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Soy and testosterone


Bockman
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Hey

I'm kinda new (or rather newly returned) to vegetarian diet, and I was wondering about soy. I've heard that soy lowerers testosterone - and that doesn't sound cool considering that I want to add some muscles to my skeleton-frame.

 

Anyone here on the forum that knows anything about this?

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this might be what you were thinking about http://tinyurl.com/2fbzyv

 

that links to a thread here about phytoestrogens in soy.

 

from what i've read, the estrogen like compounds in soy, actually compete with real endogenous estrogen for the receptor sites in your body, so really, soy decreases the activity of estrogen in your body, doing nothing to testosterone.

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I can only base my beliefs on what I have read and on my own experience. I am aged 55. I have had about a pint of soya milk every day for the past 20-odd years. My libido is high. I have good muscle mass and strength - at least as much as I had in my 20s. Much more than the 'average' man. I am losing the hair on the top of my head - a sign of a type of testosterone activity. My bladder seems to be able to hold prodigious amounts of liquid - so there are no prostate troubles there. From all this I conclude that I have no problems with lack of testosterone or any damage done by soya.

 

If you are really concerned and you believe that soya might be detrimental to your progress, don't eat it. It is easy to avoid if you don't rely on convenience or packet food. There are lots of beans, peas, nuts, seeds and other grains that you can eat. As well as all the veggies and fruits. But, all these contain phytoestrogens. Not all the same as found in soya, but still phytoestrogens. You just can't get away from them. Not even if you hide in a darkened room. They will seek you out. There is no escape.

 

I rarely consume any other soya products, unless there is some in the bread I eat. Chinese and Japanese men have no lack or testosterone or fertility and many of them eat soya products. Mainly, though, they don't eat 'soya meats' or soya ice cream. If you stick to the types of soya that they eat you will be all right. As, I said, I have quite a bit of soya milk a day but I have recently learnt that the production of commercial soya milk leaves a lot to be desired. I think I might have to start making my own, to ensure that it is as healthy as possible.

 

A lot of scare stories have been written about soya. There are powerful vested interests that fear the rise of soya consumption and the spread of compassionate diets. To be fair, I must add that the soya industry is also powerful, but most of it is involved in producing soya as animal feed. Soya was said to pose a risk of thyroid danger to babies. But this only occurred in babies who had low levels of iodine. Not in babies with adequte levels. It is said to pose a risk in the case of hormonal cancers, such as those of the breast and prostate. This is due, it is said, to the presence of phytoestrogens in soya. The human body produces its own estrogens in the form of estradiol. Both men and women produce it. The phytoestrogens are a very weak form and it is thought that they can block the receptors that would normally be affected by the body's own hormone - reducing the risk of these hormone-related cancers. However, if someone is prone to, or is suffering from hormone-related cancers, it would be better to err on the safe side. Scientists can get things wrong.

 

Don't believe any research done in non-humans. As well as not being human and not reacting like humans, they are often fed enormous amounts or isolated components of whatever substance is being tested. Rely only on research done in humans using the substances as they would be used in real life.

 

 

This is from the Wellness Letter of the University of California, Berkely:

 

Is It True What They Say About Soy?

 

Soybeans and their products, such as tofu (soybean curd) and soy milk, enjoy a reputation as very healthy foods, and they have risen in popularity in this country. Certain soy foods have earned the right to be labeled "heart-healthy." Yet not everybody is on board, judging by a recent spate of queries from our readers. "I won't allow soy in the house," one writes. Others ask if soy can fuel breast cancer, cause thyroid disease, or promote Alzheimer's. One unnerving report suggested that soy milk damages infant immune systems. A lot of people these days are afraid of soy.

 

Soybeans contain a complex mix of phytochemicals, including isoflavones. Some of these may act as estrogens or as anti-estrogens (the latter may block the effects of estrogens in the human body). Soy isoflavones may also act as antioxidants and have other beneficial effects on blood vessels and the heart. There's still a lot to learn about soy.

 

Soy and isoflavone supplements are in another category entirely. Since they concentrate the hormone-like substances in soy, they may well have a downside. Moreover, you have no guarantee as to what's in the supplements, and too little is known about them. We hope you will cross them off your list.

 

But what about soy foods? First, here are the potential problems and the conclusions so far:

 

Breast cancer: The high intake of soy foods in Asian countries has long been credited, at least by some researchers, for the lower rate of breast cancer among Asian women, compared with women in countries where little soy is consumed. But some confusion arises when you look at genistein, the main soy isoflavone and a plant estrogen. Does it protect against breast cancer or, on the other hand, promote the growth of existing cancer cells? Some studies have suggested the latter. Researchers at the Mayo Clinic recently reviewed all the evidence and concluded that soy has not been shown to fuel breast cancer cells. "If breast cancer patients enjoy soy products," they concluded, "it seems reason-able for them to continue to use them." Whether soy actually protects against breast cancer is still unknown.

 

Soy milk and infants: A study published last year in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that the highly concentrated phytoestrogens in soy formula might weaken the immune systems of babies. The formulas have more of these compounds than soy foods do. But researchers emphasized that this risk is largely theoretical. There's no evidence that soy formula is unsafe, or that infants drinking it have been harmed. Breast milk is still the first choice, however, followed by milk-based formulas. Only infants allergic to milk should drink soy formula.

 

Thyroid disease: One study suggested that soy protein supplements can interfere with the absorption of thyroid medications. Other research tentatively showed that soy foods may actually interfere with normal thyroid function, perhaps leading to goiter (swelling of the thyroid gland, located in the neck). But there's no risk of goiter in healthy people consuming soy who are not deficient in iodine. Strict vegetarians, who eat no iodine-rich fish or dairy products, might be at risk—and eating lots of soy might boost the risk. The answer is not to give up soy, but to increase iodine intake. One way is to use a small amount of iodized salt. And vary your diet as much as possible.

 

Alzheimer's disease: As we reported two years ago, a study of middle-aged Japanese-American men showed that those who ate at least two servings of tofu a week had a faster decline in mental ability as they aged and were more prone to Alzheimer's than men who ate no tofu. But this study raised more questions than it answered. No such effects have been seen in Japan, where life expectancy is high and tofu is a staple of the diet. Indeed, soy foods may actually protect the brain. The findings of this study are questionable and should not lead you to avoid tofu or other soy foods.

 

Kidney stones: If you've ever had calcium-oxalate kidney stones, the most common type, you should limit your intake of soy. Many soy foods are rich in oxalates and thus may promote the formation of such stones in those at risk, according to a study last year.

 

Now, a look at the positive side of soy foods. Not much is certain, but the outlook is promising:

 

Heart disease: Many researchers believe that the high intake of soy in Asian countries helps explain the lower incidence of heart disease there, and the FDA has okayed a "heart-healthy" claim for soy foods. Those that contain at least 6.25 grams (about one-quarter of an ounce) of soy protein per serving can claim on the label to reduce the risk of heart disease, when consumed as part of a healthy diet. Soy helps lower high blood cholesterol and may work in other ways to benefit blood vessels and the heart. So far, of all the potential health benefits of soy, this one has the most solid evidence.

 

 

Prostate cancer: In countries where soy is a dietary staple, men are less likely to develop prostate cancer. In animal studies, soy has slowed the growth of this cancer. This anti-cancer effect is still only hypothetical; more research is needed.

 

 

Menopausal symptoms: Soy supplements (capsules or pills) containing high levels of isoflavones, as well as soy foods with lower levels, have been promoted as effective remedies for menopausal symptoms such as hot flashes, irregular sleep patterns, and vaginal dryness. But no one knows how effective these plant hormones are—the evidence is contradictory—or whether they are safe. If isoflavone supplements act like hormones, they could pose some of the same dangers. Soy foods, on the other hand, may not have enough plant hormones to combat menopausal symptoms, but at least they aren't harmful. It can't hurt to try them, as part of a healthy diet.

 

Osteoporosis: According to research in Japan, women who consume a lot of soy tend to have greater bone mass. Japanese women also have a lower rate of hip fractures than American women, but that might be because of genetics or other factors. So far, there's reason to think that consuming soy is beneficial to bones, but long-term studies are still needed.

 

Keep in mind: Soy foods are well worth adding to your diet, since they may reduce the risk of heart disease. Other possible health benefits—not so well established—include protection against breast and prostate cancer and osteoporosis. Soy is not magical; it cannot fix up a poor diet. On the other hand, there is no convincing evidence that soy foods are harmful. People have been eating them for millennia, particularly in Asia. Remember that not all soy products are created equal—soy sauce, for instance, contains no soy protein. Even soy foods with a heart-healthy label may be high in salt, sugar, and calories. Be sure to read the labels.

 

UC Berkeley Wellness Letter, November 2002

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OOPS! HOW DID THAT HAPPEN. WOULD SOME KIND MURDERATOR PLEASE REMOVE THIS DUPLICATED POST? UNLESS YOU THINK IT IS SO GOOD THAT IT SHOULD STAY.

 

 

 

I can only base my beliefs on what I have read and on my own experience. I am aged 55. I have had about a pint of soya milk every day for the past 20-odd years. My libido is high. I have good muscle mass and strength - at least as much as I had in my 20s. Much more than the 'average' man. I am losing the hair on the top of my head - a sign of a type of testosterone activity. My bladder seems to be able to hold prodigious amounts of liquid - so there are no prostate troubles there. From all this I conclude that I have no problems with lack of testosterone or any damage done by soya.

 

If you are really concerned and you believe that soya might be detrimental to your progress, don't eat it. It is easy to avoid if you don't rely on convenience or packet food. There are lots of beans, peas, nuts, seeds and other grains that you can eat. As well as all the veggies and fruits. But, all these contain phytoestrogens. Not all the same as found in soya, but still phytoestrogens. You just can't get away from them. Not even if you hide in a darkened room. They will seek you out. There is no escape.

 

I rarely consume any other soya products, unless there is some in the bread I eat. Chinese and Japanese men have no lack or testosterone or fertility and many of them eat soya products. Mainly, though, they don't eat 'soya meats' or soya ice cream. If you stick to the types of soya that they eat you will be all right. As, I said, I have quite a bit of soya milk a day but I have recently learnt that the production of commercial soya milk leaves a lot to be desired. I think I might have to start making my own, to ensure that it is as healthy as possible.

 

A lot of scare stories have been written about soya. There are powerful vested interests that fear the rise of soya consumption and the spread of compassionate diets. To be fair, I must add that the soya industry is also powerful, but most of it is involved in producing soya as animal feed. Soya was said to pose a risk of thyroid danger to babies. But this only occurred in babies who had low levels of iodine. Not in babies with adequte levels. It is said to pose a risk in the case of hormonal cancers, such as those of the breast and prostate. This is due, it is said, to the presence of phytoestrogens in soya. The human body produces its own estrogens in the form of estradiol. Both men and women produce it. The phytoestrogens are a very weak form and it is thought that they can block the receptors that would normally be affected by the body's own hormone - reducing the risk of these hormone-related cancers. However, if someone is prone to, or is suffering from hormone-related cancers, it would be better to err on the safe side. Scientists can get things wrong.

 

Don't believe any research done in non-humans. As well as not being human and not reacting like humans, they are often fed enormous amounts or isolated components of whatever substance is being tested. Rely only on research done in humans using the substances as they would be used in real life.

 

 

This is from the Wellness Letter of the University of California, Berkely:

 

Is It True What They Say About Soy?

 

Soybeans and their products, such as tofu (soybean curd) and soy milk, enjoy a reputation as very healthy foods, and they have risen in popularity in this country. Certain soy foods have earned the right to be labeled "heart-healthy." Yet not everybody is on board, judging by a recent spate of queries from our readers. "I won't allow soy in the house," one writes. Others ask if soy can fuel breast cancer, cause thyroid disease, or promote Alzheimer's. One unnerving report suggested that soy milk damages infant immune systems. A lot of people these days are afraid of soy.

 

Soybeans contain a complex mix of phytochemicals, including isoflavones. Some of these may act as estrogens or as anti-estrogens (the latter may block the effects of estrogens in the human body). Soy isoflavones may also act as antioxidants and have other beneficial effects on blood vessels and the heart. There's still a lot to learn about soy.

 

Soy and isoflavone supplements are in another category entirely. Since they concentrate the hormone-like substances in soy, they may well have a downside. Moreover, you have no guarantee as to what's in the supplements, and too little is known about them. We hope you will cross them off your list.

 

But what about soy foods? First, here are the potential problems and the conclusions so far:

 

Breast cancer: The high intake of soy foods in Asian countries has long been credited, at least by some researchers, for the lower rate of breast cancer among Asian women, compared with women in countries where little soy is consumed. But some confusion arises when you look at genistein, the main soy isoflavone and a plant estrogen. Does it protect against breast cancer or, on the other hand, promote the growth of existing cancer cells? Some studies have suggested the latter. Researchers at the Mayo Clinic recently reviewed all the evidence and concluded that soy has not been shown to fuel breast cancer cells. "If breast cancer patients enjoy soy products," they concluded, "it seems reason-able for them to continue to use them." Whether soy actually protects against breast cancer is still unknown.

 

Soy milk and infants: A study published last year in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences found that the highly concentrated phytoestrogens in soy formula might weaken the immune systems of babies. The formulas have more of these compounds than soy foods do. But researchers emphasized that this risk is largely theoretical. There's no evidence that soy formula is unsafe, or that infants drinking it have been harmed. Breast milk is still the first choice, however, followed by milk-based formulas. Only infants allergic to milk should drink soy formula.

 

Thyroid disease: One study suggested that soy protein supplements can interfere with the absorption of thyroid medications. Other research tentatively showed that soy foods may actually interfere with normal thyroid function, perhaps leading to goiter (swelling of the thyroid gland, located in the neck). But there's no risk of goiter in healthy people consuming soy who are not deficient in iodine. Strict vegetarians, who eat no iodine-rich fish or dairy products, might be at risk—and eating lots of soy might boost the risk. The answer is not to give up soy, but to increase iodine intake. One way is to use a small amount of iodized salt. And vary your diet as much as possible.

 

Alzheimer's disease: As we reported two years ago, a study of middle-aged Japanese-American men showed that those who ate at least two servings of tofu a week had a faster decline in mental ability as they aged and were more prone to Alzheimer's than men who ate no tofu. But this study raised more questions than it answered. No such effects have been seen in Japan, where life expectancy is high and tofu is a staple of the diet. Indeed, soy foods may actually protect the brain. The findings of this study are questionable and should not lead you to avoid tofu or other soy foods.

 

Kidney stones: If you've ever had calcium-oxalate kidney stones, the most common type, you should limit your intake of soy. Many soy foods are rich in oxalates and thus may promote the formation of such stones in those at risk, according to a study last year.

 

Now, a look at the positive side of soy foods. Not much is certain, but the outlook is promising:

 

Heart disease: Many researchers believe that the high intake of soy in Asian countries helps explain the lower incidence of heart disease there, and the FDA has okayed a "heart-healthy" claim for soy foods. Those that contain at least 6.25 grams (about one-quarter of an ounce) of soy protein per serving can claim on the label to reduce the risk of heart disease, when consumed as part of a healthy diet. Soy helps lower high blood cholesterol and may work in other ways to benefit blood vessels and the heart. So far, of all the potential health benefits of soy, this one has the most solid evidence.

 

 

Prostate cancer: In countries where soy is a dietary staple, men are less likely to develop prostate cancer. In animal studies, soy has slowed the growth of this cancer. This anti-cancer effect is still only hypothetical; more research is needed.

 

 

Menopausal symptoms: Soy supplements (capsules or pills) containing high levels of isoflavones, as well as soy foods with lower levels, have been promoted as effective remedies for menopausal symptoms such as hot flashes, irregular sleep patterns, and vaginal dryness. But no one knows how effective these plant hormones are—the evidence is contradictory—or whether they are safe. If isoflavone supplements act like hormones, they could pose some of the same dangers. Soy foods, on the other hand, may not have enough plant hormones to combat menopausal symptoms, but at least they aren't harmful. It can't hurt to try them, as part of a healthy diet.

 

Osteoporosis: According to research in Japan, women who consume a lot of soy tend to have greater bone mass. Japanese women also have a lower rate of hip fractures than American women, but that might be because of genetics or other factors. So far, there's reason to think that consuming soy is beneficial to bones, but long-term studies are still needed.

 

Keep in mind: Soy foods are well worth adding to your diet, since they may reduce the risk of heart disease. Other possible health benefits—not so well established—include protection against breast and prostate cancer and osteoporosis. Soy is not magical; it cannot fix up a poor diet. On the other hand, there is no convincing evidence that soy foods are harmful. People have been eating them for millennia, particularly in Asia. Remember that not all soy products are created equal—soy sauce, for instance, contains no soy protein. Even soy foods with a heart-healthy label may be high in salt, sugar, and calories. Be sure to read the labels.

 

UC Berkeley Wellness Letter, November 2002

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Plain and simple this is one of the dumbest theories ever conceived by mankind. Simply look at the Chinese. They eat lots and lots of soy yet have the highest population in the world.

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Plain and simple this is one of the dumbest theories ever conceived by mankind. Simply look at the Chinese. They eat lots and lots of soy yet have the highest population in the world.

 

AND they kick the USA's butt in every category -

whooped us in the last two proxy wars, out produce us, out industrialize us, out economy-ize us, out pollute us, out police state us...

 

heh.

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Plain and simple this is one of the dumbest theories ever conceived by mankind. Simply look at the Chinese. They eat lots and lots of soy yet have the highest population in the world.

 

AND they kick the USA's butt in every category -

whooped us in the last two proxy wars, out produce us, out industrialize us, out economy-ize us, out pollute us, out police state us...

 

heh.

You might have just proved that maple syrup is good for you since the Canadians always beats you in ice hockey.

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  • 1 year later...

There are some reassuring sticky notes about soy on the index page of this sub board ( "Health & Nutrition" ).

 

On this forum and on veganfitness.net there are many reassuring posts about soy that have a decent amount of evidence behind them. If you type "Soy" into the search engine on this forum and at veganfitness.net you will find plenty of them.

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from what i've read, the estrogen like compounds in soy, actually compete with real endogenous estrogen for the receptor sites in your body, so really, soy decreases the activity of estrogen in your body, doing nothing to testosterone.

 

Just wanted to point out that it does not decrease the activity of estrogen in your body. Once these phytoestrogen bind to the receptors and the receptors are engaged, they will do their thing (with or without the real estrogen). Thus the activity of the estrogen (the phytoestrogen mimic and fool the receptors) is actually increased. They do not bind and just hold the receptor captive, they actually let it do its thing (cascade of metabolic pathways).

 

My other concern would be that this process goes on without testosterone. Testosterone has its own receptors that are not fooled by estrogen like molecules. But your body tries to keep testerone and estrogen in the same ratio such that you can get gyno from increased testosterone (synthetic usually) because your estrogen levels increase too. But does it work the other way around? If estrogen increases, does the testosterone increase also? Personally I have never seen that as a woman BBer. My estrogen goes way up sometimes, but I don't see any androgenic affects that my testosterone has gone way up too. But then again, I am big. Mmmmmmm.........

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in addition to what everyone has said the majority of packaged and proccessed foods, including non vegan/non vegetarian ones have soy in anyway.

 

Yep, which means you're pretty much doomed to become gay regardless of whether you're vegan/vegetarian or not.

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in addition to what everyone has said the majority of packaged and proccessed foods, including non vegan/non vegetarian ones have soy in anyway.

 

Yep, which means you're pretty much doomed to become gay regardless of whether you're vegan/vegetarian or not.

 

Thats depressing. I've been eating soy since I was 14 and my taste in clothing hasn't gotten one bit better .

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Thats depressing. I've been eating soy since I was 14 and my taste in clothing hasn't gotten one bit better .

 

Oh, don't be! Maybe you're just one of those macho-type gays.

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