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Hi! New 811rv here and I need some advice. I've been trying to go 100% raw for the last few weeks. However, I kind of fell off the bandwagon yesterday. While at work, I was feeling a little hungry so I bought a couple of packages of sesame seed sweet crackers. I felt awful afterwards, itchy all over, runny nose and everything as if I was having an allergic reaction, yet I used to eat them all the time. I'm learning more and more about the whole mucous stuff forming as a defense and I'm really starting to believe it. Could someone give me more details about this please. Ciao

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Hi! New 811rv here and I need some advice. I've been trying to go 100% raw for the last few weeks. However, I kind of fell off the bandwagon yesterday. While at work, I was feeling a little hungry so I bought a couple of packages of sesame seed sweet crackers. I felt awful afterwards, itchy all over, runny nose and everything as if I was having an allergic reaction, yet I used to eat them all the time. I'm learning more and more about the whole mucous stuff forming as a defense and I'm really starting to believe it. Could someone give me more details about this please. Ciao

 

That was a reaction to re-introducing cooked foods to your diet....

 

Read previous post here.... there's plenty of stuff about detox and transitioning

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It could have been any one of a huge number of things.

 

1) Contaminated individual packet

 

2) Alergy having developed since you last ate them

 

3) The fact that crackers are hardly a good or indeed whole food.

 

4) Psychosomatic - you expect a reaction to cooked food, your mind creates one.

 

List goes on....

 

Saying "That was a reaction to re-introducing cooked foods to your diet.... " is bullshit. You cannot possibly know that.

 

Jonathan

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[quote name=

 

Saying "That was a reaction to re-introducing cooked foods to your diet.... " is bullshit. You cannot possibly know that.

 

Jonathan

 

And this comes from someone that is not even raw!!!

 

When you've spent some time 100% raw and you re-introduce cooked food into your diet' date=' your going to get a reaction to the cooked food, the level of the reaction depends on the food and the amount eaten.

 

Reactions can range from added mucus, headache, sluggishness/lethergy, negative attitude, rash, tiredness or coldness.

 

Jonathan....

 

Very rude and typical of a narrow minded person defending the S.A.D lifestyle because they feel threatened in some way so they poo poo the whole raw lifestyle/who they feel most threatened by....I say that based on all the negative/rude posts you've posted on Vegan fitness site in the past regarding me and my achievments and views on the SAD diet/fruitarian lifestyle, you couldn't understand how I could achieve such things on a Fruitarian diet that you didn't agree with so you expressed to me publicly that I was pretty much making up all of my physical achievements because you felt that nobody could possibly do all that I did on just fruits and went about posting rude comments, saying that I was telling everyone to stop eating eating cooked food immediatly and trying to convert everyone to Fruitarianism and I challenge you again to show me where I've ever said/posted that.....I'm pretty much done with being patient with you, if you got an issue with me then your going to have to deal with it and if being a butt hole is how you choose to deal with it then fair enogh, but as for me I'm done, I'm not gonna get into a slanging match with you because to be honest I'd rather use that energy to do something positive/constructive, I'm going to get on with what I do and I'm not going to waste any more time on your crap, so the stage is yours my friend.

 

Like I say I don't mess with the comments you make about stuffing yourself with food in order to get big, I've never been rude to you as an individual and I would expect the same level of respect back, but obviously that ain't gonna happen.

 

So my friend keep on keeping on and I wish you the best, just don't spoil it for anyone else that is interested in the raw lifestyle.

 

Be good. [/quote]

Edited by Bigbwii
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Hey man, just because I disagree with you about something you are fanatical about does not make me rude. You make some pretty amazing claims about the wonders of raw foodism - you have to expect to be challenged about them.

 

Don't spoil it for anyone else that is interested in the raw lifestyle.

 

Everybody on this forum is intelligent enough to make their own decisions. I am simply wishing to provide a counter argument for some of the unchallenged claims of rawfoodism.

 

Like the B12 issue. Suggesting that people supplement with B12 is not me 'spoiling it' for budding raw foodists, but expressing a genuine concern regarding the long term implications of cutting out a vitimin not present in a raw vegan diet.

 

Like the 'detox' issue. Brushing symptoms such as weight loss, tooth problems, listlessness and fatigue under the 'detox' carpet is dangerous. You yourself said 90% of raw foodists are doing it all wrong.

 

Like the ethical issue. Claiming that raw foodism is more ethical when not one single additional animal is saved by going raw foodist.

 

Like the health issue. Claiming raw foodism is the best diet for everyone, when a balanced cooked food vegan diet is just as healthy. I do not defend the Standard American Diet, and never said I did. I defend my own diet though. Plus, almost all health claims seem to come from just a few 'gurus' rather than respected scientists and nutritionalist. Doug Graham is one that seems to come up pretty regularly...

 

Like the environmental issue. Claiming that raw foodism is better for the planet yet providing no evidence to suggest this.

 

At the end of the day man, I am vegan to reduce animal suffering. Me bulking and competing in Strongman is doing this - about 5 weeks ago a Scotlands Strongest Man competitor went vegan, and this is through the influences of about 4 competing vegan strongmen. There are successful vegan athletes in every field except strength sports. That is what I am trying to rectify.

 

If you choose to take constructive debate as personal abuse, then that is your choice, but please do not shy away from the issues you raise by claiming I have something personal against you, and grouping my points as me being vindictive.

 

Be good

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Hey man, just because I disagree with you about something you are fanatical about does not make me rude. You make some pretty amazing claims about the wonders of raw foodism - you have to expect to be challenged about them.

 

Don't spoil it for anyone else that is interested in the raw lifestyle.

 

Everybody on this forum is intelligent enough to make their own decisions. I am simply wishing to provide a counter argument for some of the unchallenged claims of rawfoodism.

 

Like the B12 issue. Suggesting that people supplement with B12 is not me 'spoiling it' for budding raw foodists, but expressing a genuine concern regarding the long term implications of cutting out a vitimin not present in a raw vegan diet.

 

Like the 'detox' issue. Brushing symptoms such as weight loss, tooth problems, listlessness and fatigue under the 'detox' carpet is dangerous. You yourself said 90% of raw foodists are doing it all wrong.

 

Like the ethical issue. Claiming that raw foodism is more ethical when not one single additional animal is saved by going raw foodist.

 

Like the environmental issue. Claiming that raw foodism is better for the planet yet providing no evidence to suggest this.

 

At the end of the day man, I am vegan to reduce animal suffering. Me bulking and competing in Strongman is doing this - about 5 weeks ago a Scotlands Strongest Man competitor went vegan, and this is through the influences of about 4 competing vegan strongmen. There are successful vegan athletes in every field except strength sports. That is what I am trying to rectify.

 

If you choose to take constructive debate as personal abuse, then that is your choice, but please do not shy away from the issues you raise by claiming I have something personal against you, and grouping my points as me being vindictive.

 

Be good :wink

 

Hey man, forgive me but I only brushed through your post real quick but what I did see really didn't make sense, I've never made any of those claims or told people to do or not do specific things that you say I did, but off the top of my head I think the amount of packaging saved by going Fruitarian would be a heck of a lot more as opposed to eating cooked foods, the need for jars, card board, plastic cuttlery/plates, cups, cans, etc would be greatly reduced, I could go on and on but I'd just be wasting my time, plus I would like to think that just as many animals are saved by going raw as there would be by going vegan but I'd be guessing because I personaly have not witnessed any animal being saved because I went Fruitarian, I'm still seeing animal bodyparts being sold in the supermarkets so unfortunatly regardless of you being Vegan and me being Fruitarian animals are still being killed for food, I'm just thinking off the top of my head here because you brought it up in your post, I would never tell someone to supplement or not supplement because that is a personal choice based onthe individuals opinions and needs....and I've never brushed anything underneath the carpet infact I'm one of very few people that tells it like it is, that's whty I post so many articles that expose various myths in the raw community, but you seem to take those as personal attacks against you eating cooked foods,I'm probably the most critical of the raw lifestyle, plus I can only go off of the treatment I've recieved from you in the past....you used to be a cool guy but you went sour when I started posting about Fruitarianism.

 

I don't care if you don't agree with me and I've never cared what you do as a sport because as I always say, we all have our own experiences to go by and I have mine and you have yours and that's cool, I'm not going to dis-respect you or your experience because that's your personal experience and I have no right to do that!

 

BTW....calling my reply "bullshit" is not constructive debate!

And I knew of the reactions because I've been through it a million times before....

 

So go ahead be happy and do your thang, I'm done!

Edited by Bigbwii
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Well I apologise if using the word bullshit offended - I did not mean it in an offensive fashion.

 

The points that I have made above are regarding the claims of raw foodism, not necessarily your claims. I feel that these do need to be brought up for prospective raw foodists as they have the right to be fully informed. Make no mistake, I believe that a properly implemented and researched raw diet is one of the best you can have, but I still think that it would not be sufficient to support me in my sport, so it does have it's limitations.

 

I am still a cool guy Bigbwii - we just don't see eye to eye on diet. I haven't ever meant to offend you, and apologise if I did.

 

Jonathan

 

ps - I still think Fruitarianism is silly!

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Well I apologise if using the word bullshit offended - I did not mean it in an offensive fashion.

 

The points that I have made above are regarding the claims of raw foodism, not necessarily your claims. I feel that these do need to be brought up for prospective raw foodists as they have the right to be fully informed. Make no mistake, I believe that a properly implemented and researched raw diet is one of the best you can have, but I still think that it would not be sufficient to support me in my sport, so it does have it's limitations.

 

I am still a cool guy Bigbwii - we just don't see eye to eye on diet. I haven't ever meant to offend you, and apologise if I did.

 

Jonathan

 

ps - I still think Fruitarianism is silly!

 

Well you've always pointed the finger at ME ...not the rawfood movement...infact my aim is to do EXACTLY the same as you and take on the raw food gurus and there idealistc claims!!!!

 

Think about it....Why do you think I'm so passionate about what I'm doing...it's because I've been through all the ups and downs and I've come out the other side with honours, according to them I cannot possibly do what I do on a Fruitarian diet infact I was told that I wouldn't last two months!!!

 

If you don't get it then that's cool because maybe it's not for you....

 

Most of the articles I post are going against what the raw movement has been conditioned to believe to be true by raw guru's wanting to make a quick buck!!!

 

I'm not even welcome on some rawfood forums because I threaten the admins lively hood!!!

 

My aim is to help people that are motivated to do the raw lifestyle to do it right and to point them to the correct information.....I'm not here to be a guru because the raw lifestyle is too personal to dictate what individiuals do.

 

 

 

Thanks for your apology I really appreciate, it takes a big man to say sorry! but I deserve it coz you have been a butt hole

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Fair enough Big, fair enough. Hey well perhaps in future, in cases such Veganitaliana, we should aim to be more diagnostic as to why she might have had a bad reaction to the cooked food rather than saying it is because of it she felt ill. Same applies in reverse too if people are having excessive detox symptoms we should aim to understand why.

 

I think that any major change in diet is always going to have a significant effect on the body. I think it is important to try to distinguish between this transition phase and potential long term health problems.

 

It is good that you are critical of your diet. I am also critical of my own.

 

Jonathan

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Fair enough Big, fair enough. Hey well perhaps in future, in cases such Veganitaliana, we should aim to be more diagnostic as to why she might have had a bad reaction to the cooked food rather than saying it is because of it she felt ill. Same applies in reverse too if people are having excessive detox symptoms we should aim to understand why.

 

I think that any major change in diet is always going to have a significant effect on the body. I think it is important to try to distinguish between this transition phase and potential long term health problems.

 

It is good that you are critical of your diet. I am also critical of my own.

 

Jonathan

 

Well the differance for me is that I've been down the road before and I know the signs, just like if someone asks you about how to gain weight you can share what you know and to be honest with yo, going raw is really very simple and you will be able to see what's detox and whats not once you've spent some time at it.

 

I don't care if you don't agree with what I say because everyone has their own experience and that's all we can share.

 

But yeah I think the main thing is that this section stays positive and informative for the betterment of the newbies.

 

Take care man....

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Big I love the way you are passionate about raw, and it has influenced me a great deal, i've been eating raw for a while now. One thing i'm always curious of is your story about eating cooked foods in '05. Isn't the mass you have now from that bulking period? I understand the fat and water retention part, but isn't a lot of the muscle you've got now from that bulking phase?

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after re-introducing some cooked foods into my diet (good and bad results):

 

-itchy all over

-broken out (acne) all over

-rash on back of arms

-sluggish/sleepy all the time

-feel more emotionally/mentally stable and stronger

-physically feel stronger and more powerful

-mentally feel more stable

-body getting bigger/muscle

-more energy in the longrun (long bike rides, etc.)

-loss of muscle definition

-water bloating

-dehydrated and thirsty all the time

-lots of mucous (nose, back of throat, etc.)

-odor/smell

-sweat a lot more now

-gas

-increase in amount of feces (more poop)

 

no idea if I am gonna stick with eating cooked foods and lots of raw fruits, or just try to tough it out and go 100% raw/fruit again.

 

physical effects on me:

when i was 100% raw/fruitarian:

good: 100% clear skin, sleep 5-6 hours, light/clean feeling, great muscle definition, barely sweated, bright eyes

bad: weak, loss of muscle mass, loss of strength, emotionally unstable, headaches, no long term energy (tired on bike rides, etc.)

 

physical effects on me:

when i eat cooked foods:

good: very strong, easy muscle mass gain, more energy for long run, great size and strength

bad: acne, itchy, rash, sluggish/sleepy, very thirsty all the time, sweat a lot, smell, naps, gas

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Big I love the way you are passionate about raw, and it has influenced me a great deal, i've been eating raw for a while now. One thing i'm always curious of is your story about eating cooked foods in '05. Isn't the mass you have now from that bulking period? I understand the fat and water retention part, but isn't a lot of the muscle you've got now from that bulking phase?

 

No sir, because when I went fruitarian again I lost all of that....you will only maintain that bulk as long as you are eating that way, once you stop eating that way it all will go away as fast as it came!

 

By the way, that bulk was not muscle mass and never has been, I think a lot of us mistake bulk/mass for muscle!

 

I really don't have the bulk I had when I was on cooked food, I'm much, much leaner now and my body has changed a lot, especialy in my stomach area and I feel much better for it but that's just me.

Edited by Bigbwii
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@VI: As you can see, we have a very respectful wayto solve the problem of different attitudes here. Maybe it is kind of strange to you that after your seventh post (just a little "I-made-a-rawfood-experience") a passionate debate between two longtime-members took place.

I hope this does not stop you from posting more of your experiences and questions

 

@Hero: I am at the end of my transition phase (hopefully ) and I feel my power and energy is coming back right now.

 

@Jonathan:

1. There is no need to defend yourself and/or your diet.

2. I have a lot of respect for you being able to apologize!

3. You are correct about the longterm-problems and that, regardless what diet someone is on, signs of possible deficiency have to receive attention.

4. Since you do not have personal experience with a rawfood-diet: Why do you think you can give someone asking an authentic advice. Your first answer suggests that you are more guessing than answering out of personal experience and knowledge.

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First, I'm sorry if I've caused a stir. That's been happening a lot to me lately. It started on VF a couple months back when this young man came on board and started singing the praises of Dr. Graham. He was dished a lot by most of the other forum members. Some even started to make anti-raw rant posts. This whole reaction only intrigued me more and I quickly ordered Dr. Graham's book 811rv. I've been researching raw even more since, and I like what I read so far. I'm also pushing the debate on VF and asking people to question whether the whole cooking thing isn't just a bad habit that really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I came to VBB not to cause a debate about the whole raw thing, but to hopefully find a place where I wasn't considered a nutcase for embracing the raw idea. Instead it's caused fighting here too and I'm sorry about that.

 

Going back to my reaction to the seeds/crackers. I wasn't, at least consciously, expecting a reaction because Dr. Graham does recommend some seeds. It was only after my reaction that it dawned on me that the things were cooked. I don't deny the possibility that it might be psychosomatic either, but to me the psyche is also very important to good health, so even if it was caused by my head I still had physical manifestations.

 

Big, could you give me the links to the past posts, just to quicken my search please?

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First, I'm sorry if I've caused a stir. That's been happening a lot to me lately. It started on VF a couple months back when this young man came on board and started singing the praises of Dr. Graham. He was dished a lot by most of the other forum members. Some even started to make anti-raw rant posts. This whole reaction only intrigued me more and I quickly ordered Dr. Graham's book 811rv. I've been researching raw even more since, and I like what I read so far. I'm also pushing the debate on VF and asking people to question whether the whole cooking thing isn't just a bad habit that really doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I came to VBB not to cause a debate about the whole raw thing, but to hopefully find a place where I wasn't considered a nutcase for embracing the raw idea. Instead it's caused fighting here too and I'm sorry about that.

 

Going back to my reaction to the seeds/crackers. I wasn't, at least consciously, expecting a reaction because Dr. Graham does recommend some seeds. It was only after my reaction that it dawned on me that the things were cooked. I don't deny the possibility that it might be psychosomatic either, but to me the psyche is also very important to good health, so even if it was caused by my head I still had physical manifestations.

 

Big, could you give me the links to the past posts, just to quicken my search please?

 

Yes unfortunatly this reaction is pretty much common place anywhere you go, you are going to come across people that will be extremely rude/negative towards you and the raw lifestyle and those that live it are grossly miss-understood and much fearv and bitterness surrounds it.

 

I went through it for years when I first started out and this even happens in the raw community when you try to talk about Fruitarianism, you just got to live your life as you see fit and not rely on other peoples acceptance.

 

The thing with me and Jonathan has been going on long before you came here so don't think you started anything.

 

For that reason you got to be a strong person to mainain the raw lifestyle in every way...it's pretty hard to find a place where Fruitarians/Raw Vegans can chill out and share their experences without watching their backs, you got to be careful where you share your raw food stuff because people can get pretty defensive/offended, almost as if your accusing them of not doing what they can for their health.

 

As far as links go, do the leg work yourself, just go through this section and pick what relates to you!

 

Note to Rob: I don't mean to step on anybodies toes but, I think this section needs to be moderated by an experienced Raw Vegan that can recognised and protect the raw members from various situations a head of time and handle it accordingly.....as I said before non-raw vegans that come here need to be respectful of the raw lifestyle and considerate of the efforts of the raw vegans here....this lifestyle ain't no fad/joke and many people that live it have already had to put up with verbal attacks/insults....just a thought

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I think it's fine dude - I hadn't seen this disagreement, I mainly check the vegan lifestyle, animal rights and relationships forums for arguments because that's kind of where I expect them - but I will keep a close eye here, now that I realise that there is contention on the subject of cooking food or not.

 

Yeah, it could have just been a friendly disagreement / discussion if it wasn't for Johnny saying 'bullshit'. His post and his points of view could have been exactly the same without that word and there wasn't really a need for it. I don't know everything else that's been happening on other forums and stuff, but as far as I am concerned, there isn't a need to try to belittle someone else's point of view - just talk about it rationally to get to the bottom of it, and if your point of view seems incompatible with someone else's, then there's no point continuing, or being rude about it.

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I think it's fine dude - I hadn't seen this disagreement, I mainly check the vegan lifestyle, animal rights and relationships forums for arguments because that's kind of where I expect them - but I will keep a close eye here, now that I realise that there is contention on the subject of cooking food or not.

 

Yeah, it could have just been a friendly disagreement / discussion if it wasn't for Johnny saying 'bullshit'. His post and his points of view could have been exactly the same without that word and there wasn't really a need for it. I don't know everything else that's been happening on other forums and stuff, but as far as I am concerned, there isn't a need to try to belittle someone else's point of view - just talk about it rationally to get to the bottom of it, and if your point of view seems incompatible with someone else's, then there's no point continuing, or being rude about it.

 

Yeah your right...

 

I knew it would only be a matter of time because this section has been surprisingly trouble free for some time, which is amazing for a raw food section!!!!

 

But I wanted to give a heads up because I know that raw food forums/sections are notorious for fighting and can get hi-jacked and turned into chaos if not watched.

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The VBB forums in general are pretty good I think, in terms of low amounts of fights. I use lots of forums, and quit a lot of them because of fights and stuff, but I haven't really had that problem here. However, yeah I will keep an eye on this section, I'll be visiting it myself anyway now that I am doing the 30 day raw thing, hopefully longer if I like it. I peed a lot today

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The VBB forums in general are pretty good I think, in terms of low amounts of fights. I use lots of forums, and quit a lot of them because of fights and stuff, but I haven't really had that problem here. However, yeah I will keep an eye on this section, I'll be visiting it myself anyway now that I am doing the 30 day raw thing, hopefully longer if I like it. I peed a lot today

 

Well don't get too peed off!!!

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First, I'm sorry if I've caused a stir. That's been happening a lot to me lately

 

VI, I'm glad that you are posting over here now.

I've been reading your posts over at VF.net

Honestly, I don't know how you and Ha can keep it up.

But I'm glad you keep pushing, you will help someone.

 

They have been almost hostile towards raw over there.

You mentioned the anti-raw rant thread.

I don't even read that thread anymore.

 

Overall VeganBodyBuilding.com is very supportive of raw.

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When I think of raw eating I tend to think of the vegan vs. not vegan issues. We say the raw & vegan diet are healthy, etc. etc. but lots of people I talk to always say I like meat or something like that. So now faced with raw diet I am using the same arguments people use not to go vegan. I like the taste of cooked food, convenience, etc. etc. It is humorous, but has also helped me gain perspective.

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When I think of raw eating I tend to think of the vegan vs. not vegan issues. We say the raw & vegan diet are healthy, etc. etc. but lots of people I talk to always say I like meat or something like that. So now faced with raw diet I am using the same arguments people use not to go vegan. I like the taste of cooked food, convenience, etc. etc. It is humorous, but has also helped me gain perspective.

 

That's exactly right.....great point.

 

As I always say there'ssomany deep emotional attachments to food, we use it to surpress, escape and fix so many things/situations, it doesn't surprise me in the least that people get defensiveor fearful at he thought of giving it up!

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