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State of the Union Undress- PETA


xveganjoshx
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I agree with what you're saying about sexism Liz, and I am not in support of this nudity thing. But I don't know if this is necessarily sexism. It could be a male spokesperson taking his clothes off, and I'd still be against it, just because the nudity aspect of it doesn't seem appropriate to me, regardless of the gender. But yeah, it does seem like an obligatory choice that it would be a woman stripping off her clothes. And also I think this sort of thing supports the stereotype that women's bodies are something to use to get attention, which sucks, and it isn't a good message to give to anyone.

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I don't think women can't be sexhist...Anne Caulther is more sexist than nearly every man on the planet.

 

Anyway I think its fine to question this but if its doing some good then maybe its worth it. Just look at Booker T. Washington. He made concessions for blacks in order to cause some positive change instead of complete change. Sometimes big steps can't be taken.

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It's not at all the same thing. What you are talking about is people involved in causes choosing their battles--sometimes compromising on one specific issue in order to make progress on a different issue. The idea there is that it is sometimes necessary to work on the specific issues that society is most ready to make progress on, even if that means putting other very important issues on the back burner. The issues that are put aside or compromised on are still seen as important and the intention to address them when it's more feasible is there. That's not at all what PETA is doing. They aren't planning to tackle sexism, but just putting it aside for now because they see other issues as being more likely to be accepted. PETA is an animal issue group and I'm sure that fighting sexism is not part of their plan at all. In addition, we aren't criticizing them for simply not fighting against sexism--again, that's not what they exist for and we don't expect them to fight on every single issue that exists. They are being criticized for actively exploiting and playing into sexist attitudes. In other words, they are using one group in order to help a different group. We don't expect them to help every group, but not actively acting against them isn't too much to ask.

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Good point. The definitely aren't progressing women's causes by any means. I just think they do whatever possible to help animals and if this works...even if it works badly it still works which is why they will continue. The have tons of mild campaigns that work very well too...they have too much money for their own good but it must be spent...therefore they do everything.

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Very grown up ... resorting to using abusive language to get your point across!!

 

When you can debate like an adult get back to me and we can continue. Until then I will ignore you

 

Right, you cant even debate without making shit up, and putting words in my mouth. Youre only pissed because you show skin to get attention on the internet. Get over yourself

I don't think that is fair. I respect Tigress's view and opinion on this - or anything else - regardless of whether she decides to post sexy pics on a forum. Incidentally on this, I happen to agree with her.

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Very grown up ... resorting to using abusive language to get your point across!!

 

When you can debate like an adult get back to me and we can continue. Until then I will ignore you

 

Right, you cant even debate without making shit up, and putting words in my mouth. Youre only pissed because you show skin to get attention on the internet. Get over yourself

I don't think that is fair. I respect Tigress's view and opinion on this - or anything else - regardless of whether she decides to post sexy pics on a forum. Incidentally on this, I happen to agree with her.

 

 

I wasn't bothered by her opinion. I got pissed because for simply stating my honest well thought out opinion, I was told that I think of women as unintelligent creatures who can't and shouldn't be able to make decisions for themselves. That is outrageous to say the least, any backlash from me was to say, at the very least well deserved.

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Very grown up ... resorting to using abusive language to get your point across!!

 

When you can debate like an adult get back to me and we can continue. Until then I will ignore you

 

Right, you cant even debate without making shit up, and putting words in my mouth. Youre only pissed because you show skin to get attention on the internet. Get over yourself

I don't think that is fair. I respect Tigress's view and opinion on this - or anything else - regardless of whether she decides to post sexy pics on a forum. Incidentally on this, I happen to agree with her.

 

 

 

I wasn't bothered by her opinion. I got pissed because for simply stating my honest well thought out opinion, I was told that I think of women as unintelligent creatures who can't and shouldn't be able to make decisions for themselves. That is outrageous to say the least, any backlash from me was to say, at the very least well deserved.

 

Dude personal attacks, especially the one you made, are never well deserved. What you said was way out of line even if Tigress's put words in your mouth.

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Very grown up ... resorting to using abusive language to get your point across!!

 

When you can debate like an adult get back to me and we can continue. Until then I will ignore you

 

Right, you cant even debate without making shit up, and putting words in my mouth. Youre only pissed because you show skin to get attention on the internet. Get over yourself

I don't think that is fair. I respect Tigress's view and opinion on this - or anything else - regardless of whether she decides to post sexy pics on a forum. Incidentally on this, I happen to agree with her.

 

 

 

I wasn't bothered by her opinion. I got pissed because for simply stating my honest well thought out opinion, I was told that I think of women as unintelligent creatures who can't and shouldn't be able to make decisions for themselves. That is outrageous to say the least, any backlash from me was to say, at the very least well deserved.

 

Dude personal attacks, especially the one you made, are never well deserved. What you said was way out of line even if Tigress's put words in your mouth.

 

I wasn't the one who decided to throw out personal attacks first, try and keep that in mind. Also there is much more to this than just this thread.

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I;m usually of the mind that 2 wrongs don't make a right. And considering you're trying to argue from a feminist standpoint making cheap shots about a women's choices kind of discredits what your saying. I can understand getting emotional about it but it doesn't help you and what you said could be quite hurtful. If someone judged my opinions because there are naked pictures of me on the internet I'd be pissed. Besides it's just an ad hominem, attack, pretty much the worst argument you can make.

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sorry, I dont walk on fucking egg shells. I say what I think and make no bones about it. I am certain there are a lot more people that feel the way that I do that choose to not openly speak about it. So honestly, get over it im not saying anything that countless people dont already think.

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You can say the same thing but in a less aggressive way. I also don't agree with Tigress, but you can explain yourself calmly whilst still disagreeing. I don't know where she was coming from when she made the assumptions about what you were saying, but I don't see how it helps to become more hostile about it, it's just going to lead to more arguments, it won't help anybody understand each other better, just makes friction. I agree with what your actual point of view is.

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I guess asking people not to be rude is too much...

whatever if that's how you want to be

 

 

I just choose not to candy coat things, if I have problem with you, you will know it. If I think you are the best person in the world, you will know it. That is just how I work. I don't feel the need to water down how I feel about things so that peoples feelings arent "hurt" by what you say. I was respectful up until the point I was disrespected, that is all I expect of myself. After that it is open season.

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  • 3 weeks later...
I've read a number of discussions about PETA's sexist actions and there are some things that I see come up repeatedly.

 

I often see the response that women take part willingly. The implication is that it is therefore not sexist. This argument relies on the assumption that anything a woman does cannot be sexist against women or cannot be supportive of societal sexist attitudes. I think that assumption is completely without validity. Women can be sexist. Women can buy into sexist attitudes and act in ways that further them. They can do this of their own "free will". I use quotes because we all are influenced by societal attitudes about all sorts of things and though we think we are acting of our own free will, that will is subtly and perhaps unconsciously influenced by those societal attitudes. It's easier to see this if we look at societies or traditions that seem obviously sexist to us--for example, female genital mutilation or rules/laws in some coutries that forbid women from leaving the house without a male relative. We would look at that and consider those things harmful to and oppressive of women. However, many of the women who are subject to these things take part in them of their own free will, defend them, and even pressure other women to conform to them. The fact that women do this does not mean that these things are not sexist.

 

Second, I often see men who criticize or analyze these kinds of things being accused of being paternalistic towards women. I also think that is completely unjustified. If we are all equal, why shouldn't a man be able to analyze and criticize the actions of women in exactly they way they would the actions of a another man or the way a woman would the actions of another woman. Women's actions are not pure or perfect. Women sometimes make wrong decisions. We sometimes make decisions that are harmful to other women, or to men, or to society. We shouldn't set up a situation in which as long as women are acting "freely" whatever we do is OK. If women are equal, then that means that we can make mistakes, can be blind to what influences our decisions, can act in ways that are selfish--to our own benefit at the expense of others--just like men can. And any member of society, men included, should be free to call us on it.

 

I think that both of my points can be summed up pretty simply. Whether women take part in these campaigns "of their free will" is completely beside the point. It has absolutely no bearing on whether the campaigns are or are not sexist. Whether a woman chooses "freely" to do something has no bearing on whether it is right or wrong to do it or whether the action is harmful or beneficial to society and the other people in it.

Great post, Liz.

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It's not at all the same thing. What you are talking about is people involved in causes choosing their battles--sometimes compromising on one specific issue in order to make progress on a different issue. The idea there is that it is sometimes necessary to work on the specific issues that society is most ready to make progress on, even if that means putting other very important issues on the back burner. The issues that are put aside or compromised on are still seen as important and the intention to address them when it's more feasible is there. That's not at all what PETA is doing. They aren't planning to tackle sexism, but just putting it aside for now because they see other issues as being more likely to be accepted. PETA is an animal issue group and I'm sure that fighting sexism is not part of their plan at all. In addition, we aren't criticizing them for simply not fighting against sexism--again, that's not what they exist for and we don't expect them to fight on every single issue that exists. They are being criticized for actively exploiting and playing into sexist attitudes. In other words, they are using one group in order to help a different group. We don't expect them to help every group, but not actively acting against them isn't too much to ask.

Another great post, Liz -- especially that last part.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Stupid stupid stupid pointless publicity stunt. Even if you don't care that things like this totally REINFORCE and ENCOURAGE sexism (just as bad as speciesism, people), this shit alienates other progressive-minded people (e.g. feminists, some of the people who are very likely to be on our side otherwise)! We need to be aggressively courting other social justice activists--feminists, ethnic activists, peaceniks, etc.

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