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Where does veganbodybuilding.com stand?


Zack
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I'm writing this out of concern by some members, me included, about where VBB is going. There is a lot of misinformation going around, and some of us are genuinely concerned that this site no longer has very much credibility as a "bodybuilding forum." Most of the serious lifters and even runners/cyclists have migrated to veganfitness or elsewhere. VBB also has somewhat of a bad rep outside of this community.

 

I'm starting this post just to get a discussion going on the direction of the forum, and what we can do to "repair it" some may have no concern at all, but a few of us do. Especially with the raw food section, telling people that are wanting to be serious lifters that they don't need to watch their protein intake and other things is pretty foolish, and I think most will agree. My personal opinion is that the raw food section has done a bit of harm to the credibility of this site as a vegan bodybuilding forum. The general direction of the forum seems to discourage newcomers....

 

Keep the discussion civil, but I'd like to see how others feel about this.

Edited by Zack
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A popular forum with lots of members will obviously have alot of variable opinions on things, which is the complete opposite of a small compact community which focuses on specific beliefs and structures.

I have seen this type fo stuff occur before on other forums and this is to be expected. I have been on small forums where they consist of tight nit groups of individuals with a similar goal and outlook, and it is great, and then the forums would grow and grow(100 members up to thousands) and there would be all sorts of variable opinions on things and a lot of diversity, and then eventually people would break away and form their own tight nit groups who want to return to the small scale community they miss, and they often bash the original forum for having changed.

 

so obviously, a small forum works differently than a large forum, and all too often the growing forum must change and adapt to the new user base.

 

You can try to restrict certain activities and discussions, but it will force a lot of people to leave, and the forum will shrink down to it's appropriate size where all the member share the outlook that the forum accepts.

 

As far as this guy who doesnt like this site, it is to be expected. All he is trying to do is surround himself with like-minded people who share a similar outlook, and hence can help each other in their own like-minded journey.

Here we have lots of people with different views on everything as far as I can tell, and it is to be expected that such a system that this guy follows does not exist in the same strict way.

 

Having such a system though, would require a lot of moderation to overlook each section that is designed to be strict in its specific ways.

 

it would be great to discuss how to maintain the positives of a smaller forum within the positives of a larger forum.

Edited by Kon
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I think this is a ludicrous myspace group. There are legitimate athletes here, people that are doing their best to be and people that will be in the future.

 

As for the raw food and protein thing I think most people have stated you need to eat a significant amount of raw food and protein/amino acids will follow...its the same deal with cooked food. Anyway if people want to be really serious lifters and gain TONS of muscle they shouldn't be raw to begin with but if they do thats the best way to go about it. If you want to be a serious lifter(meaning benching well over 100lbs over bodyweight or squatting 2.5x your body weight) then you just need to eat whatever is in your face. We don't have many people here that have those goals and you've gotta have some special gifts to do that too...but for everyone else that just wants to improve themselves I think we've been using fairly sound judgment. People need to be realistic with what they want. If they want to eat a healthy diet and gain some muscle then do that. If you want to get humongous without drugs you've gotta be willing to sacrifice health and eat whatever you can. Unfortunately we haven't really had any new people come to the forum with those desires mixed with the right genes. I think part of that is the mindset of most vegans when they pick up veganism. It seems virtually every vegan I know has picked up veganism before they ever thought about training thus people get a later start and thats the way things are gonna be for a long time due to the fact that athletes are more anti vegan that the general public. Until more people that are raised as athletes and go to veganism after...or are vegans raised as athletes(probably even more rare)...we simply won't get very many incredibly gifted athletes here. And thats the only thing keeping us from being seen as a completely credible bodybuilding/athletes forum. In time we will have people on this forum that are just as strong and just as big as the non drug users on other bodybuilding or fitness forums. Its just gonna take time. And until then I think we're just gonna get ridiculed by people. Most other fitness forums don't attract anyone other than people that are already incredible human specimens...no regular people. I think this is something thats good about this forum. We have regular people that never really had an interest in fitness and have wanted to improve themselves from a base of not being raised as an athlete. People that go to some other forums(not veganfitness by any means) that aren't great athletes will simply not be respected and they'll feel very small(emotionally) very quickly. Nobody really wants to help people unless the person they may be helping can help them. Here people care and thats a very important thing.

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A side note...the guy who started that group on myspace has a lot of members that don't have a single mentioning of veganism on their pages...this makes me think they are mostly anti vegan myspacers. And yes the person who started the group is obviously vegan but he's being mocked by ever non vegan person that joins the group and that seems to be most of the people joining.

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I think your missing the reason of his page though..

 

he created it with a more specific mindset in mind, which is different than the forum we have where anyone can join and dont really have a specific mindset or experience and hence everything gets diluted with everything else. Everyone is basically on their own level here, but on his page, everyone is asked to be on a specific level.

And this is all fine and to be expected based upon the different structures of both pages.

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First things first, can you wrap the URL in your message?

 

Being vegan and an an athlete is still a pretty new concept. We have to go on what we know but also try new ways and see if they work. I think this is done in here to a big extent.

Most of what you will read in BB magazines is flawed or flat out BS in one way or another. The big guys in there tell you what they eat but if you ask any toothpick in the gym almost all of them will eat in the same manner. It's just that no one asks them. There are so many lies and myths when it comes to diet, busting some of them is our responsibility.

 

I do believe that the raw food section is hurting us a bit. Not because of the raw food per se but for the misunderstanding of critique as a concept. There are a few of us that tries to pinpoint the flaws of the raw food doctrine. For me that's normal, it's how I learn and progress. I'm always critical to most everything I read or hear. I believe that this is how most raw foodists reach they're goal, to question the 'truths' given to them. Somewhere, however, this process stops and becomes religion. The raw food section in general is much less open to critique than other parts of the forum. On the other hand if it isn't critiqued it will appear as if all of us in here unquestionable believes in it, which we don't. So I don't really know what to do anymore. Shall I go in there and try to defeat religion with logic and get flamed for it or should I stay out? I don't know, but I do think that if no one critiques it it will hurt our community and the forum.

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I don't think the raw food section needs to be that way. The reason why I don't think we need to be all that critical is because nobody in the raw food section wants to gain 50lbs of muscle. Pretty much everyone wants modest improvements and they want to be healthy(whether everyone agrees raw food is healthy or not is debatable but its not being a bodybuilder is a healthy thing and that isn't all that debatable). And if that hurts the forum it only does so because nobody there wants to get truly huge and I'm pretty sure everyone concurs that no 180lb vegan switching to raw food will ever be 250lbs and all the raw foodists recognize that. Sure modest gains in size and strength don't fit the bodybuilding doctrine and if you need to fit the bodybuilding doctrine to make this place work I think very few of us belong here...I know I don't.

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I am not sure what harm the raw section is meant to be doing? One point of view on a forum doesn't represent everyone's opinion. Anybody reading any particular post will come to their own conclusions about it. To me, here are the scenarios:

 

1) Someone thinks raw food is nonsense, and so doesn't read the raw food section. Conclusion; they don't have a problem with the raw section since they haven't read any of it.

 

2) Someone thinks raw food is nonsense, but reads the section anyway, and doesn't change their mind. No harm has been done, they just disagree with what has been said there.

 

3) Someone thinks raw food is nonsense, but reads the section, tries out a few things, and finds that it works for them. Bonus.

 

4) Someone thinks raw food is nonsense, but reads the section, tries out a few things, and finds that it doesn't work for them. No harm done, they feel they have explored raw food and they can move on.

 

5) Someone likes the raw food lifestyle / diet, and so uses the section. Bonus.

 

If raw foodism is supposedly misinformation, then people will soon find themselves not getting anywhere, and they will change to another approach. They won't just stick with raw food even though it's getting them nowhere. Eating a raw food diet in itself won't make you ill or anything, so it isn't a danger.

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I don't look at this site as a bodybuilding forum. Except for a few serious athletes here, I don't get much bodybuilding or nutritional information on this site. I go to other sites or read books and journals for what I consider to be qualified information.

 

I first came to this site as an invite from Robert, at a time when I was just starting to get regularly involved in lifting. I saw it as more of a vegan community at the time, especially the regional section. I was thankful for that section when I moved to Portland, as it was very informative. When I started seriously training this summer, I did my research elsewhere.

 

I do get involved in some the the critiquing of nutritional information but I never look to see which section it's in (raw or otherwise). I just read new posts, regardless of where they're from. I think the raw food section has brought many "raw food curious" people to the forum but I don't know that they're all into bodybuilding or other sports. I seem to get pounded a bit when I question or criticize anything in the nutritional/raw sections but I'm beginning to thinks that's rather hilarious - especially when I discover the age, educational level or qualifications of the person who gets on the defensive (that's not meant to belittle anyone, but I assure you that you'd think the same thing if you were on the other end). In that respect, I do find SOME of the raw food beliefs (yes, beliefs, not evidence) to be akin to religious beliefs. I now stay away from that section, realizing that it is patrolled by some who cannot handle a questioning of their faith.

 

I also find that this forum is used by some people who ask questions that should be answered only by a qualified health professional who has PHYSICALLY examined the person and has taken a full health history. But it's like that all over the internet. These members seeking information tend to be young and impressionable, unfortunately. Sometimes when I try to point out that some information given might be inaccurate or even dangerous, I get flamed by people who don't understand human physiology beyond what they learned in high school. This has truly discouraged me from even starting or participating in threads that discuss scientifically proven, peer reviewed studies or information. It sometimes appears as though anything conventional (read, scientifically proven, based on evidence in a reproducible study) is disregarded on sections of this forum and that which is personal and/or of dubious nature is more valued. I notice that most health/fitness educated professionals who join this forum don't post much and don't stay long. And this forum suffers for that, IMO.

 

Where is the forum going? Who knows. I like a lot of members here and therefore I stay. My schedule lightens up considerably in December and my training will intensify as a result. As a female in her 40s who is planning on competing in the next 2 years, I think I can add something positive to this forum. I'll probably just post in the training sections and try to stay away from the rest.

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I think this site appeals to a range of people, as it covers a large number of topics. We still have a lot of Big Strong vegans providing feedback on training and workouts (Jonathan, VeganEssentials etc) and a lot of people use or browse the workout logs.

The Forum will change and people will come and go, that is the nature of these things.

A myspace group, with one picture taken at a dodgy angle, ditching Robert and a Leader with no pics to back up his claims can get stuffed in my opinion.

If Markus decides to read this, show some proof. We put our workouts and pictures out there for everyone to see.

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I'm not talking about the myspace group, maybe I shouldn't have put that in.

 

There are not very many newcomers to the forum that stick around or are very active lately. Basically to me it seems like it's just a core group of us without many new additions. Johnathon is basically gone, Ryan(VE) does post some.

 

 

I'm not against having a raw section or anything like that, I just don't think the way it stands now is beneficial. To me with that section it seems like it would appear as though that's how the forum is slanted. Do we need a "cooked food forum" or something?

 

I removed the link, that's not what I wanted the focus of the discussion to be on.

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I think thats the way the forum has always been. We have some people that have been here for a while...some over a year longer than I've been here. But ever since I've been here newcomers haven't stuck around very long. Some people come to get what they want and off they go...nothing is wrong with that and that seems to be what lots of people do at every forum...thats what I did at veganfitness. Its a great forum but I came and went. I enjoyed it but I just like this place much more. I check in and post maybe two or three times a year and it seems we've had some people come back here to do that too. There are others here that did that as well. Nothing has changed at all. I remember Robert asking me to PM people that haven't posted in a while to see if they just forgot they were members...this was about a year ago. While doing this I noticed tons of these members(well over 100) were members for no more than a few days or weeks and posted less than 20 times. Thats just the way these things work. Also this forum is still not mostly raw(probably never will be but who knows) and until then its safe to say that this is pretty much a cooked food forum with some raw foodists. The only thing is that raw food is still a very novel idea so people post more about it. Everyone knows tons about eating cooked food and cooked food nutrition so people tend to not ask about that. Vegans that come here aren't curious about cooked vegan foods because most of the newcomers have been standard cooked food vegans for a few years before they even came here.

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Very good discussion Zack. I know you and me a couple of other people were having this discussion in one form or another for quite some time, and it's good that it's now become a public discussion.

 

My opinion

I joined this forum in February of 2007. I had been stalking the forum, daily, since June 2006. This forum was the reason that inspired me to go vegan. It was the reason that inspired me to start bodybuilding. I've gained an incredible amount of mass, muscle, confidence, and self esteem in the last 14 months or so, and part of the motivation to achieve that has come from the inspiration of this forum. That being said, this forum seems to be headed in a downward spiral.

 

When I first got into the forum, in June 2006, I learned a bunch about bodybuilding, FROM HERE. That anyone could learn the valuable lessons of bodybuilding from this forum, NOW, is a shocking concept. In 2006, there were a bunch of big guys posting here, real bodybuilders. Alex, jonathon, ryan, buzz, and robert, when he was makin it happen, back in the day. They posted their training, and discussed sound training logic and splits. They posted their nutrition, with the proper bodybuilding focus on healthy carbs such as rice/potatoes/oats/pasta, healthy protein sources (soy/wheat/legumes/etc), and healthy fats (olive oils, flax, etc). They also always placed value on the consumption of lots of organic fruits and vegetables. Notice I said they placed value on eating those things, but they were not mindlessly obsessed and limited to those things. This discussion about bodybuilding, and doing it the "balanced diet vegan" way, inspired me. Even in the light of lots of talking about bodybuilding and powerlifting, back in the day, there was talk about endurance sports too. Even though that's not my cup of tea, I respected the endurance athletes in their goals towards fitness using a vegan diet. I respect them to this day, and think they have a place here as part of the "fitness" in "Vegan bodybuilding and fitness".

 

Around the spring of 2007, things started to change. The raw food section of the forum started to grow exponentially. The misinformation, non-sense, and magical thinking overtook the raw food forum, and started to rear it's ugly head into other sections of the forum. People, gullible people, started following the advice of the raw food "gurus". When they started feeling ill and unwell, they were told it was "the detox" and bombarded with the continual advice of "just get through the detox, just get through the detox". This made them lose further weight and strength. Losing weight (in the form of muscle mass) and strength is counter to the ideals of bodybuilding. I don't care whether you think it's healthy or not, it has no place on a forum that is supposed to be aimed at bodybuilding.

 

Raw foodists spread misinformation and lies. At best, the raw food guru's are ignorant and uninformed. At worst, they are highly dangerous.

 

Raw food magic, as I call it, hurts the forum. It hurts people when they get bad advice and feel unwell. It hurts people when they follow the religious doctrine of raw food, don't get the results they want, and turn their back on their faith, raw food, and go back to what they were doing before. What does this mean? It means they reject veganism, all of it, and go back to eating meat. The promotion of bodybuilding and fitness with raw food hurts animals in this way. This pisses me off because I take a stand against those who harm animals, both the non-humans who suffer due to people reverting back to meat eating, and the humans that suffer poor health, deficiencies, and deceit. So I take a stand against YOU, the raw food guru's. Raw food guru's also threaten the credibility of veganisms place in bodybuilding. Many omnivores, already anxious at accepting the idea of a successful vegan version of their diet, will outright laugh at people who eat a handful of grapes a day and dismiss protein, saying the don't believe in protein (or worse, in calories, vitamins, or anything that has a basis in logic and a successful track record, as far as bodybuilding is concerned).

 

Now, I am not against eating organic, raw, unprocessed foods. I believe people should be eating raw fruits and vegetables. Most people could benefit from eating more greens and fruits, especially in our society. But eating all raw? Give me a break. Now when we consider the needs of the bodybuilder, lifter, and most other athletes, whose nutrition needs are even more supreme than that of regular people in our society, the idea of all raw becomes even more laughable. Raw food hurts the credibility of a vegan bodybuilding and fitness forum. We should be eating some raw foods, but diets and religions which have as their basis the exclusive consumption of raw food, coupled with an ideology that condemns proven science and success, has absolutely no place on a bodybuilding/fitness forum.

 

But maybe this isn't one.

 

I love you all (well, most of you), and I love the sense of community amongst many of us. The sense of community is a big plus to this forum, and one of the only reasons that keeps me here. But we really ought to think critically about this forum, what it means, what it's purpose is (both intended purpose and actual purpose), and where it's going. This is how I feel.

-Josh

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just an idea, but maybe unifying some forum sections would help bring some focus back to the forum. I personally only visit like a few sections.

Having a bunch of sections is confusing in my opinion and dilutes/spreads out all the posts.

 

There needs to be a clear structure to the forum sections and whatever sections there are, they all need to be strong.

 

example:

 

News & Announcements

General Discussion & Information

Vegan Health & Nutrition (Foods, supplements, vitamins, etc)

Vegan Kitchen (cooking, recipies, mealplans, etc)

Beginner's Vegan Bodybuilding (questions, concerns, advice, game plans, support!)

Experienced Bodybuilding (detailed bodybuilding discussion)

Fitness & Training (Exercises, training journals, routines, etc)

Off-Topic (anything off-topic)

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Rob wants the site to appeal to as many people as possible, and he doesn't want to squash anyone's right to their opinion, and he wants to have a section for everything to allow all subjects to be discussed. That's cool, but I guess what people are worried about is that some bad advice will inevitably be given, and followed. I don't have the knowledge to be able to step into a conversation about nutrition and say "That's definitely wrong, because of XYZ". It would be good if we did have experts who could do that, in a friendly way, like a nutrition moderator or something. I am sure there are some very knowledgeable people on this forum who could do that, if they had the time and patience, but it's hard to assign someone like that, as people will inevitably disagree with them when they have a controversial / strong opinion on something.

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My dear online-family!

During VV that joke about cookedfood and rawfood was going on and nobody took it too seriously.

Many of the active members are here because of the open-mindedness and positive atmosphere. I am still attracted my the idea of picking people up where they stand (concerning diet and/or training).

IMO the character of an internet-forum is formed by the active members.

Since many vegans experience with their diet and try rawfood it is understandable that the rawfood-ideas come to a forum like this as well.

But I do not see any raw-guru or "gullible" raw-disciples here. What I see is many members are experiencing with a more or less high percentage of rawfood and asking for advice. Since there is a raw-section on this board it was used for an exchange of information. I have not seen any raw-guru here who tells everyone else to follow him.

 

The discussion about EAA in the rawfood-section made it obvious to everyone that there are different believes in this forum: For a lot of members only scientificly proven diets are advicable, for some (who to some extent question modern science or parts of it) personal experience can also provide a lot of information and that (especially on the www) it is okay to share it. A normal website can be used to spread only the authors opinion. A forum is always a place where people with different opinions discuss.

For me as an health/fitness educated professional (sports scientist) there are many good reasons to critizise the system of conventional science and the believe in it as well.

Just because someone does not believe in the same scientific system does not make him/her someone who "patrols a section and cannot handle a questioning of his/her faith".

For those who want to focus on scientifically "proven facts" I suggest to create a new section where the current state of the art and new studies can be published.

 

IMO the big guys mentioned earlier left for different reasons. If it really were the rawfoodists who made them leave, I am sorry for them. I think veganism is also about having an open mind.

You all know that the accepted medical doctrine still states vegans will develope signs of malnutrition and that veganism is unhealthy and even dangerous although we proved this is nonsense... (does anybody else see the parallels? Those who believed in veganism did not have any studies to support their believe, too.)

 

If Robert wants to really focus on getting new members who do BB on a high-level and make existing members start BB etc. than you are right: Shut the raw-section down, delete posts that are not about BB. Write some stickies that tell newbies how to start. Send some admins in to control that the forum does not shift away again. The question is how many members will be left then.

If anyone here really wants to make this a Vegan Bodybuilding Community only: Grow and be an example for Bodybuilders.

 

I second what Richard wrote about the rawfood-section very much!

Maybe Robert should write a neutral text about that raw/cooked discussion telling new and old members that there is a raw-section for anyone interested in and if they are looking for info about a conventional vegan diet and being an (BB-) athlete only, just not to read that section.

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Kon,

Great idea. Reformatting the forum might be very good start.

 

Josh,

Thanks for your honesty. I believe that raw foodism is a fad (and an ecologically unsustainable one at that) and was a bit shocked when an entire section was devoted to it on this forum. Then, when former bodybuilders started "detoxing" their muscle mass away, I started feeling a bit like I was in the twighlight zone. Glad to know I wasn't alone.

 

It would be nice to make this a forum centered on bodybuilding and fitness for vegans, rather than a forum for people who like to type and happen to be vegan or vegan-curious. I'll do my part to stay away from those sections that I cannot support and will, in turn, flame anyone who comes near my cooked food advice (okay, that was a joke). But I WILL start bashing anyone who starves themselves in the name of "detoxing" and put copious amount of water up their butts to the point that all their healthy bacterial flora and mucosal lining starts shedding. That has NO place on a forum for bodybuilding or health. Can you please point me to one omni bodybuilding site that has a raw section (there are raw food omnis)? How about one that condones fasts and detoxing? And I'm not talking about one or two posts, but entire threads.

 

On the other hand, we could just rename this forum and those who are actually interested in bodybuilding could go somewhere else. Maybe there should be a poll. Perhaps we're way off here and most members are not into bodybuilding after all. I haven't been to the other forum mentioned, but if some of you go please let me know so I can come with you.

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Here is my point of view:

 

The problem with the forum is not so much with raw food, or the lack of really strong lifters (btw, I am a long way off counting myself as one of those), it is the diversification that has drawn it a long way from it's original goal of being a bodybuilding forum. It is now a multi-facetted, general vegan forum, with slight emphasises on raw foodism, and training.

 

The problem for the uninitiated (both in terms of veganism and lifting) is that it is hard to find good information on either. I disagree with the raw food lifestyle on the whole, but for folk just converting to veganism, it is especially unsuitable. With regard to lifting, there is good advice available, but you have to look hard for it.

 

I think that Kon's idea of reclassifying the board is excellent. It is very confusing, and I don't think that I have ever been on a board with more sections. For instance, photos and videos could easily be combined into one section.

 

The reason why I post infrequently these days is that there isn't really anything of interest to me here. I am not a bodybuilder, I'm not into raw food and I am not American (I realise that this last bit is a generalisation, but the board is distinctly American, despite having members from other countries). I like to help out where I can with advice for newbies, but like on all other boards, you always get people asking the same questions, rather than searching through old topics. Questions like:

 

* How much protein should I eat?

* How often should I train?

* Free weights or machines?

* What's the best routine for fast gains?

 

Etc, etc, etc.......

 

What frustrates me is that people are always looking for the secret to massive gains. It's like the big strong guys all know this secret, but they keep it to themselves. There is no secret. Lift hard, eat alot and rest well. There is nothing else to it!

 

Anyway, I am digressing - in summary, I think VB needs to refocus it's efforts to either become a general vegan board, or to become more lifting orientated again.

 

Jonathan

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I think we're losing hold of the name...this is Vegan Bodybuilding and FITNESS. Not many different things encompass body building but fitness is something that has many differing views. Fit can be just trying to be reasonably healthy or trying to be a professional athlete. In terms of bodybuilding...everyone here knows how I can eat and the fact that I used to eat like that on a daily basis, and the fact that I was extremely big and strong a few years ago. I'm not gonna tell anyone that want to be a Bodybuilder to not eat as much as they can stomach but for the regular person that just wants to gain some mass I think eating like that can really be overdoing it...especially since the average person isn't prepared to train that hard yet and may never be able to burn a few thousand calories in one session at they gym.

As for athletes dieting muscle/weight away its a common thing for some power athletes(especially people making weight for wrestling, boxing, sprinters, distance runners, cyclists, gymnasts etc.) as well as endurance athletes and granted its not by any means healthy but fasting(not for cleansing purposes) or severely limiting calories is common amongst the worlds best athletes and granted it can be associated with eating disorders...it does have its place in performance. This is way different than cleansing and I think this does have its place in performing but no so much in becoming a healthier being.

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I just thought I would chime in with my two cents. I'm new here and I like this forum. I tend to lurk alot. I like reading everyone's workouts, routines, and diets for inspiration and to try to get ideas on what would work for me. I like posting my own workout blog as an online training journal. From what I've seen so far, people here tend to be really nice to new people and are very helpful. I haven't bothered looking at the raw food thread because it just doesn't interest me. I personallly don't think any changes are needed. That is all.

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its to be expected that newer members wont mind the current forum structure because they are already accepting of it when they chose to join and also have little knowledge of how it may have been in the past, so doing a poll would not really prove anything other than the obvious.

 

A forum structure that is designed to contain a ton of posts/threads with many seperate sections will obvsiously attract a userbase capable of providing such traffic, but with such traffic, it is expected that the ratio of good posts to not so good posts becomes weighted towards the not so good, and the good ones are spread far and in between.

 

It should also be noted that just because this is a forum which invites anyone to join, it does not necessarily mean people can talk about anything they please. This forum is run by moderators/admin, and they ultimately have the last say in things. They decide how it is run and what people can or can't do on it.

 

Robert may want to attract as many people that he can to the site, and he has the right to pursue that, but in my opinion I feel that this is careless on his part, and ultimately the forum will suffer for it. People should stop worrying about their post counts, and worry about the actual text that goes in them.

The web address is veganbodybuilding. I personally want to see the site focused towards this. It is what is expected when one sees such an address.

Changeing the forum wont remove the variety we currently have, there would still be places to post such threads, I just think the way it is now creates little focus if any since everything is fragmented to the limits.

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I am new also. I have been a poster on the raw forums mostly, but a bit everywhere else.

 

Besides giving you my life story, Ill just say raw foods lifestyle has helped me significantly feeling healthy. I lost a lot of weight and I have been slowly gainging it back being raw. This website has helped me because I consider myself a body builder. I dont want to get huge, but that doesnt mean I dont want to sculpt my body and become stronger.

 

The raw forum on this website has helped me question my beliefs in being raw. Which is a good thing. I went raw without a lot of knowledge except reading Raw Power, and then read a couple other books while being raw. After discovering this website, and the raw forum, it helped me see that maybe raw isnt the thing for me.

 

I still am doing research on what is right for ME, and the raw forum helped me figure that maybe being pure raw isnt right for me. But its a work in progress.

 

I say keep the raw forum going, but put a sticky "Before posting read this" with points debating cooked food vs raw food. And how to introduce more raw foods into your body without going all the way. And arguments against/for being completely raw.

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I've always used this forum to post my training results and get some pointers.

 

Raw Vs. Cooked Vs. Unprocessed Vs. Processed etc. is all personal preference. Just do what feels right. I prefer to eat mostly very simple unprocessed foods, raw or cooked. I like raw veggies and fruits better than I like them cooked. This is just how I feel though. I guess I just don't see why the raw forum is "bad" or "hurting our credibility". It has at least brought in a bunch of new members and cool people to this online community.

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