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Is anyone else kind of getting tired of vegans?


robert
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I've seen that too. The very laziest complain the most sometimes...however I do know a few hard core activists that think everyone who works and makes more than enough to survive on is being petty and needs to donate every second they have to the cause after bills are paid. They do a lot of good but would really hate pretty much everyone here(me for sure) because we spend time working out when they think we should be protesting or volunteering somewhere.

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I've seen that too. The very laziest complain the most sometimes..

 

IMHO, the people who I have seen like that are not so much lazy as they are afraid to do the work of spreading AR, which is mostly approaching people they don't know to persuade them. It is simple stage fright, like having problems giving a public speech. For some reason they either never see that or never put in the gumption to just get over it.

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Oh for sure. My ex was extremely compassionate but too afraid to talk to anyone about anything. She had an extreme case of a social anxiety disorder and from recent findings its seemed to have gotten worse. Unfortunately I think most of these people are in general...outspoken kids when someone confronts them...they just aren't active in being the initiator...or even active in ever putting themselves in that kind of situation.

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..outspoken kids when someone confronts them...they just aren't active in being the initiator...or even active in ever putting themselves in that kind of situation.

 

Stage fright......like I wrote. It is very easy to give a hard time ( "confront" ) to people you are familiar with who are a bit of a captive audience like coworkers, friends and family.

 

It takes slighlty ( only slightly ) more courage to go out in public and approach a stranger in a positive way to try to persuade them.

 

That is why you read so many stories from web board vegans about hounding their family and friends for years...even though those people have expressed disinterest....instead of going into the streets for a "much easier sell" to convert open minded strangers in a crowd.

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One of our forum members gave me a call last night to understand a little more about where I'm coming from.

 

I don't want to waste my finger strength by typing but I'll admit I was a bit vague, figuring most would "get" what is wrong with many vegans.

 

I said it as simply as I could, and I'll speak for myself and not say "we" and assume everyone agrees with me:

 

.....

 

I feel that the goal of the vegan movement is to create more vegans. That is as basic as it gets.

 

How do we do that?

 

We make veganism desirable and attractive to non-vegans. I believe that we do that through living as positive role models.

 

I know that to be true because I have been a vegan for 13 years and have tried many ways of influencing people and I've witnessed other individuals, groups, organizations trying to do the same thing.

 

I've evaluated what has worked best, and I've concluded that we need better representation, more positive, consistent representation if we're going to grow the movement and create more vegans, which I stated is the goal I believe the movement embraces.

 

Think about other growing movements. There are always attractive and desirable results for converting to their lifestyle or believing in their message. That is just the way it works, all across the board from religion to sports. We say, "I want to be like that person." Or, "I want to belong to that group." because we see something that attracts us to a specific concept or lifestyle.

 

Change occurs when people see a good reason to change. Growing movements have leaders and role models who many in the same movement look up to.

 

I try to fill that role because I believe I can do it better than most, and that is my responsibility and commitment to this lifestyle and this vegan movement.

 

During my phone conversation last night, I simply stated that all I am really asking is that people who represent this lifestyle do it in a positive way, have the goal of creating more vegans in the back or their heads when they decide what actions to take, and actively try to create positive change.

 

In my opinion, a fit, healthy, happy, positive, enthusiastic role model for the movement is one of the best things we could possibly ask for.

 

An angry, nit-picking, harassing, policing, condesending, anti-this, anti-that, burden on other people approach doesn't really appeal to the mainstream audience we're trying to positively influence.

 

That is just my opinion and I'm going keep on doing what I'm doing because I believe it is one of the most effective ways to grow a movement that I believe in.

 

I am whatever you say I am. Positive or Negative. It doesn't bother me, because I know what I'm doing. If they hate, then let em' hate, and watch the vegans pile up.

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I've heard born again Christians, republicans, etc ... say similar things about their communities as vegans do about theirs.

It isn't veganism, it is human nature.

 

Absolutely true. I'm on two mailing lists and a message board for the ultramarathon community. If someone read the stuff that's said in those discussions, they would think all ultrarunners are tightly wound, mean-spirited, total asshats. In real life, I've never met a more relaxed, supportive, or friendly community.

 

I second this !

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Robert, that is exactly how I feel on the movement. If someone asks me about veganism or I am compelled to talk about it for some reason, I merely state what it is to me and move on. I try to give it as positive an image as I can manage. In-your-face activists are one of the primary reason it took me so long to become vegan, so I recognize the value in being kind and open-minded with people about the lifestyle. If you insult someone and rip on his or her lifestyle with a vengeance, that person is going to become defensive and shut down, hearing nary a word of what you are saying. Being positive is the most powerful engine for change.

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I think there's a place for all types of activists. I'm here being loud because we're among vegans. I'm not loud amongst non vegans by any means and the few forum members that have spent real time with me away from a vegan community know that this is a fact. But at the same time I know that aggressive activism(that many here don't like) is what got me. I probably would have never listened to quiet protesters and would have never gained interest in veganism from mild mannered people unless I had a really good friend that was vegan....unfortunately I didn't and most people don't. Its kinda like the Presidential race. Everyone hates dirty politics...however it influences nearly everyone...even the people against it.

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My coworker just brought some fortune cookies to work to share. (They actually were vegan - at least vegan by accident) Anyway, my fortune read "It is easier to fight for your principles than it is to live up to them". While I don't really see that statement as a "fortune" I felt like sharing it here. To go further into this quote I think it is assumed that living up to principles is more effective than fighting for principles. What it comes down to is, similar to what Robert said, the best thing we can do is to live up to our own personal principles and be the best positive role models of those principles we can. Let's spend our precious time focusing on that type of action and not the less effective and more negative and damaging "fighting".

 

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I think handing out pamphlets and everything like that is fine. Any more peaceful type of education is productive. It is when people become insulting when talking about their morals that others shut them out and cease to listen in the slightest. Like Potter said, there are some people who will only be reached by the more militant types, but the number of people who are completely turned off by such an approach may outnumber the converts gained by such an approach.

 

Nice fortune Jessifly. It is a perfect fit to this discussion and is an excellent summary. It seems more important to some to be righteous about their morals than to actually live a life exemplary of them.

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Not all but I think a large percentage of those turned off are the types that will never ever consider it to begin with. Some people are so anti change that they don't want to see people fighting for anything at all. As for leafletting I think it really only works when its combined with polite conversation. I think its quite obvious to everyone here thats been a regular leafletter(especially on the east coast) that the majority of them wind up in the trash when that person walks around the corner...if not a lot of them just wind up on the ground if they are anti animal and anti environment too. It really only seems productive when there are people that are actually willing to stop. Oddly enough on the west coast(especially in Victoria, BC) you get at least 10x the people willing to stop and talk if you give them something to read. On the east coast people are just terrible.

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Yeah, I agree, it definitely helps if you have a conversation with the person. You have to "hook" them with some dialog to get them to actually put forth the effort to read something. Different people are affected in different ways, so it is hard to determine what is the best way to bring about change.

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Hey all y'all...many in this thread already know me, howdy to the rest. =)

 

Thought i'd pop in here (i'm a regular over at VeganFitness.net) and see what was going on, and found this thread to be of particular interest..hope you don't mind me jumping in!

I feel that the goal of the vegan movement is to create more vegans. That is as basic as it gets.

I'm not sure if this is the case....and honestly, this sounds more like the basic goal of a cult, than a worthwhile social justice movement. ;)

 

For me, veganism's basic goal is to work towards the end the exploitation of animals (including humans.) This, at least, is how Donald Watson expressed it when he coined the term 'vegan' back in 1944, something like:

"The word "veganism" denotes a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude — as far as is possible and practical — all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of humans, animals and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals."

I'd argue that *this* is the basic goal of veganism... Getting people to think about this, and act on it, is important as well, but that's not the purpose or goal of veganism...whaddya think Rob?

 

Secondly, i think it's important in communication that people are on the same page when talking about something, like veganism. Watson, i feel, spelled it out very clearly. Other groups, however, seem to have the idea that they can define veganism however they like.

 

Vegan Outreach, as an example, in their Why Vegan? booklets clearly state: "Being vegan isn’t about being perfect or pure—it’s about reducing suffering." (Pg14)

 

It's interesting to note that the definition provided by the founder of veganism, and the Vegan Society of the UK, which he founded to promote this idea, says *nothing* about suffering. Yet this is the message that a group that calls themselves Vegan Outreach choses to present....(and is an interesting topic of discussion, which doesn't necessarily fit here.)

 

There are still arguments about things like honey - is it vegan? (The "Vegan MD" Michael Gregor was trying to make a case to 'allow' honey so that veganism could be considered 'more accessible'...hopefully he's given up this foolishness.)

 

Leather and silk, and other animal products seem to be tolerated, confusing the message.

 

Veganism is often reduced to a 'diet'. It's more accurately described as a 'lifestyle' many times...but above, i think it's most accurately defined as a *philosophy*. It's an outlook, or perspective. Not unlike feminism or anti-racism. (Anti-speciesism, for those who've looked into the subject a bit more.)

 

If this were 200 years ago, those of us that chose to boycott the use of human slaves, and the things they were forced to produce, i'm doubtful we'd allow for our actions to be defined as a "lifestyle". The opposition to racism is much bigger and more holistic than that, and much more important. It would clearly be a philosophy.

 

So why is the opposition of non-human slaves not recognized this way? (Well, i'd blame groups like PETA and Vegan Outreach, but that's me. ;)

 

The point i'm trying to make is that we all need to begin by being on the same page. What exactly *is* veganism? Once that is understood and agreed upon, we can move forward. I think a lot of the problems we find in the movement is that so many are defining it in so many ways...and sadly, i think it most often results in the reduced significance of the term.

 

Watson was first and foremost a peace activist, and viewed veganism as being a part of the social justice movement. I think that is truly revolutionary and inspiring, and i think veganism fits perfectly with the ideas of peace and respect, and social justice.

 

This is rarely presented, from what i see, but fundamentally important in our activism... Thoughts?

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Hey all y'all...many in this thread already know me, howdy to the rest. =)

 

Thought i'd pop in here (i'm a regular over at VeganFitness.net) and see what was going on, and found this thread to be of particular interest..hope you don't mind me jumping in!

 

 

Hey I know you. Good to see you on here !

Make sure to introduce yourself on the first thread.

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I feel that the goal of the vegan movement is to create more vegans. That is as basic as it gets.

I'm not sure if this is the case....and honestly, this sounds more like the basic goal of a cult, than a worthwhile social justice movement.

 

For me, veganism's basic goal is to work towards the end the exploitation of animals (including humans.) This, at least, is how Donald Watson expressed it when he coined the term 'vegan' back in 1944

 

I think that what Rob means is that vegans want animal suffering and exploitation to stop, and a good way to do that is to get other people to stop causing animal suffering (become vegan). It's nothing to do with cults, it's just wanting people to stop causing suffering. Rob is describing in this topic how he wants to be a positive role model, to get non-vegans interested in veganism, to reduce animal suffering.

 

You are correct that the definition of veganism doesn't include anything along the lines of "wants to turn as many people vegan as possible" - but I think it's a logical aim that vegans will have. People who are against animal cruelty will want other people to also be against animal cruelty. When asked the question "do you want more people to be vegan?" - a vegan will always answer "yes". They won't answer "No, I think there are enough vegans already" or "No, I think there should be less" - they will always want more vegans - or more specfically - less non-vegans, less animal cruelty.

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In some ways veganism is a cult but not in negative terms. Just as the definition of vegan is chaging the terms cult has as well. The word CULT isn't supposed to be a bad thing but people are making it out to be that way.

 

Cult(Wikipedia):

 

Cult roughly refers to a cohesive social group devoted to beliefs or practices that the surrounding culture considers outside the mainstream, with a notably positive or negative popular perception.

 

I think with this definition we are definitely a cult and will be one for at least 100years...even if in 100 years there are billions of vegans on the planet. It'll still be new relative to the timeline of other movements.

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Hah... well yes, strictly speaking it is a cult, but that word now has negative connotations. When people say cult, I think they generally mean that it's like a mindless belief that the people have, and that they're controlled by organisers - who have weird or negative motives.

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Hey everyone,

 

Jessi - thanks, me too! =)

 

Tashi - will do when i've got more time.

 

Richard - yep, i get where Rob was coming from, but i think it had some relevance to this topic, and was important to point out in order to really progress the subject... You're stating the obvious -- of course we want more vegans, lets focus more on how to get that to happen. ;)

 

Potter - i wouldn't turn to Wikipedia for definitions, tho generally are good references.. Answers.com is probably a better option for definitions:

 

http://www.answers.com/cult

 

cult (kŭlt) pronunciation

n.

 

1.

 

a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader.

 

b. The followers of such a religion or sect.

 

2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual.

 

3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual.

 

4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease.

 

5.

 

a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing.

 

b. The object of such devotion.

 

6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest.

Note the multiple references to religion...and religion of course being a system of *beliefs* (ie, not rational and grounded thought) relating to supernatural powers...which veganism definitely is not. ;)

 

I don't think veganism (at least, the way i'm trying to describe it) could be considered a cult by any common definition....nice try tho. =P

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Hmmm, that Groucho Marx saying comes to mind..."I would not join any club that would have someone like me as a member"

 

I don't think veganism (at least, the way i'm trying to describe it) could be considered a cult by any common definition....nice try tho. =P

 

I agree. I think it's a lifestyle choice, plain and simple. I no longer drink, but I don't consider non-drinkers a cult. Or non-church goers. Or Mountain Bikers. (Ok, well maybe mountain bikers, but only the "obsessive devotion" part. )

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