Protein powder comparative amino acid analysis

[Troy]

I hope that some of our questions regarding the best amino acid profile will be answered in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Amino-Acids-Proteins-Athlete-Nutrition/dp/1420043803

 

It's the second edition and focuses on bodybuilders and powerlifters, supposedly. I have not yet ordered it but will be doing so soon.

 

Troy,

Thanks for putting together the comparative analysis. I've done it myself but never on an easy-to-read spreadsheet. Nice work.

 

Good find DV, I'll have to check Borders or Barnes and Noble and sit and give it a read someday... I don't have an extra hundo sittin around to spend on the book, but I wish I did... I really wanna read it.

[DV]

I just ordered it and it's now out of stock for awhile. Unfortunately, the price probably won't drop, even for the used books. Since it appears to not be written for the average lay person, I doubt it will come out in paperback. I tried finding the 1st edition in our library (which is huge here) but had no luck. Maybe a university with a sports medicine program or exercise physiology program would carry it.

[Troy]

I'm going to check with my alma mater, University of Wisconsin La Crosse, they have a great Exercise and Sports Science Program with emphasis on Fitness and Athletic Training... the only downfall I see is that the book was written 10 years ago, do you think that makes a difference as far as progress in the field... either way, I think it will be a great read, Lucky..! I will be expecting a full review!

Edited December 9, 2007 by Troy

[rdandrew]

cool post - thanks.

[DV]

Troy,

 

The 1st edition was written in 1997 but the 2nd edition (which I linked to) was published November 30, 2007. I held off on purchasing the 1st edition when I found out a new one was in the works. You might only find the 1st edition on any library shelves at this time. I wonder if any programs use this as a textbook?

[LongTimeVegan]

That book sound REALLY interesting!

 

Troy, I see your point about the amino totals being the same, combining the same ratio of proteins every day. Really the hemp protein is the only one that has any additional nutritional value (omega 3,6,9). I guess another major reason I really like having hemp and rice protein in the mix is because it causes me way less digestive "excitement" than Soy alone. I have not used Gemma extensively yet, since I just opened my first bag last night, but my guess is that it induces gas just like soy? I am actually inclined to pay a little more and even consume slightly larger quantities of total protein if it will save me (and those around me ) from being gassy all the time.

 

But back to the subject of tweaking ratios...

 

This could be a very tedius task as we have 18 different aminos, making up 18 different percentages to take into account.

Will you forward me a copy of the spreadsheet so I can play with it? I think I could probably make it so you could at least manually enter in your ratios and the spreadsheet would calculate the amino totals for the mix you entered. I'm not talking a fancy "slider-interface-thingy" like truprotein has, or something that will figure out the ratio for you, but if you entered in "80%Gemma, 10%Soy, 10%Hemp" or "75%Gemma, 20% Rice, 5% Hemp, etc... I have a pretty good idea of how to make it give you individual totals for each amino acid in the aggregate mix.

 

I'd start from scratch, but I'm just way too lazy to type in all that data you've already entered.

 

-Chris

[Guest]

I doubt anyone here is really short on any of these amino acids since mostly everyone is eating more than enough protein...even just from diet and not from supplements...which is why I think the ratios are most important. I just wish we knew what they were and I don't think we will honestly know for a very long time. However more than anything I'd like to know which amino acids we need to make sure we don't eat too much of since eating tons of the percieved good ratios can mean eating way too much of a few aminos that may be very harmful.

[LongTimeVegan]

I just wish we knew what they were and I don't think we will honestly know for a very long time. However more than anything I'd like to know which amino acids we need to make sure we don't eat too much of since eating tons of the percieved good ratios can mean eating way too much of a few aminos that may be very harmful.

This is really annoying because I don't think we'll even have this information in our lifetime. I totally agree that it's plausable that there may be aminos that are harmful to human longevity. Even if someone does do a study on this, it's likely to be done with animals, so who knows how it would translate to humans (in addition to all the thousands of animals they would have to "over-nourish" and "under-nourish" using endless variations of aminos ).

 

Even if they did study this in humans, I think it would have to be on a purely "supplemental" basis (studying supplementation is okay, but depriving humans of particular aminos for an experiment is shaky from an "ethical" and "legal" standpoint).

 

I imagine someone could try and extrapolate data about aminos consumed by various indigenous cultures where everyone eats basically the same thing, and lives a very similar lifestyle, but as far as people living in modern society (bodybuilders, athletes, etc.), there are so many variables to try and control when studying something like this...

[Aaron]

http://www3.addall.com/New/submitNew.cgi?query=1420043803&type=ISBN&location=&state=&dispCurr=USD

 

I just scanned this thread - Looks like some good info and interesting stuff. I'll have to come back and check it out more when I get a chance.

 

The link above should take you to the addall search page for that book. Might be cheaper than amazon.

[Troy]

The 1st edition was written in 1997 but the 2nd edition (which I linked to) was published November 30, 2007. I held off on purchasing the 1st edition when I found out a new one was in the works. You might only find the 1st edition on any library shelves at this time. I wonder if any programs use this as a textbook?

 

Good to hear, I clicked on the "look inside" thing on Amazon and saw the copyright was 97... my mistake....

 

I guess another major reason I really like having hemp and rice protein in the mix is because it causes me way less digestive "excitement" than Soy alone. I have not used Gemma extensively yet, since I just opened my first bag last night, but my guess is that it induces gas just like soy? I am actually inclined to pay a little more and even consume slightly larger quantities of total protein if it will save me (and those around me ) from being gassy all the time.

 

 

Regardless which kind of protein, I've always got some "excitement" going on, yikes... Right now I am mainly consuming Nutribiotic's Rice because I ran out of Gemma... just ordered 16 more lbs, should be here shortly...

 

Will you forward me a copy of the spreadsheet so I can play with it? I think I could probably make it so you could at least manually enter in your ratios and the spreadsheet would calculate the amino totals for the mix you entered. I'm not talking a fancy "slider-interface-thingy" like truprotein has, or something that will figure out the ratio for you, but if you entered in "80%Gemma, 10%Soy, 10%Hemp" or "75%Gemma, 20% Rice, 5% Hemp, etc... I have a pretty good idea of how to make it give you individual totals for each amino acid in the aggregate mix.

 

I'd start from scratch, but I'm just way too lazy to type in all that data you've already entered.

 

Step ahead of you there, the spreadsheet already is setup to do that. All you have to do is plug in the percentages...50% rice, 20% Gemma, etc... and it will automatically calculate the percentage and amount of each end resulting amino acid of the mixture. I can forward it to you tomorrow, as it is not on the computer I'm currently at.

 

 

I doubt anyone here is really short on any of these amino acids since mostly everyone is eating more than enough protein...even just from diet and not from supplements...which is why I think the ratios are most important. I just wish we knew what they were and I don't think we will honestly know for a very long time. However more than anything I'd like to know which amino acids we need to make sure we don't eat too much of since eating tons of the percieved good ratios can mean eating way too much of a few aminos that may be very harmful.

 

This is an excellent point. Might I add more confusion to the mix...? OK, so even though we are looking in search of the ultimate amino acid profile, if and when this ever happens, you wouldn't be able to make a protein powder out of that exact profile... why? Because you would have to take into consideration your amino acid profiles from your other protein sources during the day... such as protein from fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts, seeds, and obviously other proteins throughout the day, once you have this complicated mess of a profile figured out, you could then devise a protein powder to fill in the gaps. Thus giving your "pool" the "ideal" ratio on hand for your body to use. So even though a big step may be finding out what that profile is (if that ever happens), an even bigger step is creating an individualized protein based off of YOUR personalized diet.

 

Who wants to give up on this topic now?

[CollegeB]

Troy good work. Also the ON BCAA, how is it derived? Synthetic?

[LongTimeVegan]

CollegeB - It's the same stuff Vegan Essentials sells... "Optimum Nutrition BCAA powder".

 

Troy - I can't wait to play with your spreadsheet, thanks in advance.

 

I'm off to the gym... I'll be back later to update my training log.

 

-Chris

[Troy]

Troy - I can't wait to play with your spreadsheet, thanks in advance.

 

Would anyone else like the amino acid profile spreadsheet to play with... just PM me your email address I will send it out today...

[Guest]

I actually don't even think we need protein powder even as a bodybuilder. If we knew the perfect profile why not eat the food to get it. I ate 300g a day(as a minimum) as a vegan for years and took in 8-12000 calories of food. There's no sense in not getting the other benefits of the food. I think the major factor is that people need to eat like they train. If you want to get huge you've gotta lift beyond your comfort level...the same goes for eating food. I do have differing opinions from many here on how much protein you need in total to gain muscle but I don't disagree on the idea of taking in tons of calories.

[Troy]

If we knew the perfect profile why not eat the food to get it.

Now thats hitting the nail on the head.

 

I ate 300g a day(as a minimum) as a vegan for years and took in 8-12000 calories of food.

 

Great Scott!!! That means the rest of your 6,800-10,800 other calories came from carbs and fat... I can't imagine putting away that much food... what were you tipping the scales at? and what was your physique like... bulky? lean? chubby?

 

There's no sense in not getting the other benefits of the food.

 

This comment makes me want to refute, but I can't think of anything that would refute it. Well put veganpotter.

[VeganDude]

I actually don't even think we need protein powder even as a bodybuilder. If we knew the perfect profile why not eat the food to get it. I ate 300g a day(as a minimum) as a vegan for years and took in 8-12000 calories of food. There's no sense in not getting the other benefits of the food. I think the major factor is that people need to eat like they train. If you want to get huge you've gotta lift beyond your comfort level...the same goes for eating food. I do have differing opinions from many here on how much protein you need in total to gain muscle but I don't disagree on the idea of taking in tons of calories.

 

I completely agree with this post.

[Guest]

I cycled my weight twice every year for track season. I'd be a pretty chunky 320(not overly fat though) and cut down to 280 twice a year. This way I could focus on power in the preseason and focus on speed later in the year...the power I lost was well worth it for the speed I gained. Anyway each time it got harder since I had more muscle and less fat each time around. The first year I did this I was still pretty fat after I cut down buy by college I was maybe just a tiny bit chubby after cutting weight(but barely)...in the way an average sized NFL defensive lineman looks. Oddly enough I'd get 30-40lbs back on in less than 2 months...a decent amount of the weight gained and lost was water but regaurdless of where it all came from...it worked very well.

[wfvegan]

Thanks for doing this Troy. Interesting information!

 

Anybody tried doing an analysis on Vega?

[wfvegan]

Thanks for doing this Troy. Interesting information!

 

Anybody tried doing an analysis on Vega?

[Troy]

I don't know if the makers have the amino acid profile or not, its a mixture of several different ingredients, not just one protein.

[joelbct]

Interesting... this is the sum total of what I know about Gemma, from wikipedia and my prior knowledge of supermodels:

 

Gemma, or Alpha Coronae Borealis, a binary star in the constellation Corona Borealis.

 

Gemma, An asexual reproductive structure in plants and fungi.

 

A genus of clam (Gemma) in the family Veneridae; see amethyst gem clam.

 

Gas phase Electrophoretic Mobility Molecular Analysis (GEMMA), which produces a beam of multiply charged ions by electrospray ionization and transforms them into singly charged ions or neutral particles, separates these particles according to electrophoretic mobility, and records the particle count at each EM.

 

Gemma Frisius (1508–1555), a Frisian mathematician, cartographer and instrument maker.

 

Gemma Ward, Australian-born, baby-faced supermodel.

 

 

So today I learn, Gemma is also something you can eat, providing an excellent protein profile? What is it? Where does it come from?

[Troy]

Gemma is also something you can eat, providing an excellent protein profile? What is it? Where does it come from?

 

Gemma Protein Isolate Powder is extremely high in Leucine, Arginine, and Glutamine, along with a balanced amino profile. It is clean tasting, and mixes extremely smoothly with a lighter texture than Whey powders.

 

Gemma Protein Isolate is derived and isolated from peas and its natural protein fraction, which possesses a low level of denaturing and is very soluable (mixes very well). Gemma is NON-GMO, low allergenic and gluten free.

 

As dairy prices continue to rise, vegetable-based products like the new Gemma Protein will begin to change the protein industry.

 

The bioavailability of this product is at approximately 90-95%.

[Laura]

That chart is awesome. Thanks for posting it.

[TheLeetOne]

I can't believe that I'm only finding this topic now, haha... this subject is something I've been researching / experimenting with for a long time now. It's funny actually because I have a similar spreadsheet of my own that I put together to compare hemp, rice, and pea (gemma) protein, but I never took it quite to the same extent as Troy's.

 

There's been too much said already for me to go back and try to reply to each individual post (I'm at work right now), but my understanding is that our general consensus here is correct in assuming that the ideal ratio is more important than the total amount of aminos present per gram of protein powder.

 

I also found it troubling that there's no real scientific consensus on the ideal amino acid profile for muscle building, but in lack of such a guideline I've been assuming that a combination of 4:3:2 ratio of pea:hemp:rice protein powder is 'ideal' based on the book 'The Thrive Diet' by Brendan Brazier. In the book he vaguely and indirectly mentions his experiments with finding an ideal AA profile lead him to believe that these three together in a similar ratio (I'll have to double-check the ratio, as it's been awhile since I read through the book) formed an exceptional AA profile. I realize this is a really loose assumption, but it's all I've had to work with. It may hold some merit though, as he has a large support base of doctors who help him with his formulations.

 

Looking forward to seeing more on this topic; thanks for bringing it up, Troy!

Edited December 21, 2007 by TheLeetOne

[veggieprincess]

Troy,

 

I think true protein needs to start paying us for how much free advertising we give them on this site.

 

Hey, pure protein sources at an affordable price, available in a food grade bag so I don't have to hurt the environment with plastic containers, create your own flavor combinations.... really, what more could you ask

 

 

 

p.s. thanks for putting this chart together - very helpful. When I'm rich and famous I'm gonna hire you (or maybe you'll get there first, we'll see, ha, ha)