Overtraining

[Zack]

Is it safe to assume if a muscle group isn't sore by the next time you work it out that you're not overtraining?

[offense74]

Why isn't it sore? It should be sore if you want to be a bodybuilder...

[Zack]

Why isn't it sore? It should be sore if you want to be a bodybuilder...

 

I work hard every session, I just feel like I have better than average recovery time. =\

[damdaman]

Personally I think overtraining can be felt mentally as well as physically.

 

But as you train longer, your body will produce less and less lactic acid over time, so you may not feel soreness in your muscles as much, even if you're getting a good workout.

[Zack]

I don't really feel like I am, but based on how many days a week i lift and the volume I do it at, most would say I am.

 

I feel fine so I suppose I'm good.

[Odidnetne]

I train hard but never feel soreness after a workout under normal circumstances. I think it has a lot to do with water consumption and potassium consumption, both are good for helping muscle contractions.

[markc7]

There is no magic amount or volume of training that qualifies as overtraining. Everyone recovers differently based on their body and their past training.

 

When I run with marathoners they often tell me that I'm over training, because I run over 60km/weekend in the spring. But I know exactly how much I can do and for how long, and I back off whenever I get the first inkling of being overtrained.

 

If you're feeling fine, then you're probably alright. Just pay attention to any changes in your soreness, fatigue, sleep, and heart rate.

[LongTimeVegan]

If your body is responding well and you aren't getting injuries I'd say you're doing fine. I do high volume work six days a week and I'm making great progress.

 

I used to spend a lot of time worrying about overtraining, because I'd read a couple places that ectomorphs can't lift volume every day and make gains the way mesomorphs can.

 

Maybe this is true for some ectos, but not for me. I was hella skinny, and trust me, I am no longer hella skinny.

[Guest]

I think if you recover so quickly you should take advantage of that and rest less. Thats the only way to take advantage of fast recovery...otherwise whats the point???

[VeganEssentials]

I think if you recover so quickly you should take advantage of that and rest less. Thats the only way to take advantage of fast recovery...otherwise whats the point???

 

It's worth a test for Zack. However, I rarely get sore, but if I ramp up my training frequency I get the other effects of overtraining in that I become sluggish, irritable, and generally unpleasant to be around. I may not be constantly sore, but nobody wants to get too close to me when I overtrain because I'm not a fun guy If could train more often, though, I'd probably do it. I just know that I'm one of those guys who needs a day off between every session and usually at least 4-7 days between body parts if I want to feel good about lifting.

[Guest]

Outside of other people not wanting to be around you have you ever tried overtraining extensively then resting more than you otherwise would on your normal routine. This is what always worked best for me. I'd lift pretty much 30 days in a row...if not more. Then I'd take off for a few days and do damn near nothing. Then lift easy for a day...followed by lifting very heavy for a day. After that last heavy day I would often get a PB...sometimes even two days in a row. I think it was when I hit 315 on the bench for the first time that this happend. I maxed(I was a 10lbs PB) one day...then the day after I decided to just screw around and try it again...I actually did 315 for two reps(it was pretty close to my 16 birthday and I was tapering for state championships for track). I only maxed out at 320 but if I didn't try 315 I may have done much more.

[VeganEssentials]

When I trained 6 days/week, it didn't matter if I tried to keep going, I'd end up getting somewhat depressed and lose my motivation (I didn't start to get that way until around 26-27 years old - up to that point I was fine training that much.) I'd get back to the gym and when things didn't go right for me I'd get bummed out and want to call it quits, which to me was a sign that I was burning myself out. If I'm not having fun while I'm training (at least, fun in the sense that I feel good about being in the gym) then I can already feel that my heart is not in it and I give up easily. I've found that I CAN train 5-6 days/week if every other workout is a light one, doing weight with no more than 50-60% of my max or doing grip work, stuff like that. But, my CNS gets way too taxed from too much heavy training and it all goes downhill, so as I near my mid-30s I know that I've got to take more time off to make it work. Younger people shouldn't have as much of a problem, but once the 30s come, I think that more people find that they can't keep up the brutal training as often, at least myself and some of the older guys I know have experienced it. Like I said, if I didn't suffer the negative effects that often manifest in a decreased mental state of sharpness and a generally bad mood, I'd be in the gym a lot more often simply because I like training.

[Guest]

No sense in not training so much if it isn't fun. Me myself don't have as much fun if I don't overtrain...even if I sometimes sacrifice optimal performance. I peaked really well a few times but I think my addiction to overtraining has screwed me on a few occations. Even when I can't more I feel like I need to train...which is why I'll work any muscle that isn't sore on a day I don't feel like I can do any functional excersizes(thank goodness my abs recover so quick from the volume I do...otherwise I don't know what I'd do on those days)

[LongTimeVegan]

I feel REALLY good when I'm lifting 6-days a week!!!

 

I find it harder to motivate when I take lots of days off (eg: every other day). Maybe this will change when I'm squatting/deadlifting a million pounds like VeganEssentials does...

 

I do feel like my testosterone gets a little out of control during one part of my workout cycle that is particularly intense. I always feel REALLY agressive for those two weeks! Luckily thats only about 1/3 of the time I'm working out.

 

-Chris

[hsorlando]

I go to the gym 6 days a week, and I almost never get really sore. Right now is the first time in like 2 months that I'm feeling it in my legs. I also want to add that I push myself hard too, so I know I'm not taking it easy. I'm just glad to know this is normal because I was starting to wonder if I was doing something wrong in that I wasn't constantly sore from lifting weights. I'd say that in the 6 days of workouts I do some sort of strength training 6 times, and some sort of cardio activity 5 times. Some of my workouts are both strength training,and cardio.

[kurtjs]

Personally I think overtraining can be felt mentally as well as physically.

 

But as you train longer, your body will produce less and less lactic acid over time, so you may not feel soreness in your muscles as much, even if you're getting a good workout.

 

I'm sorry to be the one to shatter the world that everyone lives in . . . BUT LACTIC ACID DOES NOT CAUSE DOMS (delayed onset muscle soreness ~ the soreness that you feel 24-48 hours after a workout).

 

Case in point, how many people have gone on a run or bike ride and felt the "burn" in their legs. Lots of people . . . right? That burn is lactic acid and yes, the more you train the less lactic acid your body will produce at that same intensity. But I bet most people woke up the next day after that burning run and were not sore!! It is a very old myth that lactic acid causes DOMS. Lactic acid cause acute muscle soreness, which stops at the cessation of the exercise. If you have ever wanted to know about DOMS and muscle damage just do a PubMed search or google scholar search on Dr. Priscilla M. Clarkson from UMASS Amherst (very bright women).

 

To get back to the original question, just because a muscle isn't sore the next day doesn't mean that it hasn't been stimulated. There are still molecular changes that will occur from being overloaded, which will result in increases in strength and muscle fiber size (hypertrophy). Just lift hard in the gym and if your not sore, so be it, if you are progressing in weight and workload the body will respond.

 

And I agree with everyone else, each person's recovery time is different and workout tolerances are different. If you are still lifting heavier each session, sleeping well, staying hungry, staying horney, and a bunch of other signs, then you're not overtraining.

[Guest]

I've definitely had that soreness the next day. And more often than not I'm more sore two days after a hard day than I am the day after. And its definitely that same lactic acid feeling...even when I'm just walking.

[LongTimeVegan]

I'm like that too... I'm usually minimally sore the next day, and day two is when I really feel it.

[kurtjs]

I think I opened up the wrong can of worms. The causes of muscle sorness are still unknown. It appears to be a combination of factors.

 

1: J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 1994 Sep;34(3):203-16.Links

Exercise-induced muscle pain, soreness, and cramps.Miles MP, Clarkson PM.

Department of Exercise Science, University of Massachusetts, Amherst.

 

The three types of pain related to exercise are 1) pain experienced during or immediately following exercise, 2) delayed onset muscle soreness, and 3) pain induced by muscle cramps. Each is characterized by a different time course and different etiology. Pain perceived during exercise is considered to result from a combination of factors including acids, ions, proteins, and hormones. Although it is commonly believed that lactic acid is responsible for this pain, evidence suggests that it is not the only factor. However, no single factor has ever been identified. Delayed onset muscle soreness develops 24-48 hours after strenuous exercise biased toward eccentric (muscle lengthening) muscle actions or strenuous endurance events like a marathon. Soreness is accompanied by a prolonged strength loss, a reduced range of motion, and elevated levels of creatine kinase in the blood. These are taken as indirect indicators of muscle damage, and biopsy analysis has documented damage to the contractile elements. The exact cause of the soreness response is not known but thought to involve an inflammatory reaction to the damage. Muscle cramps are sudden, intense, electrically active contractions elicited by motor neuron hyperexcitability. Although it is commonly assumed that cramps during exercise are the result of fluid electrolyte imbalance induced by sweating, two studies have not supported this. Moreover, participants in occupations that require chronic use of a muscle but do not elicit profuse sweating, such as musicians, often experience cramps. Fluid electrolyte imbalance may cause cramps if there is profuse prolonged sweating such as that found in working in a hot environment. Thus, despite the common occurrence of pain associated with exercise, the exact cause of these pains remains a mystery.

PMID: 7830383 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

 

I love this stuff.

[kurtjs]

Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness: Treatment Strategies and Performance Factors.

 

Review Article

 

Sports Medicine. 33(2):145-164, 2003.

Cheung, Karoline 1; Hume, Patria A 1; Maxwell, Linda 2

Abstract:

Delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS) is a familiar experience for the elite or novice athlete. Symptoms can range from muscle tenderness to severe debilitating pain. The mechanisms, treatment strategies, and impact on athletic performance remain uncertain, despite the high incidence of DOMS. DOMS is most prevalent at the beginning of the sporting season when athletes are returning to training following a period of reduced activity. DOMS is also common when athletes are first introduced to certain types of activities regardless of the time of year. Eccentric activities induce micro-injury at a greater frequency and severity than other types of muscle actions. The intensity and duration of exercise are also important factors in DOMS onset. Up to six hypothesised theories have been proposed for the mechanism of DOMS, namely: lactic acid, muscle spasm, connective tissue damage, muscle damage, inflammation and the enzyme efflux theories. However, an integration of two or more theories is likely to explain muscle soreness. DOMS can affect athletic performance by causing a reduction in joint range of motion, shock attenuation and peak torque. Alterations in muscle sequencing and recruitment patterns may also occur, causing unaccustomed stress to be placed on muscle ligaments and tendons. These compensatory mechanisms may increase the risk of further injury if a premature return to sport is attempted.

 

A number of treatment strategies have been introduced to help alleviate the severity of DOMS and to restore the maximal function of the muscles as rapidly as possible. Nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs have demonstrated dosage-dependent effects that may also be influenced by the time of administration. Similarly, massage has shown varying results that may be attributed to the time of massage application and the type of massage technique used. Cryotherapy, stretching, homeopathy, ultrasound and electrical current modalities have demonstrated no effect on the alleviation of muscle soreness or other DOMS symptoms. Exercise is the most effective means of alleviating pain during DOMS, however the analgesic effect is also temporary. Athletes who must train on a daily basis should be encouraged to reduce the intensity and duration of exercise for 1-2 days following intense DOMS-inducing exercise. Alternatively, exercises targeting less affected body parts should be encouraged in order to allow the most affected muscle groups to recover. Eccentric exercises or novel activities should be introduced progressively over a period of 1 or 2 weeks at the beginning of, or during, the sporting season in order to reduce the level of physical impairment and/or training disruption. There are still many unanswered questions relating to DOMS, and many potential areas for future research.

[Guest]

If those tests show its not known why this happens I wouldn't really rule out lactic acid. I think thats a bad idea. Personally I think it does have something to do with it. There's a thing called soda loading(borderline illegal under the IOC but pretty much untestable so nobody really cares) that athletes use to basically neutralize lactic acid. Its been done for many decades with success. I can't see this working so well if lactic acid didn't have a major role.