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Vegans bashing Vegans - Intelligent Debate/Conversation


robert
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Oh...as for the rubber and metal I wouldn't really say thats true in every case. I've vulcanized my share of rubber myself(the part that isn't supposed to be vegan) for jewelry class and we don't use any animal products. Most rubber like in car tires is made of butyl and not latex and therefore the rubber itself tends to be vegan. As for bike tires...extra light inner tubes are latex...I don't use them. And regular belted tires have silk to prevent flats but kevlar tires(which are now just as cheap) don't have silk and therefore are AOK. I've also purified some metals without animal products either...although I'd say the environmental impact of some of those chemicals may not be so hot.

 

Ok. I'm going to sound really ignorant but what is wrong with latex? I've done a search as to ingredients (which came back as non-animal) but is it a reason other than the ingredients?

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Latex is refined with dairy products. For the most part its an easy thing to get around in life thanks to the fact that there are so many people alergic to it. There are condoms, surgical gloves, synthetic latex paints...all thanks to people's alergies. If it weren't for them we'd be SOL.

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Latex is refined with dairy products. For the most part its an easy thing to get around in life thanks to the fact that there are so many people alergic to it. There are condoms, surgical gloves, synthetic latex paints...all thanks to people's alergies. If it weren't for them we'd be SOL.

 

Really? Now that I didn't know. Good to know when purchasing products that might contain it.

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  • 2 weeks later...

At first I thought this thread was about my post:

 

My intuition towards eating and consumption is not based on what lifestyle you choose, what you wear, what you eat or how many laps you can or cannot do. It is all about energy. So from my perspective you all look the same way you feel towards someone who is not your direct representation of the Vegan. Both in actuality and demeanor. In my humble opinion there is only the moment and then again that is no-thing. In the way we talk about this and that it can be hard for others to understand you, it is not our differences that hold us apart because we all generally feel good about what we are doing most of the time. Where others see fruits and veggies I see molecules and organic structures of energies in motion, same with meat and rocks. When I observe people acting against this I also wonder why they wish not to see the splendor of it all. In this way I can create an even smaller circle around myself and maybe others I have come into contact with over the years who feel the same. Yet we are all the same. What chains of memory are you following? What is your nature? Either to incite change or wield and woe do you not have some faith in what you are doing? In what way are you not a merchant? If you are selling faith in veganism do not be cross with others of the same faith.

 

back at another thread like "People who are not healthy giving advice" or something like that so I stayed away to see everyone's discussion. I suppose the only real flaw in the whole vegan movement (and I can understand why a "movement" would seem necessary as a response and for some a defense) is the identification of a vegan in the same way that someone would call themselves an American. I do not get normally get involved in groups with agenda's for this reason. If you saw two children fighting over what part of the sandbox was what, would you get involved? I was approached by a man who wanted me to donate money for a spade and nutering of domestic pets. My response was in the key of species manipulation and false dominance over animals. Another man's response to my statement was that he works and barely has enough to get by because he wants his children to have pets. Maybe he should think about feeding his children more than adding more variables to his situation. How many of you "vegans" would know how to survive in an environment unknown to you and keep your vegan lifestyle? (oh, and survive) So when painting your identity how many colors do you use and what mediums do you work in? Metaphors!!! This is all for discussion purposes and contemplation. My miracles are that I eat when hungry and sleep when tired.

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We definitely shouldn't be cross with others of the same faith...but if someone isn't of the same faith(meaning not practicing what they preach) then they aren't really the same faith are they. The "do as I say...not as I do" mindset will eventually lead to PESCO VEGANS...the same way PESCO VEGETARIANS are being seen as regular vegetarians to omnivores.

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What I was kind of getting at is that nobody is really vegan even if you eat like a vegan. Main word is LIKE a vegan. An idea must go through the same scutiny as any other. If you have not put your ideas to the same task as any other than you cannot call them your own and usually if you do it becomes a new idea, nifty keen! So if you think you are anything you can only live up to being LIKE the thing in your brain. The only thing we can ask anyone to do about the whole vegan lifestyle change is ask them to consider the same thought process as I have described.

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If people thought thoroughly and with a clear mind they way I think you're recommending they wouldn't compromise animals and the ideas vegans promote just to hold powder inside a pill. Sure there are many things in life that probably aren't all that vegan but they don't tend to be really simple things to avoid that compromise others that are actually trying to follow as much of a vegan life as they can Ann Coulter.

 

I'm guessing you took out the OK Muhammad part...put in back in...I don't care.

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I think its doing your best to not pay for the death of animals for your own good. If an animal needs to die to keep you alive for a surgery then you've gotta decide that on your own and I think would be justifiable either way. If an animal needs to die from animal testing because you want to make sure your nail polish would be safe to drink then you aren't a vegan.

I do my best to try not to buy or consume things that have animal part in them...and I don't buy leather shoes just to throw them away and keep the laces...that would be pointless...as is buying a supplement in a gelatin capsule then throwing it out...neither of them are all that necessary.

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I actually like Ron Paul...problem is he's running for the wrong party. He falls much under the democratic views than republican. I think a lot of republicans agree with me which is why he'll never win in that party...republicans don't want to vote for someone thats tops on my list for their party. Anyway I agree with him...he just needs to stand in the right place. The same thing goes for people that eat plant based diets for health. It'll make the world a better place(more so than the relatively scant number of people that'll go vegan for the animals) for people but if everything comes encased in a bit of animal carcass then its only helping you now isn't it???

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Similar arguments can be made about the wool and dairy industry...thats exactly why honey isn't right. I wouldn't call doing all that work to feed young larvae then having it taken would be such a nice thing. I also wouldn't call it a nice place to live. Most don't have actual hives. And even if they did they belong out in the wild...not here to please us.

 

When it comes to shooting deer with paint ball guns thats pretty cruel. And I don't think it would make them any more afraid of regular guns...after all most shots aren't taken when the deer can see the hunter anyway. Personally I'm anti hunting but I'm more anti meat buyer than anti hunter. At least hunted animals aren't born to be slaughtered. They do get some natural life. While animals raised for human purposes never really get any of that.

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I still don't understand the animal right zealot vegans, who think harvesting honey from bees is exploitation, when these bugs are given a descent place to build a hive in orchards, meadows and wilderness full of wildflowers to gather pollen.

 

 

Maybe you don't understand it, but it doesn't make it cool to call animal rights vegans "zealots."

 

I'd say that definitely falls under the "vegans bashing vegans" category.

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When my wife and I first met - our relationship progressed very quickly. We were both aware of this, but we let it happen because it wasn't so much that we were PUSHING our relationship forward quickly, but rather, it was as if we were being PULLED towards some destination. I guess that destination was us getting married (more specifically, committing to each other for life). I think the reason we felt that pull is because it was right, it was meant to be. Our lives had put us on a path to meet, and when we did, we seized the opportunity and let the natural flow of it happen as quickly as it was supposed to.

 

I feel the same way about many things in this world. For example, I think there is an ethical progression going on in the world, but it is not so much that it is being PUSHED by people, but rather we are being PULLED in a particular direction because it is the right thing to do, and it is meant to be. Veganism and vegetarianism, animal welfare, humanitarianism, the desire for peace, etc. are all part of that evolution towards a more ethical world. It is much bigger than any one of us, than any group of us, than any "movement", so internal bickering between people and groups only serves to put the brakes on it (though it keeps moving regardless, albeit perhaps a bit slower). And most often, that bickering has more to do with people defending and satisfying their own egos than anything else.

 

IMO, we should accept that there are differences between our views on things, and not let those differences hold us back individually. We can debate our diffferences, change each others' minds, or agree to disagree. We're all a part of a progression that we have much less control over than we'd like to believe - and that's a beautiful thing.

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It is a progression for sure and for the most part so long as people are improving I say don't bash and let them grow. Some people don't want to and I think they need to accept what they are and not consider they are something that they have not yet become. If you were an omni beginning to not eat red meat...you are not yet a vegetarian. If you are a vegetarian still buying animal products for beauty purposes then you are not yet vegan so don't call yourself that. There won't be any problems if people know who they are but once they get there they should know where they came from just like nearly all of us who weren't born vegan.

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I was kinda referring to Ron Pauls straight answers and questions then the opposition just dancing around one subject matter. But I agree with you, he is a neat candidate.

Just try not to make your diet your religion. if you are offended by being called a zealot then that would mean you identify with being as such, then you have to deal with your own form of the word. This is what I am talking about. I would hope that once we are done with these "Ethics" we can throw away it's primitive toys, but it is not without the journey. Just remember that there is a raw person out there cursing vegans because they allow the brutal cultivation of fruits and veggies.

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Just try not to make your diet your religion. if you are offended by being called a zealot then that would mean you identify with being as such, then you have to deal with your own form of the word. This is what I am talking about.

 

That's quite a leap in logic. I don't identify with "being as such," I identify with being an animal rights vegan. YOU said animal rights vegans are zealots. That doesn't mean I identify with being a zealot, and it's pretty disingenuous of you to twist things to say that.

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I actually didn't say anything about zealots and animal rights vegans in first place I was just commenting on the use and response you gave. I dont think I am twisting anything by saying that your form of zealot in your mind holds you to whatever you would think of being a zealot.(basically I am asking why it is not cool to call them zealots, what makes zeal a negative aspect) You just couldn't wait to stuff a word like disingenuous in my face could you? .... zealot LOL.

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I actually didn't say anything about zealots and animal rights vegans in first place I was just commenting on the use and response you gave. I dont think I am twisting anything by saying that your form of zealot in your mind holds you to whatever you would think of being a zealot.(basically I am asking why it is not cool to call them zealots, what makes zeal a negative aspect)

 

Sorry, I didn't realize that you weren't the same person who originally posted:

 

I still don't understand the animal right zealot vegans, who think harvesting honey from bees is exploitation, when these bugs are given a descent place to build a hive in orchards, meadows and wilderness full of wildflowers to gather pollen.

 

Zealot is normally used with a negative connotation, as I believe was intended with the quote above. So in that regard, I still think posts like the one above are a good example of vegans bashing vegans.

 

You just couldn't wait to stuff a word like disingenuous in my face could you? .... zealot LOL.

 

Why exactly would you say that? We've had no prior encounters on this site that I can recall...

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I was making a joke only with the last ...zealot, because you didn't see who made the original comment and passed it to me. I do not know you in any intimate way other than maybe reading your posts around the forum when i see them. That doesn't mean I can't act jovial with others, especially during a serious discussion, especially with people I have not met.

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Personally being completely vegan has been a long slow gradual tapered decsision. It has taken a long time to really conscientiously feel a moral obligation to refrain from eating and utilizing all animal products.

 

I still don't understand the animal right zealot vegans, who think harvesting honey from bees is exploitation, when these bugs are given a descent place to build a hive in orchards, meadows and wilderness full of wildflowers to gather pollen.

 

Similiar arguments can be made about the wool industry and dairy industry.

 

There are some part time meat eaters who follow certain indigineous people's ethics and will only eat hunted meat or wild fish because at least these animals got to roam around their habitat before they died, and were prone to non-human prey anyways.

 

I've often pondered why anti-hunting vegans don't consider shooting deer and elk with paint guns or bb guns right before hunting season so the young naive bucks will learn to escape the real bullets during hunting season.

 

I'd rather look at people with these half assed efforts toward veganism as though "the glass is half full" rather than "the glass is half empty"

 

It isn't vegan to consume honey, and bees suffer and are exploited in the harvesting of honey. I don't know what you mean about the wool and dairy industry either - both of them exploit the animals involved as well.

 

Certainly it is better to half-assedly attempt veganism than to not attempt at all. But that doesn't mean that it's acceptable to do XYZ just because they have made an effort to do ABC. For instance, if someone eats eggs and milk, and they cut out the milk, I'd say that's better. But it doesn't mean that I think that eating eggs is at all acceptable.

 

Hunting a wild animal which has lived part of its life in freedom, is better than keeping an animal in captivity for its whole life then killing it... but neither is acceptable or good, both are terrible.

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