Jump to content

Martial Arts and Nationalism


Recommended Posts

I just look at the Philippines. They're in a sad state too but the US has close ties to them and gives them tons of money. If they stopped which would by no means be wrong since the US didn't really ever steal from them so they don't owe them anything the Philippines would fall to pieces. If anything the Philippines owes the US for saving them from the Japanese(.

 

I was a bit confused...I thought you were talking about Samoa...but you're even more wrong about the Philippines...we stole the whole island...it was taken and controlled by the Spanish...when we went to war against Spain, Teddy Roosevelt-then Asst. Sec. of the Navy- exceeded his authority and ordered Com. Dewey to take the islands ( the war was actually to "liberate" Cuba and get revenge for the sinking of the Maine-which incidently was like WMDs cause we now know it was fabricated, actually the boiler blew, it WAS NOT bombed- anyways...we said we would liberate the Philippines too-they were quite pleased, we even gave a lift to an exiled Filipino rebel leader who led insurgencies against the Spanish, a guy named Emilio Aquinaldo, then when we got their we said "Psyche! We're gonna stay a while"...Aquinaldo ended up leading the Filipino insurgency against the US...between 500,000 and 2 million Filipinos died in that war! We didn't really care how many we killed, so we didn't keep track...the Filipino War is one of the most overlooked US wars of all time...we "rescued" them from the Japanese because they stole them from US after we stole them from Spain!

So, we do kinda owe 'em...yeah we saved them from the Spanish, but then we turned into the new "slave master" instead of liberator...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 65
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I should add...you can probably beat me in sit ups, push ups, maybe even in constructing a fine vase for flowers, but I study US History for a living...yeah, I even get paid for it...you're not gonna win this debate...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A bit of clarification...we were pretty generous in the peace treaty with Spain...as a peace settlement we paid them (Spain) $20 million for Guam, Puerto Rico and the Philippines... so by all definitions they were/are US property...we hold the receipt...notice we gave the money to Spain, not to the people of the islands...we respected the conquering Spaniard's rights, but not the rights of the conquered people...

A speech by Sen. Albert Beveridge...(From Howard Zinn's "People's History...")...

Jan 9th, 1900 on the floor of Senate...

"Mr. President, the times call for candor. The Philippines are ours forever. And just beyond the Philippines are China's illimitable markets. We will not retreat from either...We will not renounce our part in the mission of our race, trustee, under God, of the civilization of the world...The Pacific is OUR ocean..Where shall we turn for consumers of our surplus? Geography answers the question. China is our natural customer...The Philippines give us a base at the door of all the East...No land in America surpasses in the fertility the plains and valleys of Luzon. Rice and coffee, sugar and coconuts, hemp and tobacco...the wood of the Philippines can supply the furniture of the world for a century to come...My own belief is that there are not 100 men among them who comprehend what Anglo-Saxon self-government means, and there are over 5,000,000 people to be governed. It has been charged that our conduct of the war has been cruel. SEnators, it has been in the reverse...Senators must we remember that we are not dealing with Americans or Europeans. We are dealing with Orientals."(People's History, 306)

One soldier in the Filipino War wrote home saying..."Our fighting blood was up, and we wanted to kill niggers...this shooting human beings beats rabbit hunting all to pieces." (People's History, 307) (Filipinos were considered"niggers")

...nice...yeah, we don't owe them...they owe us...I'm sure Sen. Beveridge would agree 110%!

Did I mention my Undergrad thesis was on US Racism and Imperialism in Latin America?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if you went to the Philippines and talked to people you'd see things differently. 80% of them even approve of President Bush which is ludicrous but its just goes to show how much respect they have for the US. Sure the Philippines isn't the most free country in the world but they aren't kept from protesting and things like that however its very rare to see an anti US protest in the Philippines. They actually want more US troops there and they never wanted them to leave in the first place. Get paid all you want but that doesn't mean you can speak in place of Filipinos who for the most part want US involvement in their lives. By the way Gloria Arroyo's family is married into my family. We also have ties to Estrada and Marcos so I'm familiar with certain things you may not be.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think if you went to the Philippines and talked to people you'd see things differently. 80% of them even approve of President Bush which is ludicrous but its just goes to show how much respect they have for the US. Sure the Philippines isn't the most free country in the world but they aren't kept from protesting and things like that however its very rare to see an anti US protest in the Philippines. They actually want more US troops there and they never wanted them to leave in the first place. Get paid all you want but that doesn't mean you can speak in place of Filipinos who for the most part want US involvement in their lives. By the way Gloria Arroyo's family is married into my family. We also have ties to Estrada and Marcos so I'm familiar with certain things you may not be.

 

I would suggest that YOUR friends like the US military presence...In the Marcos case- the US was the only thing keeping them from getting their throats slit by their own people...the Arroyo family also enjoys the US military keeping the peace so ex-Marcos supporters aren't strung up...also if you are "friends/married into those families" it suggests you are in with the elites...they enjoy the stability the US presence now offers...not to mention the jobs...lots of jobs...when bases go so do tons of job...from AAFES workers (American Armed Force Exchange Service) to contractors to prostitutes...sames true in the US-look at Clovis,NM for example...Now you are putting words in my mouth-I would never suggest that EVERYONE wants the US out...but I would bet the majority of the people at least would like the US gone but have fears about what would happen in their absence...

A good example is a discussion I had with my former boss when I worked for CFS in the refugee program...I asked what she thought of the war in Iraq...she said everyone she knew was glad about the invasion and hoped the US stayed and NEVER leaves...of course she was a Kurd,I didn't argue with her...I can understand her point of view...but I would never say that based on her opinion all Iraqis wanted us to stay...

And I too have Filipino family members...they like the US, of course they were born in the US so they have no idea about sentiment back in the Philippines...

Another case in point...when I lived in Germany all the Germans on base LOVED Americans...at one point EVERY German I knew loved Americans-but as I met Germans outside of the base, and who weren't making a living from US dollars, I saw a change in attitudes...many still liked Americans, but hated our government and wanted US bases out, even if they were concerned about their economy.

I know its complex, but back to my point..you were very wrong in your assertion that the US was a welcomed liberator to the Filipino people, they were not and 500,000-2,000,000 dead Filipinos are proof of that...

Believe me, I have to deal with this love/hate issue in my Native American studies...there are those who proudly wave the US flag with their tribal flags, seemingly forgeting that the same US flag flew over Wounded Knee, the Washita River and numerous other Indian massacres. It drives me crazy...but that's the line I have to honor as far as my opinion goes in those matters...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm curious about any deutschlanders opinion on this matter- at least concerning Germany...how did you feel about the US presence during the Cold War as opposed to now? Is it different?

I remember telling my German friends that if it wasn't for us, they'd be speaking Russian...my friend looked at me and said, "What difference does it make? Today we speak English!!"-that opened my eyes! and changed my "arrogant American attitude"...ALOT...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think my assumptions about YOUR friends liking Americans more than the typical Filipino may be correct...the US State Department doesn't share your rosey view of US-Philippine relations...heres a bit of what they say...though it is a bit dated, it's alll they have , which suggests it may be worse, especially with the rise of Islam there...but here's what they say about Filipino attitudes...(the US State Dept)

 

Philippines

Filipino Nationalism

Filipino nationalism, which is an important element of foreign policy, showed every sign of intensifying in the early 1990s. Diverse elements in Philippine society have been united in opposition to their common history of foreign subjugation, and this opposition often carried an anti-American undertone.

Leftists have long held that Philippine history is a story of failed or betrayed revolutions, with native compradors selling out to foreign invaders. In the post-Marcos years, this thesis received wide acceptance across the political spectrum. The middle class was deeply disillusioned because five successive United States administrations had acquiesced to Marcos's dictatorship, and Filipino conservatives nursed grievances long held by the left.

Extension of United States base rights became a pivotal issue in Manila politics. The need for some sort of military alliance with the United States was rarely questioned, but the physical presence of the bases has irritated nationalists beyond endurance. The socially deformed communities outside their gates were seen as a national disgrace. Angeles City (near Clark) and Olongapo City (near Subic) had innumerable bars and thousands of prostitutes, which caused Filipinos to be concerned about acquired immune deficiency syndrome (AIDS; see Health and Living Standards , ch. 2). There were numerous criminal gangs and smugglers and criminal jurisdiction was a perennial problem.

The nuclear issue complicated matters. Article 2 of the Constitution says that the Philippines, "consistent with national interest, adopts and pursues a policy of freedom from nuclear weapons in its territory." Interpreted strictly, this article challenged the United States policy of never confirming or denying the presence of nuclear weapons at any specific location. Aquino finessed the issue, apparently determining that it was in the national interest not to do anything to make the United States leave the bases. But the Philippine Senate in June 1988 passed by a vote of nineteen to three a bill that would have banned from the Philippines the "development, manufacture, acquisition, testing, use, introduction, installation, or storage" of nuclear weapons. The bill was defeated in the House, but its margin of passage in the Senate indicated potential difficulty in obtaining the votes of the two-thirds of the Senate required to ratify any future base agreement.

Despite negative developments in Philippine-United States relations, congruent interests in the early 1990s bound the two countries. United States foreign aid to the Philippines in 1990 reached nearly US$500 million; United States private investment stood at more than US$1 billion; and the United States and Japan were key donors to the Multilateral Aid Initiative, also known as the Philippine Assistance Plan, which offered some debt relief and new credit in return for desired structural reforms (see Development Assistance , ch. 3). Political activity in FilipinoAmerican communities in the United States added another dimension to Philippine-United States relations. Early maneuvering for the 1992 Philippine presidential election was as feverish among these communities on the United States west coast as it was in Manila.

 

 

From US State Dept. web site

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More from the State Department...this is more recent, some helps your cause, but the fact that the Filipinos voted to remove all bases and for full US withdrawal by 1992, hurts your case...they did not want US bases...but I will grant you this is from the State Dept and some of their fact are skewed, like an assertion they make that only tens of thousands of Filipinos died in the US WAr for the Philippines...I'll stick with my figures which have been given by numerous historians and are backed by battle reports and other data (describing the eradication of whole villages)...

 

Again from the State DEpt...

In September 1991, the Philippine Senate rejected the bases treaty, and despite further efforts to salvage the situation, the two sides could not reach an agreement. As a result, the Philippine Government informed the U.S. on December 6, 1991, that it would have one year to complete withdrawal. That withdrawal went smoothly and was completed ahead of schedule, with the last U.S. forces departing on November 24, 1992. On departure, the U.S. Government turned over assets worth more than $1.3 billion to the Philippines, including an airport and ship-repair facility. Agencies formed by the Philippine Government have converted the former military bases for civilian commercial use, with Subic Bay serving as a flagship for that effort.

 

The post-U.S. bases era has seen U.S.-Philippine relations improved and broadened, with a prominent focus on economic and commercial ties while maintaining the importance of the security dimension. U.S. investment continues to play an important role in the Philippine economy, while a strong security relationship rests on the 1952 U.S.-Philippines Mutual Defense Treaty (MDT). In February 1998, U.S. and Philippine negotiators concluded the Visiting Forces Agreement (VFA), paving the way for increased military cooperation under the MDT. The agreement was approved by the Philippine Senate in May 1999 and entered into force on June 1, 1999. Under the VFA, the U.S. has conducted ship visits to Philippine ports and has resumed large combined military exercises with Philippine forces. Key events in the bilateral relationship include the July 4, 1996 declaration by President Ramos of Philippine-American Friendship Day in commemoration of the 50th anniversary of Philippine independence. Ramos visited the U.S. in April 1998, and then-President Estrada visited in July 2000. President Arroyo met with President Bush in an official working visit in November 2001 and made a state visit in Washington on May 19, 2003. President Bush made a state visit to the Philippines on October 18, 2003, during which he addressed a joint session of the Philippine Congress--the first American President to do so since Dwight D. Eisenhower. There are regular U.S. cabinet-level and congressional visits to the Philippines as well.

 

President Arroyo has repeatedly stressed the close friendship between the Philippines and the U.S. and her desire to expand bilateral ties further. Both governments seek to revitalize and strengthen their partnership by working toward greater security, prosperity, and service to Filipinos and Americans alike. Inaugurated into office on the same day as President Bush, President Arroyo lent strong support to the global war on terrorism. In October 2003, the U.S. designated the Philippines as a Major Non-NATO Ally. That same month, the Philippines joined the select group of countries to have ratified all 12 UN counterterrorism conventions.

 

The annual Balikatan (Shoulder-to-Shoulder) bilateral military exercises contribute directly to the Philippine armed forces' efforts to root out Abu Sayyaf and Jemaah Islamiyah terrorists and bring development to formerly terrorist-plagued areas, notably Basilan and Jolo. They include not only combined military training but also civil-military affairs and humanitarian projects. The International Military Education and Training (IMET) program is the largest in the Pacific and the third-largest in the world, and a Mutual Logistics Support Agreement (MLSA) was signed in November 2002. Similarly, law enforcement cooperation has reached new levels: U.S. and Philippine agencies have cooperated to bring charges against numerous terrorists, to implement the countries' extradition treaty, and to train thousands of Filipino law enforcement officers. There is a Senior Law Enforcement Advisor helping the Philippine National Police with its Transformation Program.

 

The U.S. is also working closely with the Philippines to reduce poverty and increase prosperity. The U.S. fully supports Philippine efforts to root out corruption, to open economic opportunity, and to invest in health and education. USAID programs support the 'Philippines' war on poverty as well as the government's reform agenda in critical areas, including anti-money laundering, rule of law, tax collection, and trade and investment. Other USAID programs have bolstered the government's efforts to heal divisions in Philippine society through a focus on conflict resolution, livelihood enhancement for former combatants, and economic development in Mindanao and the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao, among the poorest areas in the country. Meanwhile, important programs continue in modern family planning, infectious disease control, environmental protection, rural electrification, and provision of basic services--as well as PL 480 food aid programs and others, which together totaled $211.3 million. In 2006, the Millennium Challenge Corporation granted $21 million to the Philippines for a threshold program addressing corruption in revenue administration.

 

Nearly 400,000 Americans visit the Philippines each year. Providing government services to U.S. and other 'citizens, therefore, constitutes an important aspect of the bilateral relationship. Those services include veterans' affairs, social security, and consular operations. Benefits to Filipinos from the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs and the Social Security Administration totaled $297,389,415 in 2006. Many people-to-people programs exist between the U.S. and the Philippines, including Fulbright, International Visitors, and Aquino Fellowship exchange programs, as well as the U.S. Peace Corps.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm not saying they don't have a pathetic military. I have an uncle(in law) who is the general of transportation and he has 2 of his own hummers because he said he wrecked them. They didn't question it and he got them painted...so now they are his. They are corrupt and weak which is why they need so much help. They've always been weak which is why they've been taken over so many times. Hell...the military has only 1 plane with a jet engine, and a few tanks the US left for them during Vietnam. What do you expect. They should have never went in the first place(same as the US). Not that the US doesn't have the power but the Philippines couldn't help if they wanted to help. The Islamic Militants in the south have total control...even with the money the US provides for aid. As for voting in the Philippines its all screwed up and you can't really trust it. People forced the corrupt President Estrada out but the majority of the poor still loved him(despite the fact that he stole money from them...he treated them better than Macapagal does). And the majority of the Philippines still likes Estrada more than Macapagal. However she's gonna stay there due to problems in the voting system.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I cross train in Escrima, which is filipino stick/knife fighting art (but also open hand, and joint locking).

 

On a side note it's interesting how imperialism and colonization has taken a lot of influence from the occupying cultures (Spanish and American) with the Filipino martial arts. Before Spanish colonization Filipino arts centered around a lot of knife and blade fighting involved with a lot of tribal warfare. Spanish influence brought ideas of fencing and fencing stances into the picture but on a negative note the Spanish eventually outlawed Filipino martial arts as it was a possible threat, by outlawing blades for use with fighting and the formal training of Filipino martial arts. This is what started the focus on rattan or sticks for fighting as they were not outlawed as blades were. With the American occupation various elements of western boxing were implemented into the art as well.

 

It really is an interesting system that highlights Filipino fighting mentality, there is little in the way of blocks and it is very aggressive with attacks. Block and checks usually come in only when performing an attack. It's really very brutal.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I actually love seeing people do this but your right. Its very rare and its one of the least popular martial arts to do in the Philippines right now. Muay Thai and Judo seem to be the most popular followed by kung fu and karate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Out of curiosity...does anyone have any idea what is the oldest martial art style? So many are transplants...BJJ is a great example...I hear lots of controversy over the origins of many Okinawa styles...Chinese vs. Korean and so on...

I imagine the very first martial art was when some hominid figured ..."Hey, I can make a fist and hit others with it...and they'll give me their food!"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is a dying style from India the the British outlawed. I forgot what its called but it seems to be the oldest thats still around. I can imagine there are some that are over a thousand years older though that have just disappeared completely.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Pankration might be the oldest known that is still practiced today - it was introduced to the Olympic games in 648 BC. It may have found its way into India by Alexander the Great and evolved into Kalarripayat. As this Indian martial art spread throughout Asia, spread along with Buddhism, it evolved into martial arts like Tai Chi Chuan and Shaolin Wushu. From China, martial arts spread to Japan and became Karate etc. Perhaps a lot of this is open to conjecture.

 

I have read somewhere that ancient Greek pankrase fighters ate vegetarian diets while training. I couldn't find the source of that though. I don't know about early African martial arts. Isn't Capoiera partially derived from an older art from the Ivory Coast area?

 

Who knows what the oldest is though? Did the ancient Egyptians have one? The Phoenicians? The oldest Polynesians? The Australian Aborigines? Neanderthals? I bet Neanderthals were bad ass wrestlers!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heard about the Egyptian system it was called Sebekah and it was recorded during the time of the various pharaohs (cant place it exactly) but it's definitely BC.

 

And like Trev said I know that Chinese Kung-fu and Shaolin especially was derived from Bodi Dharma coming from India and teaching the monks there various Indian martial arts and meditation derived from Yoga.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share




×
×
  • Create New...