Sad State

[robert]

Yeah, I got confused too and now I have a headache. I'm going to go make a smoothie now.

[Kon]

no amount of information can gaurantee acceptance of it if the person ultimately isn't bothered to listen to it.

To be truelly interested, one must atleast be genuinely willing to change their perception, unfortunately, many don't like change due to their enjoyment of being comfortable and instead strive to keep things comfortable when the going gets rough.

To change, one must look inside themselves. Those who can't face their own fears will not be able to change.

[offense74]

Well, when it comes to belief systems, here's how I see it.

When you subscribe to a doctrine of any sort there are two possible reactions to a fact the makes your belief system inconsistent with reality:

1. You change your belief system.

or

2. You try to alter reality.

 

Empiricism and science uses 1. and religion and political paradigms mostly use 2.

 

When looking at yourself in the context of a real world with facts and physics you have to, in any given situation, figure out which one of these two you choose. It's not easy to know the facts sometimes but when you do and you still choose 2. at least I would like to reevaluate once more until I hopefully find a way to change my belief system to be consistent with the new reality, i.e. using 1.

[New World Vegan]

Yea, it's a sad state. It saddens me that these people are so SURE they're right about something when their only education is commercial slogans like: "Milk it does a body good", and "The encredible edible egg".

 

"proper nutrition"

I take it he means our twisted modern society's IDEA of proper nutrition.

 

"I can easily obtain my B vitamins and protein from lean red meat "

There's nothing easy about obtaining anything from meat; it's very difficult on us plant-eaters.

"Where do I get my B vitamins, protein, vitamins and minerals from vegetables and fruits, or is that possibe?"

Now he's asking questions about a diet that he's CONvinced is bad.

 

What did he expect to acomplish?.....I don't think he'll return to answer.

[Odidnetne]

Well, I have heard plenty of testimonials here, which is what I hear about every new diet, product or service. But when it get's down to the nitty gritty, there is no information that is really available. I visited the links posted here and found nothing there. As far as I am concerned, there remains nothing to convince me that there is any benefit to the vegetarian regime. Best of luck to you all, and I hope that you do not

become sick from your lack of proper nutrition.

 

MMmm...didn't see that coming!...

 

Me either.

[xveganjoshx]

Oh Jeez, Zack! I looked at the avatar!

 

Uh, yeah.... what's up with that? I mean, I admire me every chance I get, but, really?...

[Zack]

I just find you and flanders extremely attractive, didn't you know?

[veggieprincess]

Well, I have heard plenty of testimonials here, which is what I hear about every new diet, product or service. But when it get's down to the nitty gritty, there is no information that is really available. I visited the links posted here and found nothing there. As far as I am concerned, there remains nothing to convince me that there is any benefit to the vegetarian regime. Best of luck to you all, and I hope that you do not

become sick from your lack of proper nutrition.

 

I think this is the same type of person that would fire his trainer if he didn't see gains or bulging biceps within 1 week.

 

Just because we couldn't convince you in 100 words or less how Veganism is as nutrionally sound (or is more sound) than a meat eating diet, you're moving on? That's just ridiculous.

 

Any lifestyle change requires patience, research and time to adjust to.

 

If inquiring whether or not a Vegan diet could be as nutritionally sound as a meat-eating diet were truly important, you would've given it more research than one thread on a forum!

 

Absolutely ridiculous

[Zack]

This member was a spammer, in case anyone didn't know.

[andesuma]

This is a good quote ...

 

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." -Einstein

 

[aab1]

I have been reading the threads and it looks like there is not any

member here that even has a grasp on proper nutrition. No offense intended, or maybe they are just not posting what they know? I am

beginning to think that there is little merit to the vegetarian way of life.

I invite someone to show me any proof that eating vegetarian has a place in the bodybuilder's regime.

 

WE're the ones that don't know about nutrition?

 

Meat is poison for the human body, definately when it's cooked, and possibly when it's raw.

 

Proper eating vegans are also in perfect health (but there are those who eat soy, sugar, and other toxic things that are still vegan but unhealthy).

[Zack]

 

Proper eating vegans are also in perfect health.

 

Definitely not true. Vegans are susceptible to sickness as well, not as much, but still not perfect health.

[aab1]

I can easily obtain my B vitamins and protein that I need from a

serving of lean red meat and a boneless, skinless, chicken breast.

Where do I get my B vitamins, protein, vitamins and minerals from vegetables and fruits, or is that possibe?

 

You're the one saying others don't know about nutrition? Every single plant has protein, many plants have 2 to 12 times more protein than meat.

 

Your next point is even more mind blogging, you think we can get vitamins from meat and not fruits and vegetables? Meat has almost no vitamins, vitamins come from plants.

[veggieprincess]

Sometimes it's time constraints. Othertimes it's because some people don't like to be corrected regarding dubious nutritional advice - and I don't have the energy to debate.

 

Here are two solid websites:

 

http://www.pcrm.org/

 

This was a GREAT website! Thanks so much for this link.

 

I was on it for an hour and a half!!!! Very informative articles!

[BraddersTheDog]

"proper nutrition"

I take it he means our twisted modern society's IDEA of proper nutrition.

 

"Where do I get my B vitamins, protein, vitamins and minerals from vegetables and fruits, or is that possibe?"

Now he's asking questions about a diet that he's CONvinced is bad.

 

 

This is a bit strong. To be fair I just read through this thread and there seem to be a couple of issues.

 

One is the fact that the human race as a species would not be where it is today were it not for its diet; it has had a massive impact on all aspects of developing us into what we are. To say that eating meat is an idea thought up by our 'twisted modern society' is just wrong. In particular, eating fish and meat has helped develop our brains.

 

Another is the fact that you assume that jack (or whatever his name is) is convinced a vegan diet is a bad thing. He's asking for information about it, the reason he is not convinced is that the information he has been given - according to him - isn't cutting it. I think if anything HE'S not the one making presumptions. Again I put it to you:

 

It saddens me that these people are so SURE they're right about something when their only education is commercial slogans like: "Milk it does a body good"

 

If we can just forget about Jack's supposed presumptions and look at this fine example for just one minute we might see something of a contradiction.

 

And before the Bradders-bashing begins; I do go to the gym, I have seen results after eating both meat and drinking protein shakes and I have absolutely no problem with vegans. However, when I read comments like some of these claiming that meat-eaters are narrow minded and poorly educated (nutritionally speaking) it makes me wonder.

 

And lastly:

 

Meat is poison for the human body

 

We wouldn't have the brain power to be having this debate if it weren't for taking this 'poison'. So let's at least be fair guys.

[Zack]

In particular, eating fish and meat has helped develop our brains.

 

I totally agree.

[Guest]

I think the evidence of meat helping our brain development is very meager at best. If anything meat has allowed humans to live in areas they otherwise wouldn't but there isn't anything in meat that you can't get from veggie based foods.

[the Asocial Ape]

saying that what we ate effected our brain's development is totally Lamarckian.

 

meat and fish consumption have nothing to do with the development of the human brain.

 

evolutionary pressure is what caused it to be the way it is. i think the current hypothesis is the radiator theory.

[Zack]

DHA and EPA?

[health freak]

saying that what we ate effected our brain's development is totally Lamarckian.

 

meat and fish consumption have nothing to do with the development of the human brain.

 

evolutionary pressure is what caused it to be the way it is. i think the current hypothesis is the radiator theory.

 

 

I agree with this. to say that eating meat and dairy has contributed to our mental development is also another presumption.

 

IMO, If people were vegans (after the ice age ordeal) now our mental and body health, planet and animals would be in a much better condition.

[BraddersTheDog]

Yes I suppose you could make an argument that meat hasn't helped develop our brains into what they are but it isn't a particularly rational one. It's a fact that in order for our brains to develop into what they are today we required a much higher intake of calories compared to other primates (who use roughly 8% RMR for brain development as opposed to our own 20-25% RMR). Now, where did these extra calories come from?

Did they come from eating a lot more fruit? It would have to have been a LOT more fruit and even if this is the case, it is also fact that we WERE eating meat (but of course, the fruit could have developed the brain and the meat/fish been irrelevant to its evolution [hmmm]). Hunter-gatherer communities are known to have eaten meat, and we are descended from the hunter-gatherer.

 

Science also agrees that in order for our brains to develop into what they are today, dietary changes were necessary; this coincides with the addition of meat to the diet. To ignore this is to be incredibly naive.

[Zack]

Yes I suppose you could make an argument that meat hasn't helped develop our brains into what they are but it isn't a particularly rational one. It's a fact that in order for our brains to develop into what they are today we required a much higher intake of calories compared to other primates (who use roughly 8% RMR for brain development as opposed to our own 20-25% RMR). Now, where did these extra calories come from?

Did they come from eating a lot more fruit? It would have to have been a LOT more fruit and even if this is the case, it is also fact that we WERE eating meat (but of course, the fruit could have developed the brain and the meat/fish been irrelevant to its evolution [hmmm]). Hunter-gatherer communities are known to have eaten meat, and we are descended from the hunter-gatherer.

 

Science also agrees that in order for our brains to develop into what they are today, dietary changes were necessary; this coincides with the addition of meat to the diet. To ignore this is to be incredibly naive.

 

Well said.

 

Also, the ability to cook resulted in an increased caloric intake. I believe seafood really had a lot to do with brain development due to omega 3's in them. That's my opinion though.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Zack

[BraddersTheDog]

I think the evidence of meat helping our brain development is very meager at best. If anything meat has allowed humans to live in areas they otherwise wouldn't but there isn't anything in meat that you can't get from veggie based foods.

 

You're right but that doesn't mean that meat doesn't contain certain properties (eg. protein) more abundantly than veggies, and certainly that it is/was more readily available and as such a more feasible choice for our ancestors.

 

To assume that it is purely veggie based foods that have developed our brains is a hugley naive.

 

I agree with this. to say that eating meat and dairy has contributed to our mental development is also another presumption.

 

To say that it hasn't it a far bigger one and goes against a lot of scientific thinking.

 

saying that what we ate effected our brain's development is totally Lamarckian.

 

Lamarck is irrelevant here, I'm not saying that eating meat meant that a primate's offspring became more intelligent for any reason other than those in line with the standard theory of evolution. By having a diet higher in calories one species was able to use more of it's RMR for brain development. Each primate that developed it's brain (even a fraction) more than others will have been able to outperform it's competitors, and as such pass it's genes on more efficiently; where does Lamarck come into this? Your Lamarckian argument used in this context could just as easily be used to argue that no species should ever evolve at all because it can't pass it's characteristics directly onto it's offspring. Species' do evolve and part of this evolution (be it physical, neural etc.) is a direct result of it's diet.

[the Asocial Ape]

 

Lamarck is irrelevant here, I'm not saying that eating meat meant that a primate's offspring became more intelligent for any reason other than those in line with the standard theory of evolution...

 

i misunderstood the argument, then.

 

i was saying i don't think there's anything special in meat that drove brain development.

 

personally, i think the ability to eat meat, and damn near anything else, along with our hands, and our generalist strategy, were the traits that contributed to our fitness, and evolutionary success.

[BraddersTheDog]

 

 

i was saying i don't think there's anything special in meat that drove brain development.

 

I agree, what is found in meat can be found in plants. It's not only the meat's substance but also its properties (i.e. it's not that meat is 'special', just that it contains higher proportions of substances such as protein which are/were more readily accessible hence helped drive brain development).

 

I find the idea of vegan bodybuilding quite fascinating and that's why I've come to the site. I'm interested to see what results are obtainable without eating meat products (although admittedly I wouldn't ever do this myself).