Sad State

[Guest]

I have been reading the threads and it looks like there is not any

member here that even has a grasp on proper nutrition. No offense intended, or maybe they are just not posting what they know? I am

beginning to think that there is little merit to the vegetarian way of life.

I invite someone to show me any proof that eating vegetarian has a place in the bodybuilder's regime.

[robert]

I think you actually bring up a valid question. Thank you for suggesting no offense toward anyone. And of course I don't mean to disrespect the group either, but I think your question is valid. Not the part about people here not knowing anything, but I think the question of "proof" is valid since that is what we're always looking for.

 

I can give examples such as Vegetarian Bodybuilder Bill Pearl who even beat Arnold back in the 1960's. Granted Arnold was fairly young and hadn't won the Olympia yet, but that is just one example. Also, VEGAN Bodybuilder Andreas Cahling was Mr. Universe and won many other titles, made the Cover of FLEX Magazine, etc.

 

I'm not "large" by any means, but I was 120 pounds when I became vegan and got up to 193 pounds and have competed in 7 bodybuilding shows, including finishing 1st in one of them and 2nd in many others.

 

Alexander Dargatz, featured on the main website, is a World Champion Vegan Bodybuilder and there are many other examples, including 275-pound vegan athletes right here on this forum.

 

But I think what you're looking for is proof as far as how a vegetarian diet would be superior over a animal-based diet in the sport of bodybuilding. I could probably point you in the direct of some nutrition articles, but I think it is something that is still waiting to be discovered. The number of vegetarians (vegans) is small, and the number of vegetarian bodybuilders is much smaller (very small actually) so it's hard to tell. It may take some time, some research studies, some stellar athletes, etc.

 

I also think your point is valid that everyone posts what the know, be it a lot or very little. That is just the nature of any forum.

 

Keep on researching around and we'll do the same. There are thousands of vegan athletes out there doing very well in their sports, including bodybuilding so just give us more time to show some direct correlations between diet, exercise, health and sports results.

 

Thanks man.

[the Asocial Ape]

speaking for myself, i'm not vegan b/c i want to get big and strong, rather, i am vegan, and i want to get big and strong.

 

i'd be vegan if you died from it (though luckily you don't).

[offense74]

If we don't know anything then please enlighten us

[robert]

I think there are a lot of reasons to become vegan. Most of us can think of dozens off the top of our heads, but I think this is an important topic to address.

 

As many of you know, for nearly 10 years I've been trying to get people into Vegan Bodybuilding. I've been vegan around 13 years and bodybuilding for about 7 years.

 

What I've found is that it is way easier to get vegans into bodybuilding than to get bodybuilders into veganism. But, which creates more change? I say it's getting bodybuilders into veganism. Mainstream bodybuilders are the largest consumers of animal products for food, in the world, on an individual level. You could throw American Football Players and Powerlifters in that group as well. But in general, nobody eats more animal products than the mainstream bodybuilder.

 

So, what that leaves us with is a situation where we need to find an effective way to show mainstream bodybuilders how to adjust, change and adapt to a complete plant-based diet without experience any adverse effects from a bodybuilding perspective.

 

That is why I think this is a very valid question/point and perspective that a new member brought up. We preach to the choir everyday. I deal with vegans everyday. I get other vegans into fitness and bodybuilding on a regular basis. What I have trouble with is getting mainstream bodybuilders into veganism, and that is significant, because that is where we can have an influence and make a difference environmentally. If I were 250 pounds I think it would be a lot easier, or even 225 or a solid 210. As a top promoter of this lifestyle, I may have to just do something like that. I've been in the 190's before and I'd love to break the 200-pound barrier soon.

 

If you don't know what mainstream bodybuilders eat just check out any muscle magazine at your local store and have a look inside, or visit any mainstream bodybuilding website.

 

You'll quickly see that we need to create some effective approach to reach mainstream bodybuilders if we really want to create positive change in those who have a very environmentally destructive way of eating.

[the Asocial Ape]

that's a good comment, robert. you make some good points.

 

i can't really 'enlighten' anyone about bodybuilding and vegans, as i'm way too small to have any credibility.

 

i can make the moral or compassion argument, no problem, but can't answer jackhammerjoey's challenge (which is not to say that i believe his statement re the incompatability of v*ganism and bodybuilding)

[Zack]

Unless you're naturally big, I do not think you will get as big on a plant-based diet as you would an omnivorous one. Not that this is bad or anything, you can still build and maintain a great physique on a vegan diet.

 

I am a skinny person, but in 3 weeks with intense training I have put on 6 pounds of muscle, eating vegan of course.

 

Veganism/Vegetarianism's biggest credibility is the moral implications behind the lifestyle.

 

This is Alexander Dargatz. He's vegan, and has won multiple contests.

 

Here's Robert

 

 

 

This is Octopussoir (on the forum)

 

 

 

And if you need even more inspiration that you can be strong on a vegan diet, check out Ryan (VeganEssentials) training journal here:

 

http://www.veganbodybuilding.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=625

[offense74]

Well, We've had this discussion before and I stated before that I believe that an omni diet with lots of dairy will make you grow muscle faster, which is, as far as I understand, the main goal of a bodybuilder.

Dairy makes things grow, what I don't understand is why bodybuilders, if really serious, don't drink rat milk since nature designed that to make things grow even faster.

For me it's about throwing other things into the equation, not just growing fast. First of all, if your muscle grows fast then everything in your body grows faster, including cancer. There is a correlation between size, growth, high metabolism, excess calories, "phytonutrients defiency" and excess animal products (cholesterol, animal protein and sat. fat are all contributors) and life expectancy (both healthy and just length wise).

We have known for 500 years that as the consumption of fruits and veggies goes up, health goes up. What's newer is that beans and whole grains also are positive and the rest are more or less negative for your health. We can also be quite certain that calori restiction in general is a good thing health wise. I believe for example that CR is one of the major pirks when it comes to raw foodism. The newer research is of course not as abundant but it paints a clearer and clearer picture.

 

The general misconception is when it comes to understaning science.

1. When you read a presentation of a study you cannot disregard from all the other similar studies on the same subject.

This mistake is done excessively in bodybuilding and fitness magazines. There are heaps of studies on dairy for example and only a small percentage of them points to positive effect on human health but if you disregard from the others, just looking at the one study you will miss the whole point. This is why bodybuilders to a large extent believes that gobbling down 200 grams of whey and casein a day will not only make them bigger but also healthier and older.

 

2. Look at how the study is conducted.

In vitro can be good on some occasions to see correlations for a bigger picture. Animal studies are way too insecure since the rate of success in duplicating the results in humans are way too low.

Epidemological studies are good for finding larger pictures that can later be tested in vitro or in humans. They can also be good for testing results from earlier clinical studies.

 

3. Use statistics.

It's simple. If 95% of scientists, with their results points to a certain correlation you're chances will be bigger sticking to them. A good example is the global warming "debate". If you llook at what we're gambling with and you look at the odds for the different options it's amazing how many people are still on the side of it being a hoax. The problem again is that they see what they want in the few studies backing their point and forget about all the other studies made on the same subject.

 

Not understanding science is the main point people are confused. And all the assumptions about the insecurity of the results make diet a religious crusade, which have been apparent on this site before when it comes to Weston Price people and others.

[health freak]

Well, We've had this discussion before and I stated before that I believe that an omni diet with lots of dairy will make you grow muscle faster, which is, as far as I understand, the main goal of a bodybuilder.

Dairy makes things grow, what I don't understand is why bodybuilders, if really serious, don't drink rat milk since nature designed that to make things grow even faster.

For me it's about throwing other things into the equation, not just growing fast. First of all, if your muscle grows fast then everything in your body grows faster, including cancer. There is a correlation between size, growth, high metabolism, excess calories, "phytonutrients defiency" and excess animal products (cholesterol, animal protein and sat. fat are all contributors) and life expectancy (both healthy and just length wise).

We have known for 500 years that as the consumption of fruits and veggies goes up, health goes up. What's newer is that beans and whole grains also are positive and the rest are more or less negative for your health. We can also be quite certain that calori restiction in general is a good thing health wise. I believe for example that CR is one of the major pirks when it comes to raw foodism. The newer research is of course not as abundant but it paints a clearer and clearer picture.

 

 

Very well put and enlightening offence74. Thanks for the post

[Guest]

I can easily obtain my B vitamins and protein that I need from a

serving of lean red meat and a boneless, skinless, chicken breast.

Where do I get my B vitamins, protein, vitamins and minerals from vegetables and fruits, or is that possibe?

[the Asocial Ape]

nootch, or nutritional yeast, is really high in B vitamins, and tastes good too. i use it whenever i'm cooking something that tastes savory.

 

protein, i get from tofu, seitan (wheat meat), peas, beans

 

vitamins, well that's what fruits and vegetables are known for, is giving all kinds of vitamins.

 

fats from vegetables and fruits are all good ones, i believe, as well.

[Guest]

Yes all those things are possible...otherwise we wouldn't be around anymore. Personally I was very big before I went vegan(290-320lbs) when I went vegan my weight stayed where it was(I moved my weight up and down with track seasons for strength) however I gained considerably in terms of the muscle department when I went vegan. This is also without supplements. Before I went vegan I took every legal thing you could imagine(similar to what pro-bodybuilders do but without the drugs), and after that I only ate and got stronger despite terrible injuries I received early in college.

[DV]

I have been reading the threads and it looks like there is not any

member here that even has a grasp on proper nutrition. No offense intended, or maybe they are just not posting what they know? I am

beginning to think that there is little merit to the vegetarian way of life.

I invite someone to show me any proof that eating vegetarian has a place in the bodybuilder's regime.

 

Some of us have a tremendous grasp on proper nutrition but certainly don't post 'what we know' for numerous reasons. Nutrition is complex and many questions are not adequately answered on a forum. If you are truly interested in learning about a healthy plant-based diet then we can point you to some good websites (not forums) and some good books.

[Guest]

I have been reading the threads and it looks like there is not any

member here that even has a grasp on proper nutrition. No offense intended, or maybe they are just not posting what they know? I am

beginning to think that there is little merit to the vegetarian way of life.

I invite someone to show me any proof that eating vegetarian has a place in the bodybuilder's regime.

 

Some of us have a tremendous grasp on proper nutrition but certainly don't post 'what we know' for numerous reasons. Nutrition is complex and many questions are not adequately answered on a forum. If you are truly interested in learning about a healthy plant-based diet then we can point you to some good websites (not forums) and some good books.

 

I would enjoy reading over the websites, I am curious what your reasons could be for not posting beneficial data in the forum? Thank you

[DV]

Sometimes it's time constraints. Othertimes it's because some people don't like to be corrected regarding dubious nutritional advice - and I don't have the energy to debate.

 

Here are two solid websites:

 

http://www.pcrm.org/

http://www.vegansociety.com/html/

 

My husband is a doctor and I'm an advanced practice nurse, so we have a lot of family (some who are now also vegan) members who rely on us for giving them sound nutritional advice. We even have a family member raising a vegan child. We take our responsibility to our family health very seriously. When we went vegan I began to read everything I could about vegan nutrition and I continue to do so. Veganism may not be for everyone but it has certainly brought improved health to our family. My husband has maintained his muscle mass (he isn't looking to add any) and I have made some gains and plan to compete in the next 12-24 months. My personal experience is that veganism certainly has a place in a bodybuilder's regime. I've actually made more gains vegan than I did as an omni - but that may be due to a number of things, not just diet.

 

If you're serious about researching veganism then you'll find there are many good resources out there.

[CollegeB]

I think the lack of overt nutrition information may also be occurring because a large majority of those posting have been vegan for some time and know nutrition well enough to not have many questions to pose to the forum. 5 years ago when this forum was in its infancy as were many of the members are far as veganism goes, nutrition was pretty much the only topic. We've grown into a social hub as well as informative site.

[Guest]

I agree. Nutrition is something I've put a huge focus on for pretty much 10 years and I'm still young. Even when I first got into this I thought a vegetable based diet was by far the healthiest...moronically I correctly relized health and sports performance aren't the same thing and I felt I'd be a better athlete eating meat...I was very very wrong. Anyhow I still told people they'd be better off not eating meat and I converted a few people to vegetarianism well before I was one myself. I took these ideas from high school with me to college and only enriched myself coming to pretty much the same end but with a better logical understanding of how our bodies work in small scale. Taking various bio, nutrition and organic chemistry courses doesn't make me a doctor but they did help me formulate my ideas the same way a doctor does. Doctors give advice without question yet they are disproved on a daily basis because good science gets better and better and the science once seen as good science can even potentially be seen as bad science. We aren't doctors but we can share what works for ourselves and people can try them to see if it makes them feel good or not. None of us defy the laws of biochemistry...its just that our bodies all work a bit differently and people have to use themselves as mini lab subjects to see what works. For the most part this is a new lifestyle and the only true way to find what the perfect diet(assuming it exhists) would probably require some of the cruel testing on animals we so hate...however not on the animals that are normally tested on but human beings and this isn't going to happen. So in the meantime dialog about what we do is the best way to understand how our bodies work. Stating what works for you and friends may not work for the next man but it may. Heck...most of us have goals that aren't really healthy to begin with and thats a fact. Dietarily some of us are here as vegans with goals with a healthy diet...some are here for pure performance which is by no means the same thing. Sure some things are definiately unhealthy and wrong to promote but if something isn't blatantly false then it should be ok to share.

[Guest]

Well, I have heard plenty of testimonials here, which is what I hear about every new diet, product or service. But when it get's down to the nitty gritty, there is no information that is really available. I visited the links posted here and found nothing there. As far as I am concerned, there remains nothing to convince me that there is any benefit to the vegetarian regime. Best of luck to you all, and I hope that you do not

become sick from your lack of proper nutrition.

[Zack]

Well, I have heard plenty of testimonials here, which is what I hear about every new diet, product or service. But when it get's down to the nitty gritty, there is no information that is really available. I visited the links posted here and found nothing there. As far as I am concerned, there remains nothing to convince me that there is any benefit to the vegetarian regime. Best of luck to you all, and I hope that you do not

become sick from your lack of proper nutrition.

 

 

Peace.

 

Does anyone else think this could be bikerdave back in action?

[Veganitaliana]

 

What I've found is that it is way easier to get vegans into bodybuilding than to get bodybuilders into veganism. But, which creates more change? I say it's getting bodybuilders into veganism. Mainstream bodybuilders are the largest consumers of animal products for food, in the world, on an individual level. You could throw American Football Players and Powerlifters in that group as well. But in general, nobody eats more animal products than the mainstream bodybuilder.

 

So, what that leaves us with is a situation where we need to find an effective way to show mainstream bodybuilders how to adjust, change and adapt to a complete plant-based diet without experience any adverse effects from a bodybuilding perspective.

 

That is why I think this is a very valid question/point and perspective that a new member brought up. We preach to the choir everyday. I deal with vegans everyday. I get other vegans into fitness and bodybuilding on a regular basis. What I have trouble with is getting mainstream bodybuilders into veganism, and that is significant, because that is where we can have an influence and make a difference environmentally. If I were 250 pounds I think it would be a lot easier, or even 225 or a solid 210. As a top promoter of this lifestyle, I may have to just do something like that. I've been in the 190's before and I'd love to break the 200-pound barrier soon.

 

If you don't know what mainstream bodybuilders eat just check out any muscle magazine at your local store and have a look inside, or visit any mainstream bodybuilding website.

 

You'll quickly see that we need to create some effective approach to reach mainstream bodybuilders if we really want to create positive change in those who have a very environmentally destructive way of eating.

 

Robert, what is the percentage of the population that is even into bodybuilding? How much of the population even aspires to be a body builder? Why is it more important to reach more bodybuilders than ordinary people? Perhaps I am over generalizing, but I think that most bodybuilders, whether vegan or not, have an unhealthy "bigorexic" attitude towards their bodies. To me, this is a psychological problem equivalent to anorexia. What I love about this forum is that it is geared towards health more than just building mass at any cost. If the avatar of Jackhammerjoey is a true picture of his physique-his comments about vegans lack of proper nutrition are truly ironic.

[pazios2002]

Well, I have heard plenty of testimonials here, which is what I hear about every new diet, product or service. But when it get's down to the nitty gritty, there is no information that is really available. I visited the links posted here and found nothing there. As far as I am concerned, there remains nothing to convince me that there is any benefit to the vegetarian regime. Best of luck to you all, and I hope that you do not

become sick from your lack of proper nutrition.

 

 

Could you please post a photo of yourself for us?

 

It is my life work to get as sick as I can, but unfortunately my doctor says that my recent blood and gastrointestinal results place me in perfect health. So I am going to follow your advice and start eating animal products, so that I can stop flying in the face of a family history of prostate cancer, breast cancer, diabetes and colon cancer. I am running out of time and need to catch something; God damn vegan diet.

[Bigbwii]

Well, I have heard plenty of testimonials here, which is what I hear about every new diet, product or service. But when it get's down to the nitty gritty, there is no information that is really available. I visited the links posted here and found nothing there. As far as I am concerned, there remains nothing to convince me that there is any benefit to the vegetarian regime. Best of luck to you all, and I hope that you do not

become sick from your lack of proper nutrition.

 

MMmm...didn't see that coming!...

[DV]

Well, I have heard plenty of testimonials here, which is what I hear about every new diet, product or service. But when it get's down to the nitty gritty, there is no information that is really available. I visited the links posted here and found nothing there. As far as I am concerned, there remains nothing to convince me that there is any benefit to the vegetarian regime. Best of luck to you all, and I hope that you do not

become sick from your lack of proper nutrition.

 

 

Peace.

 

Does anyone else think this could be bikerdave back in action?

 

Josh,

You're reading my mind. I just said that to another member yesterday. Unfortunately, if this guy is for real, he represents the general population. If you can't convince him of something in one website, one television show, one magazine article - well the ADHD kicks in and he's off!!

[Zack]

Josh? Read my username DV.

 

[DV]

Oh Jeez, Zack! I looked at the avatar!