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Where does veganbodybuilding.com stand?


Zack
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Plus you weren't exactly scrony...you had weight on you.

 

Really??? Did you know me when I was 115 pounds and not eating and partying all weekend? Wow, maybe I missed you in the NY rave scene... wait till you see the before and after pics, you'll be in for a surprise!

 

You were a muscular kid that just never broke out of his shell until now.

I guess I'll take this as a compliment, even though it's completely untrue.

 

Bigwii is a great athlete with endurance, muscle, a good build and he's not a kid anymore.

Bigbwii is okay for a guy who just eats fruit. I don't mean to unduly bash him, I'm just being honest about what I observe. I'm not trying to be a flamer, but I don't sugar coat things either, I'm callin it like I see it. I just wish he was honest about how he gained his mass and about nutrition.

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uot;]

Bigwii is a great athlete with endurance, muscle, a good build and he's not a kid anymore.

Bigbwii is okay for a guy who just eats fruit. I don't mean to unduly bash him, I'm just being honest about what I observe. I'm not trying to be a flamer, but I don't sugar coat things either, I'm callin it like I see it. I just wish he was honest about how he gained his mass and about nutrition.

 

More power to you!

 

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I don't think I've ever seen anything quite like this.

 

Seriously guys... this "I'm bigger than you," "you're not strong enough" stuff is so unnecessary and unflattering. I mean, if there's stuff to discuss then it should be discussed (as some people have done quite nicely) but it's not to anyone's benefit for it to be so personal.

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Ok I've been quiet for a while.

 

My opinions.

 

I think there is misinformation in the raw section, and also other parts but I also think there are too many people here that use it, we cannot cater to just a few. Diversity is one reason this forum is good. I just think that information going around she be reasonably true, opinions are not bad, but if that's all they are, with no evidence, opinions can't be great advice.

 

I think that some constructive things should be done, like kon said, mostly rearranging the forums and downsizing.

 

We have a large diversity of athletes and people here, which is good, but doesn't fit in with the name of the site. I do realize it says fitness, but most people judge it based off the bodybuilding part. At the same time, it's not practical to ask rob to change the domain name, when he already has things set up so much. Like potter said, we're losing hold of the name.

 

I don't think the forum is very well respected outside of our community, and I don't see as many new active members lately.

 

This thread was started to see if we could make any constructive changes in the direction of VBB, not to get into flame wars.

 

If you have anything constructive to add, please do, but keep the flames in check please.

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Okay, time to chime in for a bit here...

 

I think that what some people are getting at is that there's a need for a "serious" vegan bodybuilding/general lifting site that focuses on proper training, nutrition (needed to dispel myths surrounding vegan lifting), and generally giving those who are curious something to aspire toward rather than have a hodgepodge site that has a little of everything but not enough of any topic to be a solid resource. It's a difficult line to walk, though - sites often try to be everything to everyone, and in that vein it is easy to water down the most important info in having a wide range of details. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hearing the worry about what other people perceive this board as, I envision that's the root of such perception in that we don't have a panel of "experts" that are here to always give guidance, we have a lot of odd topics that take nutrition in different directions (which is confusing to new and potential vegans alike), and a great percentage of posters here are relative newcomers to training, not just lifting but all types of fitness training.

 

When wanting to give outsiders a positive impression that lasts, it can definitely be tougher with a wide range of topics/training discussions and not much detail about each one, and the different opinions/squabbles about nutrition can be a turnoff to those who are interested yet hesitant (if I was considering going vegan and saw the raw vs. cooked debates and the post calling grains "poison" I'd be pretty turned off by it, or at the least, extremely confused.) Perhaps there needs to be more clarification to smooth things out - a way to let newcomers know that much of what is said here is opinion and not necessarily fact, so that there's no confusion on people who are first-timers checking the site out. Sometimes a bit of a caveat can go a long way in letting people know that it is more of a personal experience discussion than one based entirely on known fact, which in turn takes the heat off those who are making statements from being "liable" for the reactions of those who choose to take their advice. Much like when I give training recommendations - I always try to make sure that anyone I reply to knows that what I say is what worked for me, not that it in turn is going to work for them because that'd be flat-out irresponsible. Same for diet - general advice, no worries, but when we get into factions off the beaten path of general vegan eating, I think that things need to be kept in perspective that this is not science and does not have a guide to prove everything, that it's all personal experience and perhaps a bit of science thrown in for good measure, but it isn't the gospel of what is best, healthiest, etc. Remember, this is a forum for being VEGAN first and foremost - anything above and beyond that is secondary to the topic of being vegan and being fit, and personal opinions are just opinions. There's no need to try to convince anyone of anything - if someone is interested, they'll want to dig deeper without being preached to about the benefits of such-and-such over other vegan diets. And if we're going to give advice, let it be known the nature of it being primarily personal experience over being necessarily solid fact. We have to keep in mind, what works for us may not work for others, and for some it may be downright dangerous to give advice on nutrition or training topics without really knowing how the person will respond to it. Heck, I won't even give advice on how to start squatting properly until I know someone here has already done a bit of reserach on form, because I don't want to be the one that gives them the ammo with which they can get hurt from the get-go. I don't know everyone's story, so I'm always cautious about what I say and how I say it. If we can keep that attitude here about keeping opinion as opinion and separate from general fact, we'll all get along just fine and won't have to worry as much about how others perceive us and this site. But remember, if you put yourself in the spotlight and give lots of advice, be warned that if you can't back it up with proof other than what it did for you, then it's personal experience and opinion, nothing more.

 

I know that this comes back to the Raw forum a lot for discussion, but let me say this - if you can go raw and do well with it, fantastic, and more power to you. I think it's a fine part for having at the site - it answers a lot of questions, no doubt about it, and helps satisfy the curiosity of what it's all about. But, I do believe that as has been stated, not keeping things in balance for newcomers can be a bad idea - not encouraging people to pay attention to intake of calories, nutrient ratios, vitamins, etc. could eventually result in something bad happening to someone who could easily claim "That's what I was told - I don't need to worry about those things". Again, we need to be responsible in separating fact from opinion - if someone in the Raw forum who has been successful with the diet for a long stretch wants to give dietary advice to a newly-raw person, that's excellent - nobody better to learn from than one who has been there. However, I doubt that even the most experienced ones dove in headfirst and threw caution to the wind about all standard worries and aspects about proper nutrition. Ease people into it, be it in the Raw forum or general nutrition - it's better to be on the side of caution and have someone find out well enough if something will be good for them than to chance things turning south in a hurry if it isn't an ideal match. Again, this goes for anything here nutrition-related, not just the Raw stuff but everything. Okay, I'm rambling a lot and losing my train of thought, so let me wrap this on up...

 

Perhaps a good idea would be to accumulate a host of resident "experts" that we can enlist from other areas to help contribute more to give better validity to the site for the sake of both newcomers and to expand knowledge of old-timers alike. I'd be more than happy to see someone like Jack Norris come here to help out with nutrition advice, or to see other people who are competitive BBers (I know Robert is a busy guy, so let's get others in on this, too!), give more advice on contest diets, training, etc. A lot of what happens here is that a lot of the forums are a free-for-all for advice and suggestions, with different people from different areas chiming in on occasion but without consistency. Having someone who stops in daily or weekly who is designated to taking care of a particular forum and who is obviously at the top of their field would be an amazing thing - it would keep the opinions in check and give sound, credible advice based on fact (or, as close to fact as we're going to get), and thus confusion and debate over what is "truly the best" would be reduced or eliminated. This is in part why I have other forums that I visit for training as well - one in particular is frequented by a great deal of professional strongman competitors, and when they talk training, I listen. I know a lot of it is opinion, but when someone has reached the pinnacle of their field, they obviously have to know a great deal about it. Not to mention there are physicians there who answer medical questions, nutritionists who are happy to help with dietary concerns, etc. It quickly becomes known who plays what role and who is giving opinion from personal experience vs. those who are stating fact. And yes, there are still debates, but they're handled rationally and people know when to admit that what they're stating is opinion/personal experience rather than something that'll ring true for everyone. This isn't always a feasible way to go, but it's one of those things to consider for making a board that's a haven for information of all types coming from credible sources as well as opinions from others that are up for discusison. Just a thought - it may not be an option, but it's something to consider if this is to be a board that is known as THE resource for vegan bodybuilding and fitness, where people will go as their first source of information knowing that it'll be fair and even and not just a smattering of people with varying opinions trying to say that their way is the best one.

 

Okay, I could rant and ramble much more, but I'll leave it at this for a few things to say on this discussion.

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First and foremost I'll admit that I haven't really read any of the posts in their entirety other than what VeganEssentials just wrote. It looked really long and thought out and he's a friend of mine so I figured I'd take a look. I skimmed a bit here and there since some people sent PMs about this thread.

 

I worked 14 hours without a break, went to the gym and just got home. It's already midnight so I won't be here long.

 

There are a lot of great points that VE addressed. I've been looking for "experts" to invite to the forum. I am also looking for some to write articles for the main website. I know Jack Norris and people like that who are professionals.

 

Perhaps I even need to pay some experts to play a role on the main website and forum. I have a National Speaking tour so I'm meeting up with these experts on a regular basis. I'll contact some soon and see what is possible.

 

I know that we have lots and lots of sections on here, more than most. That was mainly to keep things in very detailed sections so topics would be easy to find.

 

The forum changed a lot lately and it primarly changed as I changed. I went from Bodybuilder to mainstream vegan athlete/event organizer, speaker, etc.

 

I really think the forum followed my own interests and my own direction. So that could easily be changed and I can condense the forum if that is what the community wishes.

 

As far as reputation goes. I used to stress about that all the time. Now I don't. We were known as probably the friendliest vegan forum online anywhere. Now I don't know what we're known as and it really doesn't bother me. It should, but I'm busy every waking moment now organizing events that are life-changing for many people. That is just where my energy is right now.

 

In time I should be able to read through more of the suggestions, complaints, comments and opinions of the online community here and then I can make appropriate changes.

 

I see this as a positive thread, not a negative one, because I believe positive change will come from it.

 

Thanks for all your input everyone.

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Perhaps there needs to be more clarification to smooth things out - a way to let newcomers know that much of what is said here is opinion and not necessarily fact, so that there's no confusion on people who are first-timers checking the site out.

That's a good idea. I could update the main site, so that when you click on 'Forums', it takes you to a disclaimer type page, where it explains things like that. Then new members would be aware that there are going to be differing opinions on certain subjects, and that none of them in particular will represent 'vegan bodybuilding & fitness' as such.

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Perhaps there needs to be more clarification to smooth things out - a way to let newcomers know that much of what is said here is opinion and not necessarily fact, so that there's no confusion on people who are first-timers checking the site out.

That's a good idea. I could update the main site, so that when you click on 'Forums', it takes you to a disclaimer type page, where it explains things like that. Then new members would be aware that there are going to be differing opinions on certain subjects, and that none of them in particular will represent 'vegan bodybuilding & fitness' as such.

 

Maybe stickies in the individual sub-forums would be more useful? I think people would tend to forget what they read the very first time they entered the forums, but if there is a thread that's always there written by an expert on the topic, they'll be more likely to read it when they're confused by mixed messages from other posters.

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Maybe stickies in the individual sub-forums would be more useful? I think people would tend to forget what they read the very first time they entered the forums, but if there is a thread that's always there written by an expert on the topic, they'll be more likely to read it when they're confused by mixed messages from other posters.

 

I thought about that, but for the same reason, I don't think stickies get read! Yeah maybe that would also be a good idea too, just to try to get people to think that way

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Okay, time to chime in for a bit here...

 

I think that what some people are getting at is that there's a need for a "serious" vegan bodybuilding/general lifting site that focuses on proper training, nutrition (needed to dispel myths surrounding vegan lifting), and generally giving those who are curious something to aspire toward rather than have a hodgepodge site that has a little of everything but not enough of any topic to be a solid resource. It's a difficult line to walk, though - sites often try to be everything to everyone, and in that vein it is easy to water down the most important info in having a wide range of details. Correct me if I'm wrong, but hearing the worry about what other people perceive this board as, I envision that's the root of such perception in that we don't have a panel of "experts" that are here to always give guidance, we have a lot of odd topics that take nutrition in different directions (which is confusing to new and potential vegans alike), and a great percentage of posters here are relative newcomers to training, not just lifting but all types of fitness training.

 

When wanting to give outsiders a positive impression that lasts, it can definitely be tougher with a wide range of topics/training discussions and not much detail about each one, and the different opinions/squabbles about nutrition can be a turnoff to those who are interested yet hesitant (if I was considering going vegan and saw the raw vs. cooked debates and the post calling grains "poison" I'd be pretty turned off by it, or at the least, extremely confused.) Perhaps there needs to be more clarification to smooth things out - a way to let newcomers know that much of what is said here is opinion and not necessarily fact, so that there's no confusion on people who are first-timers checking the site out. Sometimes a bit of a caveat can go a long way in letting people know that it is more of a personal experience discussion than one based entirely on known fact, which in turn takes the heat off those who are making statements from being "liable" for the reactions of those who choose to take their advice. Much like when I give training recommendations - I always try to make sure that anyone I reply to knows that what I say is what worked for me, not that it in turn is going to work for them because that'd be flat-out irresponsible. Same for diet - general advice, no worries, but when we get into factions off the beaten path of general vegan eating, I think that things need to be kept in perspective that this is not science and does not have a guide to prove everything, that it's all personal experience and perhaps a bit of science thrown in for good measure, but it isn't the gospel of what is best, healthiest, etc. Remember, this is a forum for being VEGAN first and foremost - anything above and beyond that is secondary to the topic of being vegan and being fit, and personal opinions are just opinions. There's no need to try to convince anyone of anything - if someone is interested, they'll want to dig deeper without being preached to about the benefits of such-and-such over other vegan diets. And if we're going to give advice, let it be known the nature of it being primarily personal experience over being necessarily solid fact. We have to keep in mind, what works for us may not work for others, and for some it may be downright dangerous to give advice on nutrition or training topics without really knowing how the person will respond to it. Heck, I won't even give advice on how to start squatting properly until I know someone here has already done a bit of reserach on form, because I don't want to be the one that gives them the ammo with which they can get hurt from the get-go. I don't know everyone's story, so I'm always cautious about what I say and how I say it. If we can keep that attitude here about keeping opinion as opinion and separate from general fact, we'll all get along just fine and won't have to worry as much about how others perceive us and this site. But remember, if you put yourself in the spotlight and give lots of advice, be warned that if you can't back it up with proof other than what it did for you, then it's personal experience and opinion, nothing more.

 

I know that this comes back to the Raw forum a lot for discussion, but let me say this - if you can go raw and do well with it, fantastic, and more power to you. I think it's a fine part for having at the site - it answers a lot of questions, no doubt about it, and helps satisfy the curiosity of what it's all about. But, I do believe that as has been stated, not keeping things in balance for newcomers can be a bad idea - not encouraging people to pay attention to intake of calories, nutrient ratios, vitamins, etc. could eventually result in something bad happening to someone who could easily claim "That's what I was told - I don't need to worry about those things". Again, we need to be responsible in separating fact from opinion - if someone in the Raw forum who has been successful with the diet for a long stretch wants to give dietary advice to a newly-raw person, that's excellent - nobody better to learn from than one who has been there. However, I doubt that even the most experienced ones dove in headfirst and threw caution to the wind about all standard worries and aspects about proper nutrition. Ease people into it, be it in the Raw forum or general nutrition - it's better to be on the side of caution and have someone find out well enough if something will be good for them than to chance things turning south in a hurry if it isn't an ideal match. Again, this goes for anything here nutrition-related, not just the Raw stuff but everything. Okay, I'm rambling a lot and losing my train of thought, so let me wrap this on up...

 

Perhaps a good idea would be to accumulate a host of resident "experts" that we can enlist from other areas to help contribute more to give better validity to the site for the sake of both newcomers and to expand knowledge of old-timers alike. I'd be more than happy to see someone like Jack Norris come here to help out with nutrition advice, or to see other people who are competitive BBers (I know Robert is a busy guy, so let's get others in on this, too!), give more advice on contest diets, training, etc. A lot of what happens here is that a lot of the forums are a free-for-all for advice and suggestions, with different people from different areas chiming in on occasion but without consistency. Having someone who stops in daily or weekly who is designated to taking care of a particular forum and who is obviously at the top of their field would be an amazing thing - it would keep the opinions in check and give sound, credible advice based on fact (or, as close to fact as we're going to get), and thus confusion and debate over what is "truly the best" would be reduced or eliminated. This is in part why I have other forums that I visit for training as well - one in particular is frequented by a great deal of professional strongman competitors, and when they talk training, I listen. I know a lot of it is opinion, but when someone has reached the pinnacle of their field, they obviously have to know a great deal about it. Not to mention there are physicians there who answer medical questions, nutritionists who are happy to help with dietary concerns, etc. It quickly becomes known who plays what role and who is giving opinion from personal experience vs. those who are stating fact. And yes, there are still debates, but they're handled rationally and people know when to admit that what they're stating is opinion/personal experience rather than something that'll ring true for everyone. This isn't always a feasible way to go, but it's one of those things to consider for making a board that's a haven for information of all types coming from credible sources as well as opinions from others that are up for discusison. Just a thought - it may not be an option, but it's something to consider if this is to be a board that is known as THE resource for vegan bodybuilding and fitness, where people will go as their first source of information knowing that it'll be fair and even and not just a smattering of people with varying opinions trying to say that their way is the best one.

 

Okay, I could rant and ramble much more, but I'll leave it at this for a few things to say on this discussion.

 

Thanks for posting VE....I can see your point of view and totally understand where your coming from.

 

As far as the raw food section I agree with you, which is why I personally don't try to give health advice to people over the internet because I just don't know them, the main problem we have here is that we have two different lifestyles, raw and non-raw and each lifestyle has it's own identity and when/if these identities clash there's not much room for compremise as usually a lot of damage is done because people feel that their identity is coming under attack.

 

I hope I can also share an insight with all you guys and just to point out that there's no hard feelings or malice here, now based on what you and others have said I don't even think that there should be a raw section here, the raw lifestyle is a belief system for many long time raw people, it's not so much for the people that are just trying it out but the people that stick to it all have some strong reason to believe that it's helped or saved their lives so they are generally pretty passionate about their experience, I'm one of those people and I have spent time with and seen many of these individuals via my own boot camp and other raw events and I also get e-mails from such people nearly everday, but I think the subject matter causes way too much friction.

 

I'll speak for myself by saying that , yeah, I wish my experience was the same as everybody elses and I could share your opinions on diet but it isn't, yeah, I tried to conform with the norm but it just wasn't working for me, so here I am in the minority doing this ultra-alternative lifestyle where nobody really understands whats going on but me and others in the minority that share the same passion, so when Roberts starts this raw section, hey, I use it simply because I like this board, I've been here for years and now we have a raw section, great, but if your going to have a raw section on a non-raw forum you got to know what your getting yourself into because due to the nature of the raw lifestyle and subject matter your always gonna get a lot of friction between raw and non raw vegans.

 

I thought that because of Robert and the diversity of the board this would be the one place that could possibly handle it but sadly no, this isn't about Robert and this isn't about the board, it just happens, I've seen this happen so many times on other non-raw boards, again I don't mean any offence but if it stayed it would cause too much friction and simply be looked at as the black sheep of the family that you have to keep making excuses for and if you put an expert there do you put one there that's going to say what the majority wants to hear so as not to put the majority of non-raw people off?....again no offence intended just something for Robert to think about.

 

So yeah if people don't like what's written in that section and it's causing too much friction/ruffling feathers then get rid it and learn from experience or even if it's just down to me pissing people off then I'll go, I have no beef with anybody and I'll take no offense to going if that's what is needed to keep peace here because in the same way this board shouldn't be watered down the same goes for all parts of it including the raw section, as far as this "proof" thing, let me set the record straight, yeah, I could of posted what he wanted but I didn't like his tone and I couldn't be bothered hunting them down as it was already late at night for me and I was already doing 3 things at once, I explained this only to be branded a liar, which is cool, if that's the way he wants to take it, I've also post many pics and vids here other the years and felt that should be sufficiant because that's proof enough in my book, after all what more can anybody want as "proof" and how many of the top raw "guru's'" do you know that have shared so many pics/vids of themselves?....the only legit raw guru I know that shows off his body is Doug Graham, also things have changed for me now and I'm really not into "proving on demand" like I used to do, when I used to post pics back in the day, it was to prove that Fruitarianism when done correctly was healthy, I don't feel as though I need to do that anymore as I have proved everything that I wanted to, if not to everyone, I've proved it to myself and that's enough for me, now I'm much more "closed for business" but that should still not make me a liar!

 

VE...I think the points you raised for this vegan board in general are good ones that would suit the majority if not all the vegan members here and you raised them without offending or attacking anybody and I appreciate that, as far as this "street cred" thing goes, that seems real childish to me, I think that it's the people that make a forum what it is and I don't think it has to come down to experience or being new because you can have new members that are hardcore as heck that just do their thing and post it and the same for the fitness guys like me and there should be no reason why the two styles should not be able to co-exist, I think those that think this place is no longer what they want it to be should look at themselves and be the change, Robert really hasn't changed much, he's simply added more choice and I don't think it matters what direction he goes in because the old forums are still there for us to use, it's us the members that either choose to or not to use the forums, so if they want more hardcore bodybuilding then they need to get the ball rolling and post there themselves and don't look around to anyone else.

 

Anyway, be good y'all...Rob, get back to me on this!

 

Big

Edited by Bigbwii
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Hey, Big, good to hear from you on this. I definitely did not mean to intend to single you out in any way, just so you know - if it sounds like that at all it's probably just because that's the way others have taken this up and I definitely don't want it to sound like I'm following suit. I think you do a great service in the raw forum, no question about it. I just think that there's kind of a weird battle that goes on between the raw and regular nutrition formums that needs to be worked out - I know it's tough to agree on nutrition and such, which is likely what causes the whole thing to get this way. But again, you do great work and have shown that you can be raw and make some excellent progress, so keep it up, man, and don't get down on thinking that it's focused too much on yourself. I think that once we can get everyone to agree to disagree about things more easily that'll take a care of a lot of this, but trying to get all sides to agree on things can really be tough, especially when it comes to nutrition advice. We'll just have to take it one step at a time.

 

As for recommending having a "guru" for each forum, I don't mean that in any way of disrespect to those that have done incredibly well with their diet and training - rather, it would just give a bit more insight from someone who is known to be an expert in their field, which can also be a big help for newcomers and take care of a lot of the general stuff. Someone who can get a good FAQ section up for each appropriate section, help answer the really technical stuff that others may be afraid to get into (or, may not have the best info to supply), and just be a go-to person for both the very easy and the very tough stuff. That's all I was suggesting here - my rambling post was written very late at a time when I had today's surgery on my mind and in going back, I can see how things may have bene a bit confusing or could be misinterpreted. I did not mean to imply that you or anyone else is less than qualified to give good advice, but rather that there's always room for more people to get involved who are more than capable of dispensing wisdom that may be i new directions or beyond what we can do.

 

I hope that clears things up a bit - again, I didn't mean to direct this toward just one person as I've seen it a handful of times with quite a few different people. It's just one opinion I thought I'd put out there.

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Hey, Big, good to hear from you on this. I definitely did not mean to intend to single you out in any way, just so you know - if it sounds like that at all it's probably just because that's the way others have taken this up and I definitely don't want it to sound like I'm following suit. I think you do a great service in the raw forum, no question about it. I just think that there's kind of a weird battle that goes on between the raw and regular nutrition formums that needs to be worked out - I know it's tough to agree on nutrition and such, which is likely what causes the whole thing to get this way. But again, you do great work and have shown that you can be raw and make some excellent progress, so keep it up, man, and don't get down on thinking that it's focused too much on yourself. I think that once we can get everyone to agree to disagree about things more easily that'll take a care of a lot of this, but trying to get all sides to agree on things can really be tough, especially when it comes to nutrition advice. We'll just have to take it one step at a time.

 

As for recommending having a "guru" for each forum, I don't mean that in any way of disrespect to those that have done incredibly well with their diet and training - rather, it would just give a bit more insight from someone who is known to be an expert in their field, which can also be a big help for newcomers and take care of a lot of the general stuff. Someone who can get a good FAQ section up for each appropriate section, help answer the really technical stuff that others may be afraid to get into (or, may not have the best info to supply), and just be a go-to person for both the very easy and the very tough stuff. That's all I was suggesting here - my rambling post was written very late at a time when I had today's surgery on my mind and in going back, I can see how things may have bene a bit confusing or could be misinterpreted. I did not mean to imply that you or anyone else is less than qualified to give good advice, but rather that there's always room for more people to get involved who are more than capable of dispensing wisdom that may be i new directions or beyond what we can do.

 

I hope that clears things up a bit - again, I didn't mean to direct this toward just one person as I've seen it a handful of times with quite a few different people. It's just one opinion I thought I'd put out there.

 

Oh no man, it was great to hear from you, I don't see you very often and no I wasn't offended at all, if I sounded ticked off I apologize, I'm usually doing 2-3 things at once on the computor plus all this saddened me a great deal, but no man, I'm cool and agreed with what you pointed out, I realised it was like walking on egg shells because a few members decided to single me out then trash the raw section and everybody knows that I I'm the most vocal there because I will try to help out in the raw section all I can, so yeah when you trash the raw section I'm going to get painted with the same brush too but I'll take the hit for the raw section, my shoulders are broad enough.

 

All this has been very unfortunate and uncalled for but as I said this stuff happens, I've seen it many times else where and in my personal life and it's always the same, I remember getting verbally attacked and getting into some major battles many times when I first started out just for consistantly eating fruits for my lunch and I know that other long time raw vegans can share similar stories with you about how certain people react towards them simply because they eat raw foods, for some reason some people seem to take great offense to you looking after your health, so it's been a part of life for me for a long time and it can be pretty depressing and lonely and that's why I try to help people that want to go raw because I know what the obstacles are and how they can stop you before you even get started.

 

I don't get attacked on a personal level anymore because I'm in better shape now and people know better, infact the crap we just went through on the board reminded me a lot of those times and it really showed me how far I've come as an individual, now I'm wearing fruit power t-shirts like I'm Mr Bigstuff and nobody says boo!!!

 

Yeah there's always wars between raw and non-raw members in raw sections but it's usually a certain small group of people that always feels threatened and starts a debate, then they call it "questioning" and because we are so "alternative" and some people are so new that we end up as such easy targets and all we can come back with is our own experiences and personal truths and for most people it's just so much easier just to go back to the standard American diet, for me personaly nobody can "question" my personal truth, that will stay with me till I go to my grave. I don't think anyone can "sort it out" it just is what it is, there's always going to be jerks from both sides!

 

Sorry for rambling but I feel it's really important that people get an insight into what it's really like to be a raw vegan, it's so darn hard and can be extremely lonely and daunting because it's so hard to find people that you can share stuff with especially when things happen while your cleansing that mimics real illness and if your not getting support from people that know what's happening it's so easy to give up and go back to the standard diet and here's another insight, when raw vegans post certain articles they are not doing it to cause offence, it's simply apart of our experience that we want to share amongst fellow raw vegans.

 

I hope all this clears up quick too because Rob does so much work and such a good job promoting veganism.

 

Anyway man I'm tired, just had a kick azz workout, it's late and I'm off to rest, you be good, ya hear!!!!

 

Bigz

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I'd like to add an opinion here. I don't believe there has been a problem with raw food on this forum. Rather, I think that the raw food section has attracted some naive questions and some questionable advice. I don't think that any one particular person has given bad advice but that some of the topics are not what the rest of us want this forum to be associated with.

 

I don't think that anyone here is against raw foods - we all eat them. However, the raw foods section of this forum has attracted a lot of unorthodox posts and that doesn't sit well with most people, vegan or not. People are vegan for a variety of reasons, including compassion, health and the environment. Most are not vegan because they just want to be different or alternative. Being vegan does not mean that we are any more open to alternative ideas than omnis - most vegans were omnis at one point.

 

If the raw section has caused this much of a divide in the forum then I believe it's probably a good idea to remove it. This is a vegan forum first and that's something we can all agree upon. If there is a section that is causing division then it doesn't help this forum or veganism - even if there are some who do gain from that section. Just my opinion.

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I feel it's really important that people get an insight into what it's really like to be a raw vegan, it's so darn hard and can be extremely lonely and daunting because it's so hard to find people that you can share stuff with especially when things happen while your cleansing that mimics real illness and if your not getting support from people that know what's happening it's so easy to give up and go back to the standard diet and here's another insight, when raw vegans post certain articles they are not doing it to cause offence, it's simply apart of our experience that we want to share amongst fellow raw vegans.

 

 

i couldn't agree more

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