Veganitaliana Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 I just received some back issues of Living Nutrition and in volume 17 there is a very good interview with Dr. Colin Campbell. Dr. Campbell is one of my heroes because his book "The China Study" is what convinced me and my family to become vegan. It convinced even my husband who is a scientist but also a very skeptical person. I am very grateful for this change because our health has improved remarkably. My husband is even off his high blood pressure meds. However, most people even after reading the book only remember the vegan aspect. Dr. Campbell is adamant about promoting a "Whole foods plant based diet" as the healthiest possible. Some people have interpreted this to mean that cooked fruits and vegetables are included in Dr. Campbell's definition of whole foods. The interview in Living Nutrition is pretty clear that this is not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veganitaliana Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 Interview continued because it was too long for one post: Here are the pertinent quotes: "DK(David Klein is the interviewer): In regard to cooking, were you involved in any of the studies of the mutagenic heat effects and were there any studies that quantified the mutagenic effects of various temperatures on different foods? TCC(Thomas Colin Campbell): There have been some studies of heavily cooked meat and lightly cooked meat. Early on, certain mutagenic chemicals which appear upon heating were discovered, mostly polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons. Those compounds, resulting from open flame heating as well as at low temperature cooking, were know to be mutagenic carcinogens. Among our panel this raised a red flag about cooked foods. Studies comparing different foods and different temperatures were not done because it is a very difficult and costly area of research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veganitaliana Posted October 16, 2007 Author Share Posted October 16, 2007 DK: In "Diet, Nutrition and Cancer" it says that low and normal cooking temperatures do result in the production of mutagens. But it didn't go so far as to say the mutagens cause cancer or that cooked meat causes cancer. Have you participated in or seen studies on raw versus cooked protein foods? To be continued... because I'm having problems posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 DK: In "Diet, Nutrition and Cancer" it says that low and normal cooking temperatures do result in the production of mutagens. Please, tell me SOMETHING bad produced from boiling or steaming. I know acrylamide and others in baking/frying/broiling, but I'd love to hear someone come up with something in boiled or steamed foood.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offense74 Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Ooops, sorry, didn't see that it was the raw food forum. I was going to post scientific stuff... Sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Do it anyways, both sides should be allowed for discussion as long as it's civil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tasha Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Ooops, sorry, didn't see that it was the raw food forum. I was going to post scientific stuff... Sorry... Offense I love you Oops that wasn't either raw or scientific stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pamela Posted October 16, 2007 Share Posted October 16, 2007 Ooops, sorry, didn't see that it was the raw food forum. I was going to post scientific stuff... Sorry... Offense I love you Oops that wasn't either raw or scientific stuff. I snickered too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veganitaliana Posted October 17, 2007 Author Share Posted October 17, 2007 DK: In "Diet, Nutrition and Cancer" it says that low and normal cooking temperatures do result in the production of mutagens. Please, tell me SOMETHING bad produced from boiling or steaming. I know acrylamide and others in baking/frying/broiling, but I'd love to hear someone come up with something in boiled or steamed foood.... Acrylamide is produced in high-carbohydrate foods by the chemistry of cooking. Here's a link.http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/chem/acrylamide_faqs/en/ If the boiling/steaming temperature is over 120 degrees acrylamide is formed. Steam is way over 120 degrees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted October 17, 2007 Share Posted October 17, 2007 DK: In "Diet, Nutrition and Cancer" it says that low and normal cooking temperatures do result in the production of mutagens. Please, tell me SOMETHING bad produced from boiling or steaming. I know acrylamide and others in baking/frying/broiling, but I'd love to hear someone come up with something in boiled or steamed foood.... Acrylamide is produced in high-carbohydrate foods by the chemistry of cooking. Here's a link.http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/chem/acrylamide_faqs/en/ If the boiling/steaming temperature is over 120 degrees acrylamide is formed. Steam is way over 120 degrees. That is totally not true. PLEASE read your source next time. It clearly states: "We don’t know exactly at what temperature acrylamide is formed in food. However acrylamide has so far not been found in food prepared at temperatures below 120 degrees Celsius, including boiled foods." 120 C = 248 Degrees F Boiling Water = 212 Degrees. Fahrenheit ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veganitaliana Posted October 18, 2007 Author Share Posted October 18, 2007 DK: In "Diet, Nutrition and Cancer" it says that low and normal cooking temperatures do result in the production of mutagens. Please, tell me SOMETHING bad produced from boiling or steaming. I know acrylamide and others in baking/frying/broiling, but I'd love to hear someone come up with something in boiled or steamed foood.... Acrylamide is produced in high-carbohydrate foods by the chemistry of cooking. Here's a link.http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/chem/acrylamide_faqs/en/ If the boiling/steaming temperature is over 120 degrees acrylamide is formed. Steam is way over 120 degrees. That is totally not true. PLEASE read your source next time. It clearly states: "We don’t know exactly at what temperature acrylamide is formed in food. However acrylamide has so far not been found in food prepared at temperatures below 120 degrees Celsius, including boiled foods." 120 C = 248 Degrees F Boiling Water = 212 Degrees. Fahrenheit ...... Zack, what temperature is steam produced at? And I did say Over 120 degrees did I not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted October 18, 2007 Share Posted October 18, 2007 DK: In "Diet, Nutrition and Cancer" it says that low and normal cooking temperatures do result in the production of mutagens. Please, tell me SOMETHING bad produced from boiling or steaming. I know acrylamide and others in baking/frying/broiling, but I'd love to hear someone come up with something in boiled or steamed foood.... Acrylamide is produced in high-carbohydrate foods by the chemistry of cooking. Here's a link.http://www.who.int/foodsafety/publications/chem/acrylamide_faqs/en/ If the boiling/steaming temperature is over 120 degrees acrylamide is formed. Steam is way over 120 degrees. That is totally not true. PLEASE read your source next time. It clearly states: "We don’t know exactly at what temperature acrylamide is formed in food. However acrylamide has so far not been found in food prepared at temperatures below 120 degrees Celsius, including boiled foods." 120 C = 248 Degrees F Boiling Water = 212 Degrees. Fahrenheit ...... Zack, what temperature is steam produced at? And I did say Over 120 degrees did I not? Ok.. I'll explain it again. You cannot get boiling water or steam from that water over 120 degrees celsisus because the boiling point is 100 degrees celsisus, and the temperature is consistant, thus if 120 celsius is the point at which acrylamide forms, it is NOT possible through boiling or steaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veganitaliana Posted October 19, 2007 Author Share Posted October 19, 2007 Zack, reaching boiling temperature and continuing to heat are two different things. Temperature is a factor of heat, pressure and the properties of the item being heated. Have you ever noticed that there are different cooking times for moutainous areas than for areas at sea level? Plus, have you ever used a thermometer to caramalize sugar for candy apples for example and watch the temperature rise and rise in order for it to caramalize? As you continue to apply heat, the temperature rises way above the starting boiling point. That is why the conclusion of the FAO is: Food should not be cooked excessively, i.e. for too long or at too high a temperature. It does not specify that a certain cooking method is better or worse than another. It is a question of temperature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offense74 Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 Under normal pressure, water will not reach higher temperatures than 100 Celsius. If you cook in iron the temperature will reach 2861 °C but not more. So if you try and melt iron to cook with, acrylamides will most likely form.You can contain gases and add energy and thus increase the temperature (ie the motion of the molecules). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted October 19, 2007 Share Posted October 19, 2007 As you continue to apply heat, the temperature rises way above the starting boiling point. No it doesn't. The temperature is constant at the boiling point. Boiling and Steaming does not form acrylamide. Since I've already proven that according to your article, can you come up with a toxin formed in boiling or steaming? Please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veganitaliana Posted October 20, 2007 Author Share Posted October 20, 2007 As you continue to apply heat, the temperature rises way above the starting boiling point. No it doesn't. The temperature is constant at the boiling point. Boiling and Steaming does not form acrylamide. Since I've already proven that according to your article, can you come up with a toxin formed in boiling or steaming? Please? When you add food to water, it is no longer pure water. You have changed the chemical composition, that is why caramalization occurs with just sugar and water. How convenient also to ignore the FAO's conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xveganjoshx Posted October 20, 2007 Share Posted October 20, 2007 When you add food to water, it is no longer pure water. You have changed the chemical composition, that is why caramalization occurs with just sugar and water. How is this even relevant to the discussion at hand? Do yourself a favor: Get a clue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flanders77 Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 Huy guys!Without getting involved in this discussion I just want to say that there are still different believes in this forum. After the big "where-does-vbb-go?"-discussion the raw-section should be the area in which members with different believes (which may not be scientifically "proven" yet) can express these believes. There is no reason to get offending, Josh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
offense74 Posted October 21, 2007 Share Posted October 21, 2007 I agree, let's keep thermodynamics and other pointless, non-emotional belief systems out of this section! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xveganjoshx Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 If the boiling/steaming temperature is over 120 degrees acrylamide is formed. Steam is way over 120 degrees. For clarification:The temperature of boiling water is always a constant at a given pressure. At atmospheric pressure, this constant temperature is 100 degrees Celsius. So the boiling temperature cannot ever be greater than 100 degrees Celsius, as you said. The temperature of steam is variable at a given pressure. At atmospheric pressure, steam is always greater than or equal to 100 degrees Celsius in temperature. Your assertion that steam is way over 120 degrees is not correct. Steam can be at 105 degrees, or 130 degrees, etc, depending on how much energy the heating element is imparting on the water. This is elementary thermodynamics. This is an indisputable fact, because thousands upon thousands of experiments have illustrated this behavior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flanders77 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 For clarification:The temperature of boiling water is always a constant at a given pressure. At atmospheric pressure, this constant temperature is 100 degrees Celsius. So the boiling temperature cannot ever be greater than 100 degrees Celsius, as you said. The temperature of steam is variable at a given pressure. At atmospheric pressure, steam is always greater than or equal to 100 degrees Celsius in temperature. Your assertion that steam is way over 120 degrees is not correct. Steam can be at 105 degrees, or 130 degrees, etc, depending on how much energy the heating element is imparting on the water. This is elementary thermodynamics. This is an indisputable fact, because thousands upon thousands of experiments have illustrated this behavior.This is what I call clarification! Thanks Josh!To put an end to this "debate" I conclude the following:Water cannot be hotter than 100°Celcius at atmospheric pressure.Steam is always hotter than 100°Celcius and can be hotter than 120°Celcius.Zack was wrong when saying You cannot get boiling water or steam from that water over 120 degrees celsisus because the boiling point is 100 degrees celsisus, and the temperature is consistant, thus if 120 celsius is the point at which acrylamide forms, it is NOT possible through boiling or steaming.And Veganitaliana was wrong when saying If the boiling/steaming temperature is over 120 degrees acrylamide is formed. Steam is way over 120 degrees.If steam can be hotter than 120°Celcius, acrylamide can be formed by steaming high-carbohydrate foods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 How was I wrong, didn't you just say this? "Water cannot be hotter than 100°Celcius at atmospheric pressure. " I wasn't specific enough, but it wasn't wrong. Acrylamide is not formed when you go into your kitchen and steam some vegetables, if you can prove that wrong, please do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flanders77 Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 You stated: You cannot get boiling water or steam from that water over 120 degrees celsisus because the boiling point is 100 degrees celsisus, and the temperature is consistant, thus if 120 celsius is the point at which acrylamide forms, it is NOT possible through boiling or steaming. I quote you again. I only referred to the above statement which was wrong because steam can be hotter than 100°C. I really do not know the exact steam temperatures that can be found in once kitchen but as Josh explained it is possible to produce steam that is hotter than 120°C.I did not say that acrylamide is formed when you steam vegetables but that is can be formed when steaming high-corbohydrate foods in steam hotter than 120°C. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dontxhide Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 Im a bit ignorant here, but what is acrylamide? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zack Posted October 22, 2007 Share Posted October 22, 2007 It's a neurotoxin formed during high temperature baking/broiling/frying high carb foods. The highest concentrations are in peanut butter, and Potato products (french fries and chips are the worst). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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