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Where does veganbodybuilding.com stand?


Zack
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Divide and conquer.

 

I think that like all forums, VBBF, veganfitness etc., people come and go, and most new people write a few posts and then tire of it quickly because of the effort and time involved-check the memberlists and the number of posts to confirm this. Every forum I've ever visited has only about 20 regular posters and the others are at best sporadic-this one is no exception. I think what keeps people on board is a sense of community-getting to know and like the other members. It is loyalty to this community that will keep people posting. If we start attacking each other it is lost.

 

As for the credibility of any information given here, everyone should take it with a grain of salt. Nobody here has claimed to be an expert and nobody's opinion should be given the authority of an expert on any subject. On a side note, a good book on the internet phenomena of amateur opinion taking over is "The Cult of the Amateur" by Andrew Keen. It's a truly eye-opening book and puts a lot of perspective on how things read on the internet should be interpreted.

 

Ciao

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It's funny because certain people here keep saying they don't have a problem with the raw foods section, yet they keep bringing it up in such a fashion that would have one to believe that they are venting about it.... the raw section is only one forum out of thirty forums here, personaly I don't think it's the section per se, I think it's certain people having an issue with it and venting in this post and in that section

 

The raw food section is very unconventional and some of the stuff you may see in it will fly in the face of all science as I know all too well, so that's why having a raw section here was a good idea because like minded people could share thoughts that would cause fights anywhere else, sadly I've seen it so many times, all the non raw forums that have a raw section get into trouble because you always get a small group of non raw people that choose to take things the wrong way and feel the need to be the defenders of science/cooked food and set up camp and doubt and debate various posts, raw individuals and it's easy to do because yes our lifestyle is "alternative" and at times we can be up for much ridicule, but that's why it's the raw food section, I mean isn't this the one of the reasons why this forum is a vegan forum, so like minded vegans can share and get active without the ridicule from non like minded people, I'm not saying that people can't question the raw lifestyle, I'm just saying that we all must try to understand it can be pretty hard to make sense of it all at the best of times, so an open mind and willingness to think well outside the box is much needed!!!

 

People ask for "proof" well why do you think I've posted so many pics and videos here over the years, that's all the "proof" I have and still certain people aren't happy or satisfied, infact, I've posted so many pics of myself over the years that I no longer feel the need to prove on demand anymore, infact I even feel slightly resentful when asked to "prove on demand" because I burnt myself out all those years ago so now the up to date pics/vids I share now I share out of fun, I'm doing stuff now that I couldn't do on cooked food and if you like it or not that's my reality and no one can take that away from me, proof or not.

 

As far as the personal digs aimed at me by a couple of individuals here, I'd like to say that it's been a huge compliment that you guys doubt me so agressivley and with such passion and thanks again for posting your opinions and proving me right in everyway, plus, you really don't know me like that, trust me!!!.... I think that type of behaviour is human nature though, after all the meat eaters fight the vegans and the vegans fight the raw vegans and the raw vegans fight the fruitarians and the fruitarians shadow box....

 

Anyway I'm out, this topic is done as far as I'm concerned.

Edited by Bigbwii
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If you don't like alternative and/or new ideas how did you come to the very alternative diet you consume

 

When I give advice, I base it on evidence. When I discuss new ideas that are opinion-only, I state that.

 

 

So why is it so wrong when other people do the same?

 

You have your approach and life experience and I have mine, now if mine doesn't match yours or mine didn't work for you does that mean it's wrong and your way is right!

 

Heck no, it simply means we need to be accepting of each other and live and let live, I've never told anyone to do as I do and I will generally start off a post with "in my opinion" or "in my experience" or I will tell people to "do what works for them" because I know how personal the raw lifestyle is.

 

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Hi people... I'm new here so I wanted to kind of give another newcomer's perspective.

 

I first came to this forum from a link that was posted over at the veganfreaks.net/forum. I don't remember what it was about but that's not important. But the important thing (to me anyway) was that I was pleasantly suprised by the diversity here. I was expecting the average bodybuilding forum with all kinds of *science* advice from muscle-heads.

 

That's not at all what I was looking for because in my opinion - more muscle does not equal better health. And that's what I'm always looking for - optimum health.

 

From my perspective, in terms of optimum health - I think raw food is a very good choice. I know this isn't a debate about raw food / cooked food, but honestly how could anyone argue and / or bash anyone for choosing this life style?? It's not like they're forcing it on anyone. Just like we're not forcing the vegan lifestlye on anyone, yet we hate it when someone bashes us for chosing it.

 

I think certain users here are awfully closed minded - and if that's you - you shouldn't be on an internet forum ANYWHERE. Because if you constantly feel the need to debate and argue people - you are spending WAY too much negative energy, in my opinion.

 

I think some of you just need to relax and take this forum for what it is. It's a great forum for support / advice for those looking for information regarding *vegan* bodybuilding and fitness on all levels.

 

Robert - I say don't change a thing... But that's just the opinion of a non-expert newbie...

 

@ Bigbwii you look great and obviously what you're doing is working for YOU so keep on doing what you're doing and don't worry about people questioning your life style (Something tells me I didn't need to tell you that though...).

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If you don't like alternative and/or new ideas how did you come to the very alternative diet you consume

 

When I give advice, I base it on evidence. When I discuss new ideas that are opinion-only, I state that.

 

 

So why is it so wrong when other people do the same?

 

You have your approach and life experience and I have mine, now if mine doesn't match yours or mine didn't work for you does that mean it's wrong and your way is right!

 

Heck no, it simply means we need to be accepting of each other and live and let live, I've never told anyone to do as I do and I will generally start off a post with "in my opinion" or "in my experience" or I will tell people to "do what works for them" because I know how personal the raw lifestyle is.

 

 

I've never said that when others give advice based on evidence, that it's wrong. I don't get into "right or wrong" but I do ask that people be responsible in their advice, especially when it's obvious that some posters are very young and impressionable and obviously doing a lot of searching - not exactly the mindset for sifting through solid vs. questionable advice.

 

I've never had a problem with most of your posts as I think you usually end them with a statement that your lifestyle works for you and it's very personal. I don't "get" fruitarianism and therefore don't debate fruitarianism. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with all the nutritional advice given by individuals. Regardless of whether you're omni, vegan, raw or whatever, there are certain human nutritional requirements we all have. I'm just someone who feels the need to fill in holes and correct what I see as misinformation when I see it on a forum. I see that as responsibility towards fellow members regardless of freedom of speech and beliefs.

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Hi people... I'm new here so I wanted to kind of give another newcomer's perspective.

 

I first came to this forum from a link that was posted over at the veganfreaks.net/forum. I don't remember what it was about but that's not important. But the important thing (to me anyway) was that I was pleasantly suprised by the diversity here. I was expecting the average bodybuilding forum with all kinds of *science* advice from muscle-heads.

 

That's not at all what I was looking for because in my opinion - more muscle does not equal better health. And that's what I'm always looking for - optimum health.

 

From my perspective, in terms of optimum health - I think raw food is a very good choice. I know this isn't a debate about raw food / cooked food, but honestly how could anyone argue and / or bash anyone for choosing this life style?? It's not like they're forcing it on anyone. Just like we're not forcing the vegan lifestlye on anyone, yet we hate it when someone bashes us for chosing it.

 

I think certain users here are awfully closed minded - and if that's you - you shouldn't be on an internet forum ANYWHERE. Because if you constantly feel the need to debate and argue people - you are spending WAY too much negative energy, in my opinion.

 

I think some of you just need to relax and take this forum for what it is. It's a great forum for support / advice for those looking for information regarding *vegan* bodybuilding and fitness on all levels.

 

Robert - I say don't change a thing... But that's just the opinion of a non-expert newbie...

 

@ Bigbwii you look great and obviously what you're doing is working for YOU so keep on doing what you're doing and don't worry about people questioning your life style (Something tells me I didn't need to tell you that though...).

 

Great stuff...

 

I think it just proves that people are here for different reasons and not just to be "muscle heads" or to lift the most weight, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with wanting to be a muscle head, body builder or power lifter but just don't bully others because they don't share that need, personly I really don't care what people say about this forum, if it's not deemed "hardcore" enough by the powers that be well so be it...work on being hardcore yourself, be the example

 

And for those that say that they don't get any relevant info or don't get what they need from here anymore , you need to make it happen yourself and post it here for others to enjoy, consistantly contribute articles, pics, videos of your workouts, outdoor fitness activities, etc, etc and make this place what you want it to be instead of complaining about it and debating.

 

Right I really am done now....honest

Edited by Bigbwii
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If you don't like alternative and/or new ideas how did you come to the very alternative diet you consume

 

When I give advice, I base it on evidence. When I discuss new ideas that are opinion-only, I state that.

 

 

So why is it so wrong when other people do the same?

 

You have your approach and life experience and I have mine, now if mine doesn't match yours or mine didn't work for you does that mean it's wrong and your way is right!

 

Heck no, it simply means we need to be accepting of each other and live and let live, I've never told anyone to do as I do and I will generally start off a post with "in my opinion" or "in my experience" or I will tell people to "do what works for them" because I know how personal the raw lifestyle is.

 

 

I've never said that when others give advice based on evidence, that it's wrong. I don't get into "right or wrong" but I do ask that people be responsible in their advice, especially when it's obvious that some posters are very young and impressionable and obviously doing a lot of searching - not exactly the mindset for sifting through solid vs. questionable advice.

 

I've never had a problem with most of your posts as I think you usually end them with a statement that your lifestyle works for you and it's very personal. I don't "get" fruitarianism and therefore don't debate fruitarianism. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with all the nutritional advice given by individuals. Regardless of whether you're omni, vegan, raw or whatever, there are certain human nutritional requirements we all have. I'm just someone who feels the need to fill in holes and correct what I see as misinformation when I see it on a forum. I see that as responsibility towards fellow members regardless of freedom of speech and beliefs.

 

Cool to tell you the truth...I really couldn't care less if you or anybody agrees with my views or not because your not me, so I don't expect you too, I just think it's sad that certain people here just cannot agree to diss-agree about types of activities or what they eat and co-exist....

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P.S.

 

I'm not ignoring this thread, it just takes a lot of time to read all 4 pages before I can appropriately respond and I just haven't read it yet. I'm making some quick posts in other sections as I'm working on some other online projects too.

 

I'll get to it sometime in the near future.

 

Thanks.

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Raw food section is for those who are interested in a raw diet. People can ask for the experience of other members and that's cool. Noone forces anyone to follow any diet. to say that raw food section harms the forum sounds completely ridiculous. If you think raw is bullshit, then don't do it. But let others to ask what they want from members who have some experience of it.

 

When i signed up in the forum, i did it because it's more about health-nutrition-fitness and unconventional attitudes about nutrition. Plus i'm a vegan of course (for health reasons). I'm not interested in becoming a bodybuilder. all i want is to improve my body becoming fitter and i really like people who have something to say about their experience on a raw diet.

 

 

You don't like it, you don't do it. Simple as that!

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Yeah Josh...I think you went too far. Especially since your trying to gain and you still don't look as fit, not nearly as strong in the gym or a big as bigwii.

 

Hey Potter,

 

It's unfortunate that this turned into somewhat of a personal discussion instead of a general discussion.

 

That being said, sorry I'm not 200 pounds and dry to the bone YET. I've only gained 45 pounds of mass in a year, most of it being muscle. What a failure I am .

 

In fact, I'm going to be have a before and after feature on the web soon, with before and after pics, and detailing the science and logic behind what I did to achieve such great results, and still achieve them. Maybe some people here could learn a thing or two when that goes up. Until then, keep your cool.

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Okay DV. You are right. We are finally at a point where we both accept the idea that the other one will not change his/her believes after a debate.

The idea only to give advice when it is evidence-based beyond personal experience would make almost impossible to give any advice on rawfood. So that is IMO not the way it works. "IMO" is btw one of those expressions I use very often in my posts especially when I give advice. I agree with you that humans have nutritional requirements but I doubt that the RDAs etc. are correct especially when it comes to rawfood. I also give second opinions and corrections when I think it is necessary because of misinformation or insufficient information.

So as you said we have many things in common: We both have great confidence in the (scientific) systems we believe to be correct and are compassionate in trying to give people the advice that we think will help them.

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work on being hardcore yourself, be the example

 

And for those that say that they don't get any relevant info or don't get what they need from here anymore , you need to make it happen yourself and post it here for others to enjoy, consistantly contribute articles, pics, videos of your workouts, outdoor fitness activities, etc, etc and make this place what you want it to be instead of complaining about it and debating.

 

I agree with these great points.

 

From personal experience on other forums, I've seen how an influx of new members actually hurts the quality of indepth discussions as members often times don't have the necessary experience to be able to add more to it.

Most new members come to forums as a means to recieve help and insights from its userbase, for example, I joined this forum because I was interested in bodybuilding and such and figured I'd be able to slowly absorb any insights little by little simply by being around others interested in the same thing. I had nothing to offer on the subject, and I still don't have much, but thats fine because I now have better judgement on things and am more aware about bodybuilding and stuff.

Alot of the learning process requires the individual to actively perform and actualize it, otherwise it is just words in your head which have no meaning.

I feel that by diversifying the forum extensively, it can cause a watered down effect where there is a larger userbase of people who may not have the capacity to provide guidance to others (I don't consider myself being capable of guiding others in regards to bodybuilding), and each member may be searching for different things which fragments the focus for indepth discussions.

 

One thing which I've seen done on another forum was monthly challenges where people would dissect a specific thing and offer up all their findings on it.. It was great, and may actually be a good thing for this community, but when the forum grew, the participation in these challenges dwindled because there were less individuals with the experience and patience to add to the discussion.

There was also the perspective from people that why should they give their input when the chance is slim that anyone else will give theres as well, and hence there was a downward energy to it.

With a more focused community, it could be an upwards energy by giving people the feeling that everyone is interested in what you have to say and you are also interested in what they have to say.. and hence everyone is there to serve each other on their journey, but if everyone is going in different directions or has no direction at all, you feel like maybe what you post might not help anyone.

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Hey Potter,

 

It's unfortunate that this turned into somewhat of a personal discussion instead of a general discussion.

Is that your way of saying: "Sorry Bigbwii! I went too far and I apologize"? Maybe my English is too bad to find the "sorry" in your post.

Btw: Gaining 45 pounds starting from 130 pounds BW should have taught you to have respect for others training hard to achieve their goals. Your post was full of disrespect and that is not what vbb&f is about IMO.

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Wow, I've been following this thread and it's kind of surreal. I thought the raw foodies and the cooked foodies only warred in my imagination. Raw foodists would probably see me as an enemy of enzymes.

 

Is there actually a bad perception of this board by a lot of people, or is it just a few who have made it seem overblown?

 

I agree that it's important that there be room for questioning of beliefs, whether it's around cooked or raw foods. I personally grow a little weary when things like detoxing and low to no protein are discussed without any sort of... I don't know, skepticism? Sober second look? And I think that this thread has degenerated a bit into a weird personal fight... and that's definitely not good for the forum.

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FYI if anyone is wondering why I haven't "said anything" or "jumped in" or whatever, it is because I haven't read anything here yet.

 

I was out of town for 4 days, and now I'm working 12-15 hours a day and everyday to pull off a huge event. I will get to it sometime soon as I know many of you are anticipating some sort of format change in the forum.

 

I appreciate everyone here and please respect that I have very little free time these days and I'll read things and make changes when I get the opportunity.

 

If you are interesting in assisting with my major projecd in some way, please let me know. I'm sure I can find tasks to take on.

 

www.veganholidayfestival.com is what I'm up to, as well as a West Coast to East Coast Speaking tour. I leave town again in a few days.

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Lets keep it civil and on point with the discussion guys and gals

 

We are discussing the future of this forum and the direction to which it is going. I have talked to Robert about this numerous times. He has said he likes that the forum has become more of a general community based around veganism and fitness instead of being focused on one small niche relating to bodybuilding. That is all I will say, Robert will be on soon with his response. I will let him explain his goals and direction for this site in his own words. Ciao!

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Hey Potter,

 

It's unfortunate that this turned into somewhat of a personal discussion instead of a general discussion.

Is that your way of saying: "Sorry Bigbwii! I went too far and I apologize"? Maybe my English is too bad to find the "sorry" in your post.

Btw: Gaining 45 pounds starting from 130 pounds BW should have taught you to have respect for others training hard to achieve their goals. Your post was full of disrespect and that is not what vbb&f is about IMO.

 

Hey flanders77...you da man! yeah, things went way to far but to me it's a compliment to have people doubt my efforts, to have it said that what I'm doing cannot be done and I've already done it is pretty darn awesome or that I must be lying about how I get my "muscle mass" speaks volume for my training and fruitarianism!!!

 

So no need to apologize....

 

Thanks guys...

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Josh...you have done a lot and I commend you for your progress but remember you aren't 30 years old and building muscle isn't as hard when your still a teenager and growing. Plus you weren't exactly scrony...you had weight on you. And if your gains weren't attatched so closely to your age and hormones you would be considerably stronger than you are now from gaining 40lbs of lean muscle. Try gaining 40lbs of muscle when your 40yrs old...the gains in the gym will be way more drastic if you could manage to do that. Back to your old weight it wasn't muscle but still...people with fat to gain muscle easier than people that are extremely thin to begin with. I recognize this in myself. If I gave up cycling I can put on 20lbs of muscle in less than 3 months just because I've carried a lot of weight before and I'm still pretty young. I won't be able to do that when I'm in my 30s. Bigwii is a great athlete with endurance, muscle, a good build and he's not a kid anymore. Gaining muscle beyond thirty is way harder than doing it before you make 20. You look great and your gonna get far but you aren't there yet and you've gotta recognize that some people journeys are harder than others. This is why I respect really thin people that make gains much more than people like myself who was basically born to be big and strong. You were a muscular kid that just never broke out of his shell until now.

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I've been an active forum member at coolrunning.com for over five years now. One observation that I've made in all that time is that the section of the forum that ignites the most passionate debates is the food/nurtition section. People just get worked up by discussions of what to eat and what other people eat (and we know this as vegans, right?) more than any other topic.

 

Obviously everyone is entitled to their opinion and to do what they think is best for themselves; I'm sure we all agree on that. But we still get ticked off when we see bad advice being given. We get upset when we see others using an epistomological system different from our own to determine what is best to eat. Add to that the fact that internet discussions tend to distort and exaggerate people's true beliefs and feelings, and you've got a situation where differences of opinion will escalate into personal fights and name calling.

 

Anyways, by virtue of the fact that we're a forum about veganism and fitness we need to have a space to discuss nutrition. I tend to think that an environment where people respect other's opinions and feel safe to post their own is the best environment for this kind of discussion. The problem is that once a particular approach becomes the norm (or appears to be the norm), some people outside that norm will feel less safe posting their disagreements with it. By having raw food as a stand alone section, we are encouraging raw foodism to be the norm in that particular sub-forum. If we didn't have a raw section, I would suspect that the norm would swing right over to the other side and some raw foodists would feel less comfortable posting their opinions (for example, I think it would be fair to say that VFF tends to have a fairly anti-raw norm).

 

My point being, anytime we change around the number and nature of sub-forums it will affect the culture of the board and some people will be unhappy about it. Havingsaid that, I feel that the fewer sub-forums on the site, the better. I would rather read through three or four high activity sub-forums, rather than seven sub-forums with one new post each. I don't have any suggestions for the best way to structure this.

 

I believe that VBBF has a great membership that is more respectful and encouraging than any other forum I've been a member of. A high turnover of new members is normal and nothing to be worried about. Personally, the only thing that bothers me is the occasional non-vegans joining the forums. Not that we should have some kind of vegan-ness test, but if enough non-vegan members join there is the potential for this forum to become a vegan/vegetarian/pescetarian/omni bodybuilding forum. If you've ever posted on veggieboards.com, you have an idea how frustrating that can be. Now I know that the few non-vegans who join don't generally stay long, so it's probably not something to worry about too much. But I wanted to point out that having an open membership as we do means that the culture of the forum as a whole will drift around if left alone.

 

OK, this post is getting way too long and rambling. I'm not sure if I've said anything useful here!

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Josh...you have done a lot and I commend you for your progress but remember you aren't 30 years old and building muscle isn't as hard when your still a teenager and growing. Plus you weren't exactly scrony...you had weight on you. And if your gains weren't attatched so closely to your age and hormones you would be considerably stronger than you are now from gaining 40lbs of lean muscle. Try gaining 40lbs of muscle when your 40yrs old...the gains in the gym will be way more drastic if you could manage to do that. Back to your old weight it wasn't muscle but still...people with fat to gain muscle easier than people that are extremely thin to begin with. I recognize this in myself. If I gave up cycling I can put on 20lbs of muscle in less than 3 months just because I've carried a lot of weight before and I'm still pretty young. I won't be able to do that when I'm in my 30s. Bigwii is a great athlete with endurance, muscle, a good build and he's not a kid anymore. Gaining muscle beyond thirty is way harder than doing it before you make 20. You look great and your gonna get far but you aren't there yet and you've gotta recognize that some people journeys are harder than others. This is why I respect really thin people that make gains much more than people like myself who was basically born to be big and strong. You were a muscular kid that just never broke out of his shell until now.

 

Darn...Veganpotter, you made me realise I'm nearly 40....

 

Keep on keeping on man!

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