Vegans bashing Vegans - Intelligent Debate/Conversation

[Guest]

Yes it is hard to be 100% vegan but there are some things in life that aren't vegan that are very easy to avoid. Gelatin for example is one of them. Leather is one of them. Animal tested makeup is one of them...very easy things to not be a funder of.

[robert]

I honestly think that my initial post covered the core problem. Sir Paul (beatles?) does a lot for animals, and is not vegan. Telling him "you're not vegan" doesn't get anywhere. Even if he claimed to be vegan, simply telling him that he isn't vegan won't change anything. You'd have to explain to him why his non-vegan actions are ethically wrong, then you would have educated him, and you could see how he used that knowledge.

 

There is a definition of veganism which was established by the man who made the word. Maintaining that word is important for things like restaurants, ingredient lists, and vegan labelling like the vegan society etc. If that definition is lost / degraded so that non-vegan ingredients / methods can be included in products, then I would be upset.

 

However, I don't think that the definition of veganism is as important as the actions that a person makes. I think that explaining to someone why they are wrong is a good thing, on any subject. But telling them that they're not fitting to a definition isn't necessarily a good thing, if both people disagree on the definition. If someone is doing XYZ that you think is wrong, you want them to stop doing XYZ, so why not tackle that head on, rather than that the long route, which you know will have more conflict?

 

The argument is often

XYZ -> I don't think it's vegan -> you want to be vegan -> here's what I say veganism is -> therefore you shouldn't do XYZ.

 

When really it should just be:

XYZ -> here's why I think it's wrong -> stop doing XYZ

 

The core matter of why XYZ is wrong is skipped in the first instance

 

 

I think you're accurate, or at least I like your view, and I agree, much like I agree with what I said, what loveliberate just posted, what LongTimeVegan posted, etc.

 

Again, the issue that "I brought up when I started this thread" is NOT who is vegan and who isn't, but how vegans treat over vegans to the point that their entire (or pieces ) of their reasons for being vegan get ignored or at least overlooked because of their negative actions toward other vegans striving for somewhat of the same goal!

 

The reason I put the reason for the post in bold is so we don't stray from it as we are a little, but even our straying is covering other important issues as well.

 

Really, I think we're all agreeing we're just using different words or different ways of expressing the same thougthts.

 

For example, I think I said this about 5 times, loveliberate said it, Richard, and others said it as well but I'm quoting LongTimeVegan just because I like the way it was "re-said" here:

In my experience, "judging" others for their actions is rarely productive. I find this true when interacting with "vegans" and "non-vegans" alike. I think it is best to focus on our common interests, rather than the differences. Because there will ALWAYS exist differences in the way people practice "veganism". -Chris

 

Like loveliberate, I enjoy the intelligent discussions as well and think that we accomplish things.

 

As Richard pointed out, of course we need a standard for what 'vegan' is and what it means and most of us understand the history, roots, meaning of the word and lifestyle, and we live that way.

 

But ultimately, it comes down to what a bunch of us try to continue to hit home and that is..............why I started this thread.....................that we shouldn't focus our attention on what others in our movement our doing and to criticize their actions, but rather focus on the larger picture and realize that we have a long road ahead and it is best and most effective to work together to accomplish some common goals.

[Guest]

We definitely have a long road ahead of us...a road that probably will never have an end. I just think that road needs to be taken with honesty. People that believe in animal welfare are part of that road. People that aren't vegan and promote eating lots of plants are part of a different but neccessary road(and just as important if not more important). After all...if everyone stopped eating meat and other forms of animal cruelty kept going animals would be in a much better situation than they are now since more animals are killed for food than for animal testing and clothing. Thing is those roads are different even though a lot of the results are the same. Really I think people need to be seen for what they are...not for vegans but for non vegans looking on. We can't be seen as obvious hypocrites by people that eat meat. Thats a major problem.

[robert]

I want to point this out because I think it is interesting:

 

I'm sure some of you have noticed this too......I don't think a single person has changed their view in this thread. We've had two days of intelligent discussion about an important issue (vegans bashing other vegans and it's effect on the vegan movement).

 

A bunch of us have posted multiple times in this thread and I've been thinking about this for the last 12 hours.....

 

We all think that we're right As far as I know, nobody has changed their mind about anything major.

 

I think it is "OK", but I also really do find it interesting. I can imagine each person at his/her computer just thinking or even saying out loud, "I'm right, why won't other people get it!?!)

 

Part of being open minded is to be able to view things from another perspective.

 

For example, I truly understand veganpotter's perspective 100%, or nearly 100%. He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I see that he is really bothered by people who are not vegan by definition, who claim to be vegan and who even profit of selling non-vegan things. This would/could upset any of us and all us. He also says that none of us are truly vegans but we strive to be vegan by making conscious efforts, not by using 1% of our items as non-vegan sources and being aware of it, and doing it anyway.

 

I understand that, but that wasn't the point of my thread. I could care less as to what % (if it could ever be measured anyway) vegan someone is here on this forum. You're here because you're at least interested in the issues that go along with being vegan and you're probably taking positive steps in those areas to reduce animals as use of food, products, testing, etc, by default, based on your lifestyle (whether it matches your interest or not (possible health vegan, etc. the results for animals is the same - lives spared/saved).

 

So in our own minds, we're all right, but let's at least acknowledge that others do have valid points and concerns and evaluate how that fits into the theme of this thread which is vegans bashing vegans which hurts, rather than helps our cause.

 

Anyway, I just thought it was interesting to point that out. We try to articulate a point well, hoping that others will see it and some of us have really said the "same thing" nearly a dozen times (quoted above).

 

At this point, I think we're mostly in agreement, on the same page, and I think we'll all be more aware of what we say about other vegans, how we treat others in this movement and we'll ask ourselves how it affects what is really important, the underlying, fundamental basics of veganism.

 

Thanks for all your input on this subject! I love you all, really I do.

[Richard]

I think that vegans bashing other vegans is a bad thing to do - as I think that bashing is generally quite pointless regardless. But trying to educate someone about something that they're doing which contributes to animal suffering, is a good thing. A lot of it is to do with phrasing, and tone.

 

Like I think that the following is unnecessary:

"Milk isn't vegan you dumbass, you fail at being vegan"

 

The point being made is surely:

"I think it's unethical to use milk because XYZ"

 

then it can go into a regular conversation. I think that trying to get people (who are already concerned with animal rights) to do even more, is fine. Since becoming 'vegan', I've had various things brought to my attention, I didn't just dismiss it and say "You've being a nazi" or "What are you, the vegan police?" - because the people who gave me the new information were right, that I was contributing to animal suffering with my actions, so it only made sense to change my ways

[damdaman]

I just wanted to chime in to say that what drew me to this discussion forum was also the fact that it seemed generally free from the (in my opinion) ridiculous flaming, arguing, and judging of other vegans I saw on every other vegan message board I visited. I won't name websites, but I was seriously turned off by the prevailing attitude (usually backed up/encouraged by the site admins/owners/moderators) on some of these websites. Here I was naively thinking I was going to find a community of like-minded folks who are working to make the world a better place, when all I found were people sniping, judging, and alienating other groups/people that, when compared to mainstream western society, they agreed with more than they disagreed with. Attempting to point this out or encourage some solidarity was nearly always completely and utterly a waste of time.

 

And this is what it boils down to, for me... solidarity. The reality of the situation is that, like it or not, we're INCREDIBLY and UTTERLY outnumbered, out-financed, and out-maneuvered. To my mind, it is the height of self-destructiveness (as a movement) to then start alienating potential allies.

 

So PETA does some shit that pisses a lot of vegans off. Great, I can sympathize with that. Let's acknowledge that and try to change PETA, rather than sit around complaining about them and undermining everything they do. Cuz the bottom line is that while PETA is not perfect, they are not our enemies.

 

It's called solidarity. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. There will be plenty of time for criticizing and purging (that's a strong word, but to me it feels like what is sometimes advocated on these other forums) the movement once 98.4% of the population is vegan, rather than 1.6%. In the meantime, it is suicidal to not at least present a united front, in solidarity, even if we criticize or have issues with a group or person in private.

 

When you're up against such overwhelming odds like we are, it is completely irresponsible to alienate ANY potential ally, no matter the differences you may have with them.

 

We will never, and I mean NEVER, spread veganism into mainstream culture if we can't stick together when it matters.

 

For this reason, I've often found myself believing that those vegan purists on other forums who angrily tear down those who don't see things their way and refuse to act in solidarity do more to harm animals than the people they're criticizing. Their actions do more to harm the movement and thus slow down the spread of veganism to mainstream culture than anything the meat industry/government could think up.

[Richard]

It is hard to discuss this kind of thing without specifics. I have been banned from a couple of vegan forums for being a 'nazi' or whatever. But in my view, I was providing information / views to people who seemed to either lack the knowledge, or the compassion to follow through in their lifestyle. People don't like it when you say "I think you shouldn't do that", even if you phrase it in the nicest possible way, they take it like an insult a lot, which is a matter of confidence on their part. I find it awkward, as even amongst other animal-rights oriented people, I feel like I have to always hold my tongue so I don't hurt their feelings and stuff. But I generally explain things at least once if it comes up, and then it's up to them to ask for more info if they care about it. If they don't care about it, then there is no point hounding them about it

[veggieprincess]

I personally think the time is upon us that some people would like to see a bit looser definition of that particular word, or whom they let use that word to apply to themselves, and some people are saying "no way".

 

Change is necessary for growth. Look at how religion has changed over time. Many Christians don't believe in abortion or pre-marital sex but it doesen't mean they would barricade the door of the church or not let those who have pre-marital sex call themselves Christian. But once upon a time they would have barricaded the door in a matter of speaking.

 

I think the conflict is arising more now because people are turning to Veganism for a more wide variety of reasons. The principles that it was founded upon were so inspirational and have merit and it is something we should all strive to be better at a little each day.

 

It's the bashing that causes the real problem. And for some reason, when some individuals sit behind their computer, the bashing becomes much more ferocious and with more of a vengeance than it would if those people were face to face.

 

The biggest problem I see is ALIENATING PEOPLE WHO COULD DO MORE GOOD AND BRING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE TO VEGANISM.

 

We need to exercise a bit more empathy. Alot of women are naturally good at empathy. Robert seems to be very good at it too. It must be all that Soy

[Zack]

Bashing is non-vegan, it may make these semi vegans that get criticized go back to former ways.

 

Therefore, critical vegans are not vegans because of the effect of their bashing on other "vegans."

 

[Richard]

I personally think the time is upon us that some people would like to see a bit looser definition of that particular word, or whom they let use that word to apply to themselves, and some people are saying "no way".

 

Change is necessary for growth. Look at how religion has changed over time. Many Christians don't believe in abortion or pre-marital sex but it doesen't mean they would barricade the door of the church or not let those who have pre-marital sex call themselves Christian. But once upon a time they would have barricaded the door in a matter of speaking.

 

I think the conflict is arising more now because people are turning to Veganism for a more wide variety of reasons. The principles that it was founded upon were so inspirational and have merit and it is something we should all strive to be better at a little each day.

 

It's the bashing that causes the real problem. And for some reason, when some individuals sit behind their computer, the bashing becomes much more ferocious and with more of a vengeance than it would if those people were face to face.

 

The biggest problem I see is ALIENATING PEOPLE WHO COULD DO MORE GOOD AND BRING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE TO VEGANISM.

 

We need to exercise a bit more empathy. Alot of women are naturally good at empathy. Robert seems to be very good at it too. It must be all that Soy

 

If that happened - that the word was redefined - I would stop using the word altogether (I don't use it much now anyway due to the connotations it seems to have in many people's minds). I imagine that other people would also not use the word anymore, if it no longer represented their beliefs. Then presumably another word would arise, like ethical-buyer or cruelty-free-shopper or whatever, and that's what we'd be, and vegans would then be, whatever they claim to be. In a way, I already feel like having another word, because a lot of people use the word 'vegan' to mean 'the diet that a vegan follows', rather than an ethical lifestyle with respect to animals. That's why I don't use the word much, because that's what people think it means, I'd already like another word.

[VeganEssentials]

When you're up against such overwhelming odds like we are, it is completely irresponsible to alienate ANY potential ally, no matter the differences you may have with them.

 

We will never, and I mean NEVER, spread veganism into mainstream culture if we can't stick together when it matters.

 

Brother, you just said a mouthful, and in a much better way than I was able to. You've got the same attitude I try to carry - working together, even if we have minor differences of our interpretations of what it means to be "vegan", is more important than squabbling amongst ourselves and causing rifts. We get a whole hell of a lot more done working for positive change together than we do trying to simply refine and police ourselves internally. I'd be like an office running completely on middle management and the HR department - sure, things may be kept in check internally, but there's no outward growth when there's too much time spent on worrying about every bit of minutiae that doesn't help with outreach.

 

The word vegan has it's own clear and basic meaning, and it can defend itself well enough. If there are derivations, it's someone's discretion as to what they do (and whether they want to be called "vegan" or whether others consider them as such), but that doesn't change the word and what it stands for. It's up to us to spread the word of what it is, and I'd sooner see a million people go 95% animal-free than a thousand who go 100% and are living as pure as humanly possible. It has to be looked at in the big picture. Turning one person on to being vegan (or close-to lifestyle) may blossom out to dozens or hundreds more over time as each new person does the same, and just as well, turning one person off can do the same in a negative way. We need to keep positive and work for the greater good and using our energy to grow as much as possible first and foremost. We can clean house on the other things at the same time or down the line, but that part should never take precedence over our main mission.

[veggieprincess]

It's up to us to spread the word of what it is, and I'd sooner see a million people go 95% animal-free than a thousand who go 100% and are living as pure as humanly possible.

 

In my opinion, that's the best point that's been made so far. Very very well said. I agree with this statement 150%

[Jessifly]

it is completely irresponsible to alienate ANY potential ally, no matter the differences you may have with them.

 

INCREDIBLY good point damdaman! Thanks

 

In using the "road" metaphor (and nothing personal Potter, I admire you much and completely understand the point you are standing up for) but if it is a long and endless road, it will also be a very lonely road if only the perfect can walk it. By those standards I know for sure I am not allowed on that road because as good as my intentions are they are not perfect and therefore hypocrisy exists. But if we have the same destination in mind, can't we all walk together, as friends?

[Guest]

Lots of people have the same destination but until they get there themselves they simply aren't there. If that were the case we should just call all pesco-vegetarians that want to become vegetarian vegans because eventually dairy and eggs will be considered vegan if we go at this rate. Its not a matter of alienation. You can only stretch a definition so far before the word becomes useless and the term VEGAN may be on its way. People become vegan just because they think it may be cool or neato. They tend to be temporary vegans because that occational cheesecake tastes so good and that occational cheesecake becomes a weekly thing then a daily thing yet they will still call themselves vegan. People will see them as vegan and will want to be that kind of vegan. This is a downward spiral and this thread on the forum is making me think this is where people want to take things...just so we can consider more people vegan. Whats the point of coming together and all being considered vegan if most of us aren't. This will just get out of hand. This is why people think vegetarians can eat fish and chicken. I can't believe you people don't see how stupid this is and how deadening this can be to everything...especially animals.

[Zack]

Everyone that does something reduces animal cruelty...

[Guest]

Adopting a cat instead of buying one reduces animal cruelty...does that make someone a vegan???

[Zack]

Adopting a cat instead of buying one reduces animal cruelty...does that make someone a vegan???

 

I'm not disagreeing with you about what vegan is, I'm just saying that something is better than nothing. That's all.

[Guest]

For sure. I wish everyone would to what they can...even if nobody was vegan. Like I said before...if everyone picked up a vegetarian diet(meaning no eggs or dairy either) and didn't care about animals at all the world would be a much better place than it is now for animals, humans and the planet.

[Christopher]

When vegans bash vegans, it looks bad to those who already think we're all crazy. Fortunately, I've seen more people realizing vegans aren't what they thought; they're seeing higher profile vegan celebrities and sometimes stumble upon vegans who surprise them because they aren't what they thought they were.

 

I've always felt strange calling myself vegan because I do think it's an important description that carries with it a certain sense of activism. I'm not very active; I usually tell people I'm a strict vegetarian who consumes nothing from an animal. Most people say, "Oh, so you're a vegan." Sometimes I explain things in greater detail, and other times I don't.

 

While I'm not much of an activist, the way I eat has had an affect on people I know. My wife went vegetarian and then vegan with me. My mom went vegan. A friend at an old job went vegetarian and kept talking about how one day he'd give up cheese. At my current job, a friend went vegetarian after chatting with me and her son followed her. Her husband is leaning toward going fully vegetarian (he's seen a lot of health improvement since eating better). Another co-worker came up to me the other day and asked me if there was a wide variety of good vegan cheese. I told him there are a couple kinds that I think are all right if used certain ways, but I don't get a block of vegan cheese and eat it with wine or anything. He said, "Then I guess I'm a vegetarian..."

 

Maybe I should have told him there's good vegan cheese and tried selling him on going vegan, but it's in his mind (and I'm not too fond of most vegan cheeses). In time, there are great odds he will stop consuming dairy products--he's not into it for health...he was appalled when finding out how animals are treated and he's since chatted a bit more about how it bothers him. Some people make the leap quickly, and others take time.

 

By just being calm about the way I eat and when talking about the way I eat, I've seen people give vegetarianism and veganism a go. In almost every case, the people I work with have always respected me and never tease me because I respect them and dodn't fit the stereotype they expected.

 

Only one time in eight years have I had to deal with somebody picking on me for not consuming animal products. The funniest thing was my co-workers spoke up for me, telling the guy how vegans get protein, calcium, and all that good stuff. I didn't have to say much at all, and it showed that people listen and think about it when they come to me with questions and I answer them.

 

Maybe only a handful will ever make the leap, but I think more and more people are seeing that vegans don't fit a stereotype and they are more willing to consider making changes themselves.

 

It's definitely in the interests of reducing suffering to be calm and not fight about what constitutes being vegan. Discussions are cool, but being angry isn't going to win over all the people who think "Vegans are all pushy!"

 

I don't like people getting in my face and pushing their views on me, and I return that courtesy to everybody I meet.

 

So far, the results have been nothing but positive...

[Guest]

I think part of it is proving how easy it is to be vegan. That way people think its easy...and they should think its easy because it is...which is why it confuses me why people that aren't vegan call themselves vegan when it takes a very small change for them to be one. Its not that special of a thing so people just shouldn't consider themselves vegan if they aren't. Being vegan is a base of ethics...it starts there and you do what you want after. Not being vegan is something people should work away from...its not so much that they should work towards being vegan. Like I said before...there's nothing great about being vegan...but there are terrible consequences to not being vegan.

[cubby2112]

Here I am, just repeating things. It is of paramount importance that we do not allow the definition of veganism so slip. As has been said, it would be a useless term if someone who consumes a cheesecake a day threw the term around and had agreement from others on it. Mainly we need to not throw the term around like it is the be-all-end-all in animal rights, environmental, etc. struggles. I agree that there are far too few allies to be had and to alienate them is tantamount to suicide in the movements we are trying to support. That being said, if someone willingly and without necessity consumes or otherwise uses animal products (excluding the odd thing like old pants with a leather tag or what have you), it is harmful to allow said person to continue to taut the title vegan without any calm, positive intervention. If a person is claiming to be vegan and eats non-vegan pizza on occasion, it is imperative that something be said, or the word will soon lose all meaning.

 

Yes, it is impossible to be one-hundred percent vegan, but if one can do something to pull a certain animal product from his or her diet/lifestyle and still live in a modern society, then it is that person's moral duty to do so. Rubber tires do contain animal products, many metals are processed with animal products. We cannot do much at this point to stop that other than to make it known. We need to focus on what is causing suffering and is plausible to stop right now and later move onto things such as industrial products.

 

Being a vegan elitist is one of the most counter-productive mindsets you can take. It shines bad upon the whole movement. Focusing too much on the label vegan is a shot in the foot to any movement associated with it. It is merely a convenient label that can work as a quick, general definition which one should elaborate on given the chance.

 

For the most part we do all seem to be agreeing. Most seem to find the label as a useful tool in collaborating with like-minded people, and just that, a label. There are so many more important things to be focused on than a stupid label.

[Guest]

This is why I focus on people not being vegan more than anything. It sounds like semantics but what can you do. Its like anything that causes harm. Like say using plastic bottles. Try to promote people to not use them so much. If they use them gratuitously for kicks then they need to reevaluate what they are doing...if you are dying of thirst and the only available water is in a dirty pothole or a vending machine then buy some. Not being a patron to animal cruelty isn't really a good thing...its being a patron to animal cruelty which is bad.

[Guest]

Oh...as for the rubber and metal I wouldn't really say thats true in every case. I've vulcanized my share of rubber myself(the part that isn't supposed to be vegan) for jewelry class and we don't use any animal products. Most rubber like in car tires is made of butyl and not latex and therefore the rubber itself tends to be vegan. As for bike tires...extra light inner tubes are latex...I don't use them. And regular belted tires have silk to prevent flats but kevlar tires(which are now just as cheap) don't have silk and therefore are AOK. I've also purified some metals without animal products either...although I'd say the environmental impact of some of those chemicals may not be so hot.

[cubby2112]

Oh...as for the rubber and metal I wouldn't really say thats true in every case. I've vulcanized my share of rubber myself(the part that isn't supposed to be vegan) for jewelry class and we don't use any animal products. Most rubber like in car tires is made of butyl and not latex and therefore the rubber itself tends to be vegan. As for bike tires...extra light inner tubes are latex...I don't use them. And regular belted tires have silk to prevent flats but kevlar tires(which are now just as cheap) don't have silk and therefore are AOK. I've also purified some metals without animal products either...although I'd say the environmental impact of some of those chemicals may not be so hot.

 

Ah, that is cool. I will have to keep this in mind when I need another set of tires for my bike.

[Guest]

Vittoria Tires with Kevlar are better for preventing flats than most kevlar tires....of course nothing to do with the thread.