combatives of KM were created to be learned quickly. I myself a male and many of my female training partners felt confident enough to use KM in a real street situation after training for a relatively short period of time. KM teaches practical self-defense not sport.

[xdarthveganx]

Krav Maga. KM does not take a lot of physical strength to effectively use the techniques. Although all martial arts take time to master, the basic combatives of KM were created to be learned quickly. I myself a male and many of my female training partners felt confident enough to use KM in a real street situation after training for a relatively short period of time. KM teaches practical self-defense not sport.

 

this is true to certain degrees. There are alot of KM schools that are total shit.

I have dabbled in KM and my father was on an elite team in the Israeli Military that most def. applied techniques used in KM. However, legit KM instructors use alot of half assed BJJ techniques as apart of their ground arsenal. I would honestly advise you to go to the source directly.

[veganmomma]

this is true to certain degrees. There are alot of KM schools that are total shit.

I have dabbled in KM and my father was on an elite team in the Israeli Military that most def. applied techniques used in KM. However, legit KM instructors use alot of half assed BJJ techniques as apart of their ground arsenal. I would honestly advise you to go to the source directly.

There are schools that teach every martial art that are total shit, not just KM. I don't understand why the 2 people who have posted have placed a primary emphasis of BJJ. BJJ would be useful if a women is knocked to the ground and a guy is trying to sexually assault her, however strikes to vulnerable parts of a males body or effective use of an ink pen or house/car keys would give a women the opportunity to escape from her attacker.

[xdarthveganx]

this is true to certain degrees. There are alot of KM schools that are total shit.

I have dabbled in KM and my father was on an elite team in the Israeli Military that most def. applied techniques used in KM. However, legit KM instructors use alot of half assed BJJ techniques as apart of their ground arsenal. I would honestly advise you to go to the source directly.

There are schools that teach every martial art that are total shit, not just KM. I don't understand why the 2 people who have posted have placed a primary emphasis of BJJ. BJJ would be useful if a women is knocked to the ground and a guy is trying to sexually assault her, however strikes to vulnerable parts of a males body or effective use of an ink pen or house/car keys would give a women the opportunity to escape from her attacker.

 

Truthfully I just could not disagree more. BJJ can be extremely effective in all situations. Also, alot of these "self defense" moves taught to women during rape seminars and the like are usually taught by "krav maga" instructors, but in reality are not at all what Krav Maga was originally designed for. It is supposed to be for Elite Military Combat. The fact of the matter is that a majority of the "KM" stuff out there being presented as self defense for women has shown to be somewhat ineffective for real world situations. Jiu Jitsu on the other hand, was designed to be used by the smaller weaker opponent and has been absolutely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be effective in real world self defense situations.

[loveliberate]

Michele,

 

It's awesome that you are looking at getting into defensive training!

 

While I can understand why women might wish to train primarily with women, particularly when they are getting started - I would avoidalways training only with/against women.

 

Here's some questions you may want to ask yourself & any potential instructors you speak with:

 

- What schools/trainers are available to you?

- What are the instructors credentials?

- Does the instructor themselves show you their techniques & join the class in training?

- What does the school focus on & how will they offer you the opportunity to train under as realistic of conditions as are possible without someone getting killed / seriously injured?

- Will the school/trainers traing schedule work with your own schedule?

- How much will the training cost / how much can you afford to pay?

- Does the training include work on learning to avoid real fights through awareness, de-escalation, etc?

- Do the instructors have a good knowledge of your area's laws as they relate to self-defense?

- Will the instructor/s vouch for you and/or your training if you ever have to use it in real life & have to justify your actions to a court?

- Does the training include defense against weapons?

- Does the training include the defensive use of weapons?

 

Hope that helps!

[pelicanAndrew]

Generally i've heard that if you find a good dojo, the martial art that they teach is going to be the best for you.

 

The same thing holds true for lots of lessons; music, sports, etc. Find a trainer that you click with and can stand his/her instruction and learn what they have to teach.

[veganmomma]

The fact of the matter is that a majority of the "KM" stuff out there being presented as self defense for women has shown to be somewhat ineffective for real world situations.

Jiu Jitsu on the other hand, was designed to be used by the smaller weaker opponent and has been absolutely proven beyond a shadow of a doubt to be effective in real world self defense situations.

Is your opinion based on fact or opinion? I could introduce you to many women who have trained in KM who would tell you that your opinion is inaccurate.

 

For women, yes I would agree that BJJ would be effective because most male versus female attacks go to the ground. Your claim sounds a bit arrogant as if you are impling that BJJ is superior to any other martial art every created by humankind. I personally get annoyed by such outrageous claims about the superiority of BJJ.

 

Fighting Myths - notes from the American Society of Law Enforcement Trainers Conference

 

One of the myths about personal protection is the old misquoted statistic, "90% of all fights wind up on the ground." This statistic has been used to sell ground fighting systems as the ultimate in self defense. If you have been in the martial arts or personal protection game long enough you have certainly heard this thing tossed around. You may have even heard the source - "according to the LAPD".

 

That statistic is wrong, AND misused.

 

The ASLET conference featured training in joint lock takedowns with retired sergeant John L. Sommers, the very man who conducted the use of force study with the LAPD and designed their defensive tactics program. His study looked at 6000 use of force reports from the LAPD and found that 60% of the time the arresting officer was knocked to the ground. One of the major reasons for this is that California has the 3 strikes rule and recidivist criminals are more likely to fight back to try to get away. Here are some of the main problems with the way this statistic is misused:

 

1. The percentage is 60% not 90% the numbers are frequently inflated to seem more convincing. While 60% is a majority, that means that more than one third of incidents did not result in an officer being knocked down. Also, the statistics did not measure "fights" but officer use of force reports.

 

2. The actual study was of officer use of force incidents in LA and did not study self defense situations involving civilians. You cannot apply the data from one representative sample to an entirely different population. If 98% of the population of the Philippines eats rice for three meals a day, you cannot also say that people living in Kansas also eat rice for three meals a day. It is a non-representative sample.

 

3. The use (misuse) of statistics is frequently combined with false but logical-sounding conclusions. A single data point is used to represent conclusions that the data does not indeed support. This makes an argument sound very credible even when it is not. Example = 100% of all people that consumed carrots in 1889 are now dead - therefore carrots kill you, so you better stop eating them.

 

On top of all this, the statistic is used to make people think that going to the ground is a good idea.

 

To quote Sergeant Sommers, (who worked with the Gracies, the Machados, Benny Urquidez and several other top martial artists) "I don't ever recommend you go to the ground." The very author of the study and designer of the training program thinks going to the ground is a very bad idea.

 

It sounds to me like it is a good idea to stay off the ground but know what to do if you do wind up there. This is what I have been saying, and what law enforcement and military folks have told me for years. Notice I did NOT say that you shouldn't study ground fighting. On the contrary, I think it's very important. But you do not want to waste time doing arm bars and figure 4's, you want to do what you must to get back on your feet as fast as possible.

 

Also keep in mind that the moment you throw somebody to the ground, climb on them, and punch them - you are committing assault and battery in most jurisdictions. The hockey dad case in Massachusetts is an example. Thomas Junta was assaulted in front of his children. He then grounded and punched his assailant who hit his head on the concrete and died. Mr. Junta is now serving time for involuntary manslaughter.

 

Additional information regarding civilian fights.

 

Male versus Male - Age 18 and up

 

In studying real life fights involving this group of civilians, we find that no more than 40% fights ever went to the ground. When the fights did go to the ground, it was typically due to two main reasons:

 

1. Ineffective technique that led to the combatants becoming fatigued and frustrated and proceeding to a grapple, and then to falling on the ground.

 

2. One of the combatants actually tripping and falling.

 

Male versus Female - Age 18 and up

 

The percentage is much higher with male versus female. Typically 80% or more. This is due to the nature of the attack. Men attack women for the purpose of control and exploitation, such as rape. Going to the ground is typical for these assaults.

 

Children versus Children

 

It is not uncommon for the typical schoolyard brawl to end up in a wrestling match on the ground. The assaults are usually not intended to inflict physical harm but rather to control. Hence punches and strikes may not be considered. The outcome of these altercations are typically much less severe than real adult confrontations.

 

Found at: http://www.edatkd.com/fighting_myths.htm

 

Edited 1 time.

[xdarthveganx]

you basically proved my point with all of that. GOOD JOB!

 

Really your whole argument is quite redicolous especially when factor in the fact that a BJJ practitioner will also know HOW to take the fight to the ground at any moment they please. My opinions are based on fact, seeing as a MAJORITY of my family has served in the Israeli Military and knows full well what KM is good for and what it is not. End of story.

Edited January 16, 2007 by xdarthveganx

[veganmomma]

you basically proved my point with all of that. GOOD JOB!

 

Really your whole argument is quite redicolous especially when factor in the fact that a BJJ practitioner will also know HOW to take the fight to the ground at any moment they please. My opinions are based on fact seeing as good MAJORITY of my entire family has served in the Israeli Military and knows full well what KM is good for and what it is not. End of story.

I proved your point that BJJ is superior to all other martial arts? No, I don't think so. I have trained with BJJ practitioners who could not take a street fight to the ground against ANY attacker at any moment they please. The effectiveness of a martial art depends not only on the MA itself but the individual practioner and how much time and practice they put in to it. Also, take into consideration that their are martial artists who have trained in every MA who have had their asre kicked in a street fight.

 

Do not belittle and demean my arguements by calling them ridiculous. You make it sound as if anyone who trains in BJJ will come out relatively unharmed and safe in EVERY street confrontation. That is an obsurd claim.

 

Your opinons are based on fact? End of story. Although your family has served in the Israeli Military, how does that prove that martial artists who have trained at civilian KM schools could not defend themselves in a street situation. Have you ever trained with or spoken to anyone who has trained at a civilian KM school who has successfuly used KM in a street situation? I have. They work as bouncers at bars and clubs.

 

Edited 1 time.

[xdarthveganx]

you basically proved my point with all of that. GOOD JOB!

 

Really your whole argument is quite redicolous especially when factor in the fact that a BJJ practitioner will also know HOW to take the fight to the ground at any moment they please. My opinions are based on fact seeing as good MAJORITY of my entire family has served in the Israeli Military and knows full well what KM is good for and what it is not. End of story.

I proved your point that BJJ is superior to all other martial arts? No, I don't think so. I have trained with BJJ practitioners who could not take a street fight to the ground against ANY attacker at any moment they please. The effectiveness of a martial art depends not only on the MA itself but the individual practioner and how much time and practice they put in to it. Also, take into consideration that their are martial artists who have trained in every MA who have had their asre kicked in a street fight.

 

Do not belittle and demean my arguements by calling them ridiculous. You make it sound as if anyone who trains in BJJ will come out relatively unharmed and safe in EVERY street confrontation. That is an obsurd claim.

 

Your opinons are based on fact? End of story. Although your family has served in the Israeli Military, how does that prove that martial artists who have trained at civilian KM schools could not defend themselves in a street situation. Have you ever trained with or spoken to anyone who has trained at a civilian KM school who has successfuly used KM in a street situation? I have. They work as bouncers at bars and clubs.

 

 

 

 

Edited 1 time.

Edited January 16, 2007 by xdarthveganx

[xdarthveganx]

This is what I was reffering to when I said u proved my point:

 

The percentage is much higher with male versus female. Typically 80% or more. This is due to the nature of the attack. Men attack women for the purpose of control and exploitation, such as rape. Going to the ground is typical for these assaults.

[xdarthveganx]

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1931229279.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[xdarthveganx]

Also one other thing you are not considering, a REAL Krav Maga School with a real instructor is going to practice with live training. Which means, you are basically going to get your ass kicked every single class. Krav Maga is not the type of thing where you can train 100% for a real world situation and not expect to go home beat up every single day. However, just the nature off BJJ allows for you to train your ass off and go home no injuries. (of course there are always exceptions, I did fracture my pinky during one class) but in over 3 years of doing BJJ that is my only injury. The true test of an effective martial art is traing at 100% with a real resisting opponent.

[veganmomma]

Ok, I give in. You proved your point. BJJ is the most superior martial art ever known to mankind. You have repeated the same thing 3-5 times already.

[xdarthveganx]

Ok, I give in. You proved your point. BJJ is the most superior martial art ever known to mankind. You have repeated the same thing 3-5 times already.

 

If you were to learn a single martial art it is. It is the single most effective martial art at this moment. Considering its use in MMA that only solidifies its effectiveness in a real world situation. Also the original poster asked for a martial art in which she could train effectively without being completely thrashed by the time she was done. Krav Maga can NOT provide that, and still be taught effectively.

[veganmomma]

If you were to learn a single martial art it is. It is the single most effective martial art at this moment. Considering its use in MMA that only solidifies its effectiveness in a real world situation.

There aren't any rules in a street fight. There are rules in MMA. Can a competitor kick his opponent in the head while they are on the ground? What about knee strikes to the top of the head while an opponent is on the ground? A striker whether a martial artist, boxer or a street thug is going to be more agressive in a street fight than they would in competition. Why? They are not conserving their energy for the next round and they are not concerned or thinking about whether or not the the other guy is going to put them in a joint lock or choke because the average guy on the streets doesn't know how to apply those techniques. And while you are on the ground in a street fight remember the other guys friends are waiting for the opportunity to kick you in the head.

 

If you think that applying a joint lock or choke is that simple to apply in a street situation with the other guys adrenaline pumping because he is really pissed off, then I think you probably haven't been in many street fights or the guys you have fought couldn't fight. 3 years experience ain't that much. I know guys who have been training in BJJ for 10 years who will tell you that applying a grappling technique in a street fight isn't always as easy as you make it sound.

[xdarthveganx]

If you were to learn a single martial art it is. It is the single most effective martial art at this moment. Considering its use in MMA that only solidifies its effectiveness in a real world situation.

There aren't any rules in a street fight. There are rules in MMA. Can a competitor kick his opponent in the head while they are on the ground? What about knee strikes to the top of the head while an opponent is on the ground? A striker whether a martial artist, boxer or a street thug is going to be more agressive in a street fight than they would in competition. Why? They are not conserving their energy for the next round and they are not concerned or thinking about whether or not the the other guy is going to put them in a joint lock or choke because the average guy on the streets doesn't know how to apply those techniques. And while you are on the ground in a street fight remember the other guys friends are waiting for the opportunity to kick you in the head.

 

If you think that applying a joint lock or choke is that simple to apply in a street situation with the other guys adrenaline pumping because he is really pissed off, then I think you probably haven't been in many street fights or the guys you have fought couldn't fight. 3 years experience ain't that much. I know guys who have been training in BJJ for 10 years who will tell you that applying a grappling technique in a street fight isn't always as easy as you make it sound.

 

Thats funny because the four black belts @ my school would tell you differently. I find it funny that you have run around every single example I have given and avoided the points I made about effectively training Krav Maga without being beat up every single day. 3 years inst enough for a street fight? I grew up in Southern CA which is the Mecca for MMA I have seen BJJ used effectively in street fights by people with a whole lot less experience than 3 years. I myself have taken on those so called "bouncers" at clubs with my measly 3 years experience. I never once said Krav Maga is not an effective martial art. But can it be trained properly by someone who dosent want to come home bloody and bruised every single day?I know for a fact that it cant. Have you ever even trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or are you just spouting off against it? As I mentioned earlier I have trained Krav Maga, and I know what it entails. Keep that in mind next time.

[veganmomma]

Thats funny because the four black belts @ my school would tell you differently. I find it funny that you have run around every single example I have given and avoided the points I made about effectively training Krav Maga without being beat up every single day. 3 years inst enough for a street fight? I grew up in Southern CA which is the Mecca for MMA I have seen BJJ used effectively in street fights by people with a whole lot less experience than 3 years. I myself have taken on those so called "bouncers" at clubs with my measly 3 years experience. I never once said Krav Maga is not an effective martial art. But can it be trained properly by someone who dosent want to come home bloody and bruised every single day?I know for a fact that it cant. Have you ever even trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or are you just spouting off against it? As I mentioned earlier I have trained Krav Maga, and I know what it entails. Keep that in mind next time.

1. Some people are natural fighters, some people are. You and others may be able to effectively use BJJ after 3 years training or less, others may not.

 

2. No I don't beleive a person has to be beat up eveyday to be able to use any martial art effectively. My boss has been training in Aikido for 17 years, does not get beat up everday, however I wouldn't mess with HER. She could f*** up most guys I know. I agree that getting beat up i.e. "live training" would better prepare a person for a streetfight as far as learning how to take a "hit." However I know martial artists who don't do a lot of "live" training or sparring who could cripple someone.

 

3. Yes, I have trained in BJJ. Not very long 2 months because I injured my knee in Muay Thai class and I did not recover for 6 months. My old instructor is a black belt and has been training for 10-13 years. He weighs 150lbs and could cripple someone. He supplements his BJJ training with Judo. I NEVER implied BJJ is not an effective MA for street combat. My only crticism is of your assertion that BJJ is superior to all other MA.

 

4. How long have you trained in KM? Did you serve in the Israeli Military? You said your entire family has.

 

5. What are you doing getting into street fights with bouncers? Did you get into MA to be a bad asre? If so then you got into MA for the wrong reasons IMO.

[veganmomma]

xdarthveganx, I have to go beat up my heavy bag and then watch 24. So we will have to continue this discussion on Thursday. I will be at work all day tomorrow. "May the force be with you always."

[xdarthveganx]

Thats funny because the four black belts @ my school would tell you differently. I find it funny that you have run around every single example I have given and avoided the points I made about effectively training Krav Maga without being beat up every single day. 3 years inst enough for a street fight? I grew up in Southern CA which is the Mecca for MMA I have seen BJJ used effectively in street fights by people with a whole lot less experience than 3 years. I myself have taken on those so called "bouncers" at clubs with my measly 3 years experience. I never once said Krav Maga is not an effective martial art. But can it be trained properly by someone who dosent want to come home bloody and bruised every single day?I know for a fact that it cant. Have you ever even trained Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or are you just spouting off against it? As I mentioned earlier I have trained Krav Maga, and I know what it entails. Keep that in mind next time.

1. Some people are natural fighters, some people are. You and others may be able to effectively use BJJ after 3 years training or less, others may not.

 

2. No I don't beleive a person has to be beat up eveyday to be able to use any martial art effectively. My boss has been training in Aikido for 17 years, does not get beat up everday, however I wouldn't mess with HER. She could f*** up most guys I know. I agree that getting beat up i.e. "live training" would better prepare a person for a streetfight as far as learning how to take a "hit." However I know martial artists who don't do a lot of "live" training or sparring who could cripple someone.

 

3. Yes, I have trained in BJJ. Not very long 2 months because I injured my knee in Muay Thai class and I did not recover for 6 months. My old instructor is a black belt and has been training for 10-13 years. He weighs 150lbs and could cripple someone. He supplements his BJJ training with Judo. I NEVER implied BJJ is not an effective MA for street combat. My only crticism is of your assertion that BJJ is superior to all other MA.

 

4. How long have you trained in KM? Did you serve in the Israeli Military? You said your entire family has.

 

5. What are you doing getting into street fights with bouncers? Did you get into MA to be a bad asre? If so then you got into MA for the wrong reasons IMO.

 

 

1. Again, I really disagree with this assumption. BJJ is effective with such little experience because ground fighting is something that is so foreign to someone with no knowledge of it. As a number of my coaches will tell you, the movements used in BJJ are not something that our body is accustomed to, that is why BJJ can be applied so effectively in a street fight.

 

2. I believe that you truly think as you do, and perhaps you are correct. However your wording implies you do not know this to be a fact, therefore it is still another assumption on your part. Again your comment about not needing live training is also an assumption as you do not know these things to be true. I base my statements off of what I have seen with my own two eyes, not based on what I would expect the outcome of certain situations would be.

 

3. Judo is a great addition to BJJ as is Muay Thai. I do not think BJJ is the end all for martial arts, however I believe if you must pick one MA to train in, BJJ would be most effective.

 

4. A large portion of my Family has served in the Israeli Military. My fathers family lived in Israel for many years. Before leaving the military my father was recruited for Moussad a position in which he chose to decline. I have been around KM my entire life, and have personally trained in it for 6 months, feeling that I was getting more out of BJJ I continued doing that.

 

5. The nature of my teenage lifestyle, growing up in Orange County, CA being into the Hardcore scene, it was natural part of my surroundings to personally end up in or see street fights happen on a regular basis. On top of that I would say approx 25% of my close friends growing up are now enjoying semi successful MMA careers, including but not limited too Shooto Japan, King of the Cage and UFC. In fact my previous instructor from CA, was a 2x King of the Cage Lightweight champion, Pride Veteran, UFC veteran, Shooto Veteran, and Gladiator Challenge champion.

[veganmomma]

darth, we hijacked this thread discussion. This thread discussion is about "What martial arts for women? We can either start a new thread discussion here or we can continue this discussion on VF.

 

What is the Most Efficient Style for Street Fighting?

http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7777

 

Fighting Myths

http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1312

 

Over rated and Under rated techniques

http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7497

 

Is aliveness essential to MA?

http://www.veganfitness.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7886

[suz]

Michele,

 

Check out my training log to get an idea of what kickboxing is all about: http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=5014

 

Our classes are a wicked full body work out, very male/female balanced, and super fun. In terms of self defence... you'll probably get that from any martial art because so much of self defence is just having confidence. Confidence so that people don't target you in the first place, and confidence to be able to react if something does happen. You could probably argue until the cows come home about what martial art is the best for self defence, but really it all comes down to reacting, getting in maybe one good kick, and running like hell.

[michellekdo]

hi suz,

thanks i enjoyed reading your post and it helped me to get a better idea about kick boxing.