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Martial Arts and Nationalism


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I didn't imply that you said black people are lazy...(what other words have I put in your mouth?!) I used lazy in Bill Cosby's example, but any generalization will do...Dr. Cosby has never made wide generalizations...he has condemned individuals within the community that are destroying the black community..ie hip hop artists that use the "n-word" and lyrics that are degrading to women...he never has said blacks as a whole are... (fill in the blank). I lived in Texas...the barrios were filthy...the "black part of town" was filthy...by your logic it is because "those people" are filthy...I don't have to have lived in Hawaii to see your grossly misguided logic! Two landlords told me point blank that they didn't like renting to blacks because they are "dirty"...your logic justifies that attitude...I know those men were biggots, and since you share the same logic, I guess I can assume you are a biggot...

So...ONLY native Hawaiians throw soda cans and wrappers on the ground?! Wow...that explains why the mainland USA is so clean and unpolluted! Or are all those wrappers and cans shipped over by native Hawaiians? Oh yea...its the Mexicans and blacks that pollute here...your ideological buddies told me that...

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Bill Cosby has not only said things about celebrities. I've seen him say things on PBS about how black parents need to clean up their acts and poor parenting is making their daughters pregnant, and sons don't take responsibility when they get them pregnant. Nobody is causing an uproar about what he's said about Rap music and things. Its what he says about how people raise their children.

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Bill Cosby has not only said things about celebrities. I've seen him say things on PBS about how black parents need to clean up their acts and poor parenting is making their daughters pregnant, and sons don't take responsibility when they get them pregnant. Nobody is causing an uproar about what he's said about Rap music and things. Its what he says about how people raise their children.

Yes..but he doesn't say...black people are bad parents...its subtle, but it is different...now if you had said.."native Hawaiians need to stop taking handouts and be more self-sufficient, get off the meth and take responsiblity for their lives and their neighborhoods"...I would applaud...but you said..."Hawaiians are lazy"....very different...he attacks the behaviour...you attacked the people...

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I did say that and I'll say it again even though not all but most seem to be.

 

These questions you asked me seem to have been answers from me in question form. A snide technique I've used before but mostly when I was a child.

 

Any other generalizations you'd like to make?

Are blacks "sneaky"?

Are Jews "greedy"?

Are Irish "drunkards"?

Are Arabs "blood thirsty"?

Please enlighten us with your observations so that the rest of us won't have to take the time to get to know these people as individuals....

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No I don't think that gives anyone credibility but the fact that he grew up in the inner city in Philly and has been seen as a role model for everyone for decades...also the fact that his show was really the first show made up of black actors/actresses that white America watched in mass. There were other shows that were popular amongst whites but they enforced stereotypes. The Cosby show didn't. If anyone can represent a group of people its him.

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Those were clearly questions...I mean if your going to make generalizations...I though you might have some other wisdom to share...

Yea, even as a child I knew it was wrong to make generalizations...its called biggotry...check out Dr. Cosby's short film from the 70s called "The Biggot" ...he discusses how its wrong to make generalizations about a whole race of people...

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I know those things are in me and it may be wrong but its still the case. .

In this quote you seem to acknowledge that you harbor negativity towards native Hawaiians, and recognize it as wrong...am I misinterpreting this? You seem to know it is wrong...and thats a start, I suppose...but I am just calling it as it is...you don't like native Hawaiians...fine...but don't disguise it as you trying to help them up...

If I am wrong correct me, but this statement along with your "Hawaiians are lazy" statement seem to say enough to me...

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Well I think he changed or misspoke because he's seems to be doing that now. Generalizations are but but sometimes things come up for a reason. Like its not OK to say CEOs are greedy scoundrels...is that wrong...sure most of them are but not all but I think its still OK to say that. Or that artists are broke. Not all are but like me 95% are close to it.

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No I don't think that gives anyone credibility but the fact that he grew up in the inner city in Philly and has been seen as a role model for everyone for decades...also the fact that his show was really the first show made up of black actors/actresses that white America watched in mass. There were other shows that were popular amongst whites but they enforced stereotypes. The Cosby show didn't. If anyone can represent a group of people its him.

Also...I study the Arapaho...it is hard for me to criticize certain aspects of their culture because I am an "outsider"...specifically the way they have abandoned many of their own traditions and culture in favor of "white" ways...This is a problem many have...we lack credibility...I didn't grow up on the Rez...I didn't have the gun in my face...I can't make those judgments...I can make certain "objective" judgements...but there is a line I must honor, and it is sometimes unclear...Dr. Cosby grew up black...in the inner city...he was there and experienced much of the same...that is credibility...even if I had grown up in his neighborhood, I still enjoyed certain priviledges as a white male...even if I was unaware...that is what I mean by credibility...

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Its OK to criticize as an outsider if you are reasonable about it. And maybe you aren't seen as having credibility growing up on the city speaking about another race but you should be seen with having some. Especially since if thats that case you know more about it than privileged blacks.

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I try not to say all capitalists are pigs...and I have gotten out of the habit of class generalizations...but please answer my previous question...did you not say-

"I know those things are in me and it may be wrong but its still the case."

"Those things" are presumed to be prejudices against native Hawaiians...at least thats how I read it...am I right? Please feel free to look back at the context...if you don't like Hawaiians...fine...but I like to know who I'm dealing with...I may have you wrong...

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Its OK to criticize as an outsider if you are reasonable about it. And maybe you aren't seen as having credibility growing up on the city speaking about another race but you should be seen with having some. Especially since if thats that case you know more about it than privileged blacks.

 

Dr. Cosby is a pretty "priviledged black"...you may recall he owned NBC for a while...he didn't put that on lay away...

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No you are right on. Its a prejudice I have. Sometimes prejudices are warranted even if its cruel to do that. Its like saying pro sprinters are all on drugs. Most are...not all and its mean to those who aren't but the few that are clean say the same thing(however they may be saying that to cover their own butts). Justin Gatlin was very outspoken(olympic medalist) then got caught and suspended.

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Okay...just so we are all clear...you are prejudiced against native Hawaiians...we can still talk, but now I know not to take you too seriously when discussing Hawaii or native Hawaiians...I'm kinda prejudice towards biggots, I think you can understand...

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I can understand...but just to let you know I'd be accepted as a local even now. They aren't all bad. I can generalize and say I think most people are cruel because they eat meat. But at the same time I trust them enough to be friends. I don't hate Hawaiians. This is an aspect of the present culture thats flawed. Just like republicans. I have lots of friends that are republicans. Hell my family is friends with the multi billion dollar Marcos family. He treated us well even though he's killed thousands of Filipinos.

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Perhaps bigot is too harsh...I tend to associate prejudice and bigotry...and thats not necessarily fair...but let me say this...

Blacks are mostly criminals...they can't be trusted...don't pick them up in a cab...follow them in your stores or they will steal...if they date your daughter they will get her pregnant and leave her...those are racist, prejudiced statements...though the facts show there are more blacks in prison than whites...and consider that blacks are a minority...and look at the pregnancy statistics...so it all appears to be true...but we all know that its BS...there are many other reasons why the prison population is predominately black, preganancy rates,etc...ie racism!

For your own good, squash those feelings...it starts out small and grows...I've seen good friends and family members turn into full blown bigots...and it all started with logic like yours...

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I've felt this way for a long time and its not going anywhere. I won't lighten my view about these aspects of people because its a problem. After all...why do you not eat meat??? I don't eat meat because its cruel. People that eat meat do something thats cruel even though everything they do isn't cruel. I'm not going to squash that feeling so it doesn't grow. I just have to realize that this is a cruel part of people. We all do things that are cruel. I try my best but I don't recycle everything I possibly can, I don't always buy organic food. Thats cruel and they are things I shouldn't be doing.

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Despite the long path...I think this was constructive...I've learned more about the Hawaiian sovereignty movement (I did some research) and I think you may have been forced to deal with some of you prejudices...however you choose to do so...

so...how about BJ Penn's ideas about Hawaiian sovereignty?

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Actually the only thing I know about Penn is that he's a great fighter and that he's for Hawaiian Sovereignty, I don't know what that entails for him. I don't really pay attention to MMA either even though I love watching it. Maybe I'll take a look when I get back from my bike race tonight to see what he thinks.

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It's a similar situation in Samoa, American Samoa is an American territory and the native population receives reimbursement from the United States government for having a former naval base there. They have local laws that almost puts them at the sate level but they have no representation in congress, senate, etc.

 

One thing that you will notice as well in Samoa is a dependence on the american income causing people to become for all words and purposes lazy.

 

Even though they don't like white people or (Pelangi's) they would never want to lose there American territory status. So there is no real independence's movement in American Samoa.

 

There is a noticeable difference between an island that is only 50 miles away which is Western Samoa (my mom's birthplace) which is it's own independent nation much more poor but a noticeable difference in mentality from American Samoans.

 

Anyways I used to live in Hawaii with my family and Hawaiians hated us. Although Samoans and native Hawaiians are very much involved with crime in Hawaii it has to do with the social and cultural circumstances rather then anything about blood and race.

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My understanding is that Samoa is in a severe state of dependency...the only "natural resource" they have is tourism...the US ships food and other supplies every month...of course when the US took Samoa it was needed as a fueling station...a stepping stone...to the Asian markets...now that we don't need it for that purpose they are in a state of limbo...a victim of out dated US imperialism...and as you said, it is due to complicated economic and political circumstances...no simple explanation or solution...

I guess its only natural that a discussion that started about nationalism will take a turn towards imperialism and its consequences...extreme nationalism almost always stems from colonization/imperialism. Any body know anything about Puerto Rico? I'm sure it's a similar story...

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Yeah Samoa is in a sad state but I'm guessing they would be if we never went there. Unless of course they were separated from the rest of the world and never thought of progress and growth...in that case they would have prospered the way they had been but simply wanting more but not having any outside help may have put them in a worse situation. I just look at the Philippines. They're in a sad state too but the US has close ties to them and gives them tons of money. If they stopped which would by no means be wrong since the US didn't really ever steal from them so they don't owe them anything the Philippines would fall to pieces. If anything the Philippines owes the US for saving them from the Japanese(I know I wouldn't be here otherwise since my grandfather was rescued by US soldiers) but the US doesn't really get much specifically other than cheap labor but the Philippines is by no means the main source for that.

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Uh...we stole the whole damn island...we give them tons of money because Samoa is US property...called a territory...but they have limited rights of citizenship...they can join the US military, but can't have a representative in Congress...and by "saving" the Philipines (and Samoa and Guam and Puerto Rico and Wake Island and numerous others), I think you really mean we stole it from the previous thieves...Japan was the imperial bully of the Pacific...(and Spain was a dwindling power) we both were the same monster...of course, we taught the Japanese how to be imperialists and they were VERY adept students...the Meiji Restoration took place after we forced Japan to open its markets to the west in the 1850s-by 1900 they built their armed forces, trained them i US military academies and were challenging China and Russia! Japan was the quintessential 90 lbs weakling getting sand kicked in his face, buying the Weider Set, then kickin' ass and stealing the babes himself! Thats why in Chinese/Hong Kong martial art films they are portrayed as complete bastards...So keep that in mind...Samoa aren't our "buddies"- they are our property...we just don't know what to do with them...

Incidently...ever wonder why the fuck we have Guantanamo Bay in Cuba?! Is it cause Cubans are our best buds? Hell NO! We took that piece of Cuba in this same period when we had (real) imperial interests...wonder why we didn't just make it a state? Some wanted to, but in this case American racism prevented taking the whole thing over- we didn't want the Latin-American/ African blood contaminating US blood...though the South did previously consider taking it if they won the Civil War...they wanted to use it as a "retirement island" for old and disabled slaves, they also considered Mexico as a corridor into Central America for the same purpose...they didn't want those "lazy coloreds" hangin' out in the (North American) South...

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